Hello - That supposes an adversity to LOVE as it should be! Terrible isn't it! The Love of Money---- Kind Regards Roy LD Cox WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 (And All That!) http://www.sanhs.org -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 26 January 2007 19:44 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness What's interesting about your reply is that I've often run across situations where a younger son did not marry until very late in life. I can't say why, but I can speculate ! Let's say these thoughts go through the head. My elder brother will inherit everything, so I can't myself get a *good* match since I have no prospects. The best I can do is an older widow, or a illegimate daughter or the daughter of some poor yeoman. Maybe I should wait to see if maybe my elder brother will d.s.p.m. (i.e. without male heirs) and then I'll be next in line for the property and I can get myself a high-status wife. Just random speculation :) Will ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Will, That's a very interesting reply. I think I'm looking at an age of about 10, but it's difficult to totally prove. The Stephen Fells I'm looking at didn't marry until 1615, whereas his siblings were married in the late 1580's-1590's. It could well be that he was the offspring of an older father, whose previous offspring were already well grown, marrying for a second time to a much younger wife. I have other documents which say he is the brother of my ancestor, but the time frames are out of synch but, of course, it does happen. My oldest daughter is 21 years older than her younger siblings. Much to ponder on. Kind regards, Yvonne >> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 26 January 2007 18:44 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness In a message dated 1/26/07 10:38:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << We're interested in one of the witnesses, Stephen Fells, but I'm wondering what would be the youngest age he would have been allowed to put his name to it? What was considered to be the age of 'maturity' in this time-frame? >> Ha! It's a matter of no *little* debate over at Gen-Med. (that's a pun) Some people believe you could be as young as seven. CP has *apparent* (and I say apparent) examples of people getting *livery* on their lands as young as perhaps 17. Personally I favor the idea that a male had to be 21 to "come of age" and that we'll perhaps *fix* these things as we go along and get more research done. I wouldn't be adverse to allowing a witness to be as young as perhaps 13 however. Will Johnson <<

Dear Ian, Thank you very much indeed for your reply, it does indeed help and seems to fit with my map. Having looked at a 'sideways' view of the area, Bidston, it certainly has hillocks and dips, which fits perfectly. I do indeed know of the Scandinavian influence. One of my Wirral Sherlock cousins has done a DNA test, which does show a marked descendancy from Scandinavia. Where's that horned hat:-)) Thank you again, Best regards, Yvonne >> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Dr Ian Buckley Sent: 26 January 2007 16:37 To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] HOOLE As to the first element in these fiele names, it is more likely to derive from the Anglo-Saxon 'holh' meaning a hollow, or dip in the land. The other possibility is that your names derive from 'hulu' which means huts or cabins (this is the word from which our modern word 'hovel' derives. The Wirral, as I'm sure you know, has a rich tapestry of place names, with frequent Scandinavian elements and quite a number of Celtic ones too. It is not impossible that parts of the names you are interested in predate the AS period. In Celtic place names 'hel' can mean a road or track, and 'hal' salt. Hope this helps Ian <<

Dear all, Does anyone have an idea of what age you would need to be to witness a document in November 1596? My group of researching cousins have a document dealing with a contested lease of Bidston Manor, Wirral. We're interested in one of the witnesses, Stephen Fells, but I'm wondering what would be the youngest age he would have been allowed to put his name to it? What was considered to be the age of 'maturity' in this time-frame? Kind regards, Yvonne

How about "loveinge" cousin? Nancy McLaughlin Burwood, Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] "loucinge Cosen" > In a will I find this phrase "to my loucinge Cosen" > > What is a lozenge cousin or whatever this word is? > Thanks > Will Johnson > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 - Release Date: 1/25/2007 > 3:32 p.m. > >

As to the first element in these fiele names, it is more likely to derive from the Anglo-Saxon 'holh' meaning a hollow, or dip in the land. The other possibility is that your names derive from 'hulu' which means huts or cabins (this is the word from which our modern word 'hovel' derives. The Wirral, as I'm sure you know, has a rich tapestry of place names, with frequent Scandinavian elements and quite a number of Celtic ones too. It is not impossible that parts of the names you are interested in predate the AS period. In Celtic place names 'hel' can mean a road or track, and 'hal' salt. Hope this helps Ian

What's interesting about your reply is that I've often run across situations where a younger son did not marry until very late in life. I can't say why, but I can speculate ! Let's say these thoughts go through the head. My elder brother will inherit everything, so I can't myself get a *good* match since I have no prospects. The best I can do is an older widow, or a illegimate daughter or the daughter of some poor yeoman. Maybe I should wait to see if maybe my elder brother will d.s.p.m. (i.e. without male heirs) and then I'll be next in line for the property and I can get myself a high-status wife. Just random speculation :) Will

Hello, I'm usually just a lurker on this list - gleaning lots of valuable information from the various exchanges. I've recently been working with Manor court records from the East Dereham, Norfolk area. There are two words that keep recurring that I'm having difficulty with, and request the list's assistance in helping me understand. The first is Stey or Stye. It appears in reference to Elsing Stey or Elsing Stye. In later records, the word is written Style. Also used as in Elsing Stey Way. It sounds as if this must be some sort of path as several properties are described as abutting upon Elsing Stey. The 2nd word is Carr. I've found one definition which seems to describe a rocky outcrop, but then a Google Search leads to Dillington Carr which seems to be some unique ecosystem which sounds more like an American Swamp than a rocky outcrop. I appreciate any clues. Thank you very much. Jennifer Clark

In a message dated 1/26/07 10:38:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << We're interested in one of the witnesses, Stephen Fells, but I'm wondering what would be the youngest age he would have been allowed to put his name to it? What was considered to be the age of 'maturity' in this time-frame? >> Ha! It's a matter of no *little* debate over at Gen-Med. (that's a pun) Some people believe you could be as young as seven. CP has *apparent* (and I say apparent) examples of people getting *livery* on their lands as young as perhaps 17. Personally I favor the idea that a male had to be 21 to "come of age" and that we'll perhaps *fix* these things as we go along and get more research done. I wouldn't be adverse to allowing a witness to be as young as perhaps 13 however. Will Johnson

Morning All - Chris has asked me to pass this along, so here it is Cheers - Roy Note: forwarded message attached.

Hi Will It is probably "loueinge Cosen" That is "loving Cousin" in modern terms. Don't forget the "u" and "v" were interchangeable. Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] "loucinge Cosen" In a will I find this phrase "to my loucinge Cosen" What is a lozenge cousin or whatever this word is? Thanks Will Johnson ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 1/25/2007 8:10:46 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: How about "loveinge" cousin? You're the fourth one to respond with that. And yep, that's it. Thanks to everyone who responded. Will

In a will I find this phrase "to my loucinge Cosen" What is a lozenge cousin or whatever this word is? Thanks Will Johnson

Evening All - The name HOOLE in 1860 was recorded as being given to two places, one is a village and township in Plemonstall parish Cheshire, the 2nd a parish in the Preston district of Lancashire. There is also a Hooley Hill village in the Audenshaw division of Ashton-under-Lyne parish Lancashire. The 2nd one consists of a village and two townships, the village being named Much Hoole. The townships are Much Hoole and Little Hoole. >From this it doesn't seem to support the name Hoole meaning high? I would think the name to be a corruption of some very ancient name given to that area of Cheshire and Lancashire maybe in Saxon times??? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 (And All That!) http://www.sanhs.org -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Yvonne Purdy Sent: 25 January 2007 16:43 To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] HOOLE Dear all, >From an old map (c1600s) Wirral, there are a couple of field names which start with Hoole. Hoolerakehey and Hoole Baker Lane. Does Hoole mean 'high'? Thank you for any help. Regards, Yvonne ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear all, >From an old map (c1600s) Wirral, there are a couple of field names which start with Hoole. Hoolerakehey and Hoole Baker Lane. Does Hoole mean 'high'? Thank you for any help. Regards, Yvonne

>From memory, I think I've read in a contemporary lawbook that breaking hedges or ditches was considered a serious offence, one of a long series which carried the death sentence till abolishment in the reign of William IV. Another was the offence of opening somebody elses's mail. Probably rarely applied in later times, but there just in case... John Barton ----- Original Message ----- From: "Polly Rubery" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; "Ian Hancock" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [OEL] hedgebreaker > Hi Ian > > A hedgebreaker had done just what it says - broken (down) a hedge. This > was > probably one put up to surround a new enclosure. Also note that a "hedge" > may in fact have been a post and rail (or similar) fence, or even a wall > in > certain parts of the country. > HTH > Polly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Hancock" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:29 PM > Subject: [OEL] hedgebreaker > > > Crakehall manor court roll, 1698 : Michael Grundell for being a common > hedgebreaker amerced 2s6d. 7 others for the like offence all fined > 2s6d. > Can anyone tell me what they had done? > > Ian Hancock > GlenLodge > Crakehall History http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > __________ NOD32 2004 (20070124) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > >

Has anyone worked out how much in today's money 2s. 6d. would be - say half a year's wage, or more? This is only a guess, but it certainly wasn't peanuts. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yvonne Purdy" <[email protected]> To: "Ian Hancock" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] hedgebreaker > Hi Ian, > > It seemed to take a lot of work to 'lay' a hedge, splitting the hedge down > to it's roots and laying the splints horizontal, branch after branch, > without breaking it down to the base, interweaving it with other growth, > to > make the hedge stock proof, and to ensure it produced enough new growth in > the spring and summer, to keep the stock in. > > If someone came along and 'broke' the hedge, and killed off it's base to > produce the new growth, I'd have called him a lot worse than a common > hedgebreaker!! Hooligan! > > Best regards, > Yvonne > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Ian Hancock > Sent: 24 January 2007 20:30 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [OEL] hedgebreaker > > > Crakehall manor court roll, 1698 : Michael Grundell for being a common > hedgebreaker amerced 2s6d. 7 others for the like offence all fined > 2s6d. > Can anyone tell me what they had done? > > Ian Hancock > GlenLodge > Crakehall History http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html > > > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

One must I suppose wonder what an "Uncommon Hedgebreaker" was ??? Cheers - Roy Ian Hancock <[email protected]> wrote: Crakehall manor court roll, 1698 : Michael Grundell for being a common hedgebreaker amerced 2s6d. 7 others for the like offence all fined 2s6d. Can anyone tell me what they had done? Ian Hancock GlenLodge Crakehall History http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Ian, It seemed to take a lot of work to 'lay' a hedge, splitting the hedge down to it's roots and laying the splints horizontal, branch after branch, without breaking it down to the base, interweaving it with other growth, to make the hedge stock proof, and to ensure it produced enough new growth in the spring and summer, to keep the stock in. If someone came along and 'broke' the hedge, and killed off it's base to produce the new growth, I'd have called him a lot worse than a common hedgebreaker!! Hooligan! Best regards, Yvonne -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Ian Hancock Sent: 24 January 2007 20:30 To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] hedgebreaker Crakehall manor court roll, 1698 : Michael Grundell for being a common hedgebreaker amerced 2s6d. 7 others for the like offence all fined 2s6d. Can anyone tell me what they had done? Ian Hancock GlenLodge Crakehall History http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html

Hi Ian A hedgebreaker had done just what it says - broken (down) a hedge. This was probably one put up to surround a new enclosure. Also note that a "hedge" may in fact have been a post and rail (or similar) fence, or even a wall in certain parts of the country. HTH Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Hancock" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 8:29 PM Subject: [OEL] hedgebreaker Crakehall manor court roll, 1698 : Michael Grundell for being a common hedgebreaker amerced 2s6d. 7 others for the like offence all fined 2s6d. Can anyone tell me what they had done? Ian Hancock GlenLodge Crakehall History http://www.glenlodge.me.uk/crakehallindex.html ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message