I would like very much to associate myself with Roy's sentiments. I have some idea of what her family must be going through and feel for them. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 9:10 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Sandra Lovegrove >I am very grateful for this Judith, whilst I only knew her through our >list; > and for a short time only, her responses were always welcome. > May I express my belated condolences to her family. > > Kind Regards > Roy LD Cox > WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm > Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 > (And > All That!) http://www.sanhs.org > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Judith Werner > Sent: 28 January 2007 18:27 > To: > Subject: [OEL] Sandra Lovegrove > > Many of you have known that Sandra Lovegrove, our resident barrister, > was suffering from cancer. We have missed her input and I have now > found out that Sandra passed away last August. > > In November 2006 her husband Roger put together some photos, poetry and > memories, including a 'penpicture' written by Sandra herself. You > might like to visit at http://www.lovegrove.f9.co.uk/JPoet/ > > We will continue to miss her. > > > Judith Werner > Salt Lake City, Utah, USA > Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > > > > > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am very grateful for this Judith, whilst I only knew her through our list; and for a short time only, her responses were always welcome. May I express my belated condolences to her family. Kind Regards Roy LD Cox WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 (And All That!) http://www.sanhs.org -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Judith Werner Sent: 28 January 2007 18:27 To: Subject: [OEL] Sandra Lovegrove Many of you have known that Sandra Lovegrove, our resident barrister, was suffering from cancer. We have missed her input and I have now found out that Sandra passed away last August. In November 2006 her husband Roger put together some photos, poetry and memories, including a 'penpicture' written by Sandra herself. You might like to visit at http://www.lovegrove.f9.co.uk/JPoet/ We will continue to miss her. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Martyn, Thank you for your response and the info. Also for the link to the website for Elsing. Looks like I have plenty of options to choose from - just have to get back to the maps to see which fit. Thanks again, Jennifer In a message dated 1/27/2007 3:30:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Jennifer, One of the meanings of "sty" (with an alternative spelling of "stye") in the OED is "a path or narrow way" All the best, Martyn

Hi Audrey, I think that this could still be interpreted as the path to Elsing. OED has examples of its use in that context from 725 to 1430. Having no knowledge of where Elsing was, I had to look on the about-norfolk website where there was quite an interesting potted history of the place. http://www.about-norfolk.com/about/towns/Elsing.htm All the best, Martyn ----- Original Message ---- From: norman lee <[email protected]> To: mjcl <[email protected]>; [email protected]; [email protected] Sent: Sunday, 28 January, 2007 12:03:08 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr Hello Martyn What about stey? I 've seen a reference to Elsingstey as well. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "mjcl" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr > Jennifer, > > One of the meanings of "sty" (with an alternative spelling of "stye") in > the OED is "a path or narrow way" > > All the best, > > Martyn > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, 26 January, 2007 7:33:11 PM > Subject: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr > > Hello, > > I'm usually just a lurker on this list - gleaning lots of valuable > information from the various exchanges. > > I've recently been working with Manor court records from the East Dereham, > Norfolk area. There are two words that keep recurring that I'm having > difficulty with, and request the list's assistance in helping me > understand. > > The first is Stey or Stye. It appears in reference to Elsing Stey or > Elsing > Stye. In later records, the word is written Style. Also used as in > Elsing > Stey Way. It sounds as if this must be some sort of path as several > properties are described as abutting upon Elsing Stey. > > The 2nd word is Carr. I've found one definition which seems to describe > a > rocky outcrop, but then a Google Search leads to Dillington Carr which > seems > to be some unique ecosystem which sounds more like an American Swamp than > a > rocky outcrop. > > I appreciate any clues. Thank you very much. > Jennifer Clark > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Martyn What about stey? I 've seen a reference to Elsingstey as well. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "mjcl" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr > Jennifer, > > One of the meanings of "sty" (with an alternative spelling of "stye") in > the OED is "a path or narrow way" > > All the best, > > Martyn > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Friday, 26 January, 2007 7:33:11 PM > Subject: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr > > Hello, > > I'm usually just a lurker on this list - gleaning lots of valuable > information from the various exchanges. > > I've recently been working with Manor court records from the East Dereham, > Norfolk area. There are two words that keep recurring that I'm having > difficulty with, and request the list's assistance in helping me > understand. > > The first is Stey or Stye. It appears in reference to Elsing Stey or > Elsing > Stye. In later records, the word is written Style. Also used as in > Elsing > Stey Way. It sounds as if this must be some sort of path as several > properties are described as abutting upon Elsing Stey. > > The 2nd word is Carr. I've found one definition which seems to describe > a > rocky outcrop, but then a Google Search leads to Dillington Carr which > seems > to be some unique ecosystem which sounds more like an American Swamp than > a > rocky outcrop. > > I appreciate any clues. Thank you very much. > Jennifer Clark > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Many of you have known that Sandra Lovegrove, our resident barrister, was suffering from cancer. We have missed her input and I have now found out that Sandra passed away last August. In November 2006 her husband Roger put together some photos, poetry and memories, including a 'penpicture' written by Sandra herself. You might like to visit at http://www.lovegrove.f9.co.uk/JPoet/ We will continue to miss her. Judith Werner Salt Lake City, Utah, USA Administrator, OLD-ENGLISH http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/

Evening Don - An interesting thought which may or may not have some substance when one considers what 'kin' means! Reaney's dictionary of surnames lists "Tomkin" with 6 variants. One variant "Tompkyn" is stated to be "Little Tom". It also lists "Tomkinson & Tompki[y]nson" and each case defines it as "Son of Tomkin" Further on it lists "Tomlin" with 7 variants, one of which "Tomelyn" is stated as a double diminutive of 'Tom or Thom' (Thomas). The supposition that the addition of "kin" to indicate "Junior" would there fore seem to be about right, and so we would have Tom the father, Tomkin the son and Tomkinson the grandson. QED? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 (And All That!) http://www.sanhs.org -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Donald Tomkinson Sent: 27 January 2007 19:56 To: OLD ENGLISH MESSAGE Subject: [OEL] KIN NAME SUFFIX The suffix "kin" in a name such as Tomkinson is described as a diminutive, suggesting an affectionate connotation. Is it possible that it might have been used in the present sense of the addition of "Junior" after a name? Tomkinson would then be the "son of the son of Tom", which seems to make sense. I should be glad to hear any opinions. Don Tomkinson ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jennifer, One of the meanings of "sty" (with an alternative spelling of "stye") in the OED is "a path or narrow way" All the best, Martyn ----- Original Message ---- From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, 26 January, 2007 7:33:11 PM Subject: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr Hello, I'm usually just a lurker on this list - gleaning lots of valuable information from the various exchanges. I've recently been working with Manor court records from the East Dereham, Norfolk area. There are two words that keep recurring that I'm having difficulty with, and request the list's assistance in helping me understand. The first is Stey or Stye. It appears in reference to Elsing Stey or Elsing Stye. In later records, the word is written Style. Also used as in Elsing Stey Way. It sounds as if this must be some sort of path as several properties are described as abutting upon Elsing Stey. The 2nd word is Carr. I've found one definition which seems to describe a rocky outcrop, but then a Google Search leads to Dillington Carr which seems to be some unique ecosystem which sounds more like an American Swamp than a rocky outcrop. I appreciate any clues. Thank you very much. Jennifer Clark ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The suffix "kin" in a name such as Tomkinson is described as a diminutive, suggesting an affectionate connotation. Is it possible that it might have been used in the present sense of the addition of "Junior" after a name? Tomkinson would then be the "son of the son of Tom", which seems to make sense. I should be glad to hear any opinions. Don Tomkinson

I deeply appreciate all the answers I received in response to my question regarding these terms. Having the definitions and being well supplied with various old and modern maps, I'm off to try to ascertain where my ancestors may have farmed. Thank you for all the responses. Jennifer Clark

Many times if the land that a family held was held by lease or by copyhold, it was held for "lives." In this situation it usually went to the youngest male. When held for "lives" it was usually for three "lives," e.g. grandfather, father, and son. By giving the land to the youngest male in each generation, it insured that the land would be kept in the family longer. After the third life the land then reverted back to the lord of the manor unless some other arrangement had been made with the manor. Allen Peterson

Dear Yvonne, You should also remember that entailed estates were not mentioned in early wills, and would probably go to oldest son. Only the testator's unentailed estate would be disposed of in the will. Nuala ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Nunn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness > > > Dear Yvonne > > I have no source but I am sure at some stage it was not unusual for the > youngest son to inherit all. > > regards > > Lyn

Dear Yvonne I have no source but I am sure at some stage it was not unusual for the youngest son to inherit all. regards Lyn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Yvonne Purdy" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness > > >> Hi Will, >> >> I appreciate your thoughts, but for some reason, Stephen Fells was the >> 'heir', even though being the younger brother, and his elder and eldest >> brothers had heirs, but Stephen was put above them, 'bearing the name of >> Fells'. It's an odd situation all round, and doesn't sit well. There >> was >> something going on, but what is anyone's guess. The oldest brother, >> Christopher, had apparently committed some crime abroad, which took a lot >> of >> money to extricate him from. Finding the documents to prove all this is >> difficult to say the least, especially with a name like Fells!! >> >> Best regards, >> Yvonne >>>> >> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: 26 January 2007 19:44 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness >> >> >> What's interesting about your reply is that I've often run across >> situations >> where a younger son did not marry until very late in life. I can't say >> why, >> but I can speculate ! >> >> Let's say these thoughts go through the head. My elder brother will >> inherit >> everything, so I can't myself get a *good* match since I have no >> prospects. >> The best I can do is an older widow, or a illegimate daughter or the >> daughter >> of some poor yeoman. Maybe I should wait to see if maybe my elder >> brother >> will >> d.s.p.m. (i.e. without male heirs) and then I'll be next in line for the >> property and I can get myself a high-status wife. >> >> Just random speculation :) >> >> Will >> << >> >> >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Yvonne Yes if the custom of the manor was "Borough English" then indeed the youngest son was the heir. Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyn Nunn" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:33 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness Dear Yvonne I have no source but I am sure at some stage it was not unusual for the youngest son to inherit all. regards Lyn > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Yvonne Purdy" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:07 AM > Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness > > >> Hi Will, >> >> I appreciate your thoughts, but for some reason, Stephen Fells was the >> 'heir', even though being the younger brother, and his elder and eldest >> brothers had heirs, but Stephen was put above them, 'bearing the name of >> Fells'. It's an odd situation all round, and doesn't sit well. There >> was >> something going on, but what is anyone's guess. The oldest brother, >> Christopher, had apparently committed some crime abroad, which took a lot >> of >> money to extricate him from. Finding the documents to prove all this is >> difficult to say the least, especially with a name like Fells!! >> >> Best regards, >> Yvonne >>>> >> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: 26 January 2007 19:44 >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness >> >> >> What's interesting about your reply is that I've often run across >> situations >> where a younger son did not marry until very late in life. I can't say >> why, >> but I can speculate ! >> >> Let's say these thoughts go through the head. My elder brother will >> inherit >> everything, so I can't myself get a *good* match since I have no >> prospects. >> The best I can do is an older widow, or a illegimate daughter or the >> daughter >> of some poor yeoman. Maybe I should wait to see if maybe my elder >> brother >> will >> d.s.p.m. (i.e. without male heirs) and then I'll be next in line for the >> property and I can get myself a high-status wife. >> >> Just random speculation :) >> >> Will >> << >> >> >> >> >> ==================================== >> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Carr in Norfolk is water logged ground, as would be found at the site of silted up broads. Parts of Norfolk are rich in what is known as Alder Carr, wet boggy places that have been colonised by Alder. Just to confuse things, over toward Hunstanton there is a soft red sandstone, the only rock in Norfolk apart from flint. It is called Carr Stone. No thoughts on Sty or Stie except to say that Elsing is at the edge of what passes in Norfolk for hilly land. John At 20:57 26/01/2007, j halsey wrote: >Hello Jennifer, >Well you now have a choice ! Bailey's Dictionary (pub 1753) does not show >"Carr", but it does show "Carre" which it descibes as "Woody moist or boggy >ground. A wood in a boggy place".The Shorter Oxford 3rd Ed. has it without >the "e" . Apart from the OE meaning, "Rock", which it also quotes, there is >a "local ME" meaning confirming Bailey's definition above, but adding "A >pool; a fen; now usually wet or boggy ground". > >The Shorter Oxford gives "sty" or "stie" as "to ascend, rise or climb" > >Jim Halsey >

Hi Will, I appreciate your thoughts, but for some reason, Stephen Fells was the 'heir', even though being the younger brother, and his elder and eldest brothers had heirs, but Stephen was put above them, 'bearing the name of Fells'. It's an odd situation all round, and doesn't sit well. There was something going on, but what is anyone's guess. The oldest brother, Christopher, had apparently committed some crime abroad, which took a lot of money to extricate him from. Finding the documents to prove all this is difficult to say the least, especially with a name like Fells!! Best regards, Yvonne >> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 26 January 2007 19:44 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness What's interesting about your reply is that I've often run across situations where a younger son did not marry until very late in life. I can't say why, but I can speculate ! Let's say these thoughts go through the head. My elder brother will inherit everything, so I can't myself get a *good* match since I have no prospects. The best I can do is an older widow, or a illegimate daughter or the daughter of some poor yeoman. Maybe I should wait to see if maybe my elder brother will d.s.p.m. (i.e. without male heirs) and then I'll be next in line for the property and I can get myself a high-status wife. Just random speculation :) Will <<

The meaning of the English place-name Redcar is 'reedy bog' according to all the reference books I have - it's Anglo- Saxon, possibly with some Scandinavian influence. I think 'boggy or swampy ground' is the most likely explanation of your East Dereham instance. Celtic placenames are extremely rare in East Anglia, so the derivation from Welsh. Brythonnic 'caer' is most unlikely in that part of Britain. My best guess for Stey is that it is a regional form of the common AS element 'stow(e)', which means simply 'place'. Elsing Stey would be (something like) 'the place of Elsi's people', where Elsi is a proper name. Ian

Hello Jennifer, Well you now have a choice ! Bailey's Dictionary (pub 1753) does not show "Carr", but it does show "Carre" which it descibes as "Woody moist or boggy ground. A wood in a boggy place".The Shorter Oxford 3rd Ed. has it without the "e" . Apart from the OE meaning, "Rock", which it also quotes, there is a "local ME" meaning confirming Bailey's definition above, but adding "A pool; a fen; now usually wet or boggy ground". The Shorter Oxford gives "sty" or "stie" as "to ascend, rise or climb" Jim Halsey On 1/26/07, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hello, > > I'm usually just a lurker on this list - gleaning lots of valuable > information from the various exchanges. > > I've recently been working with Manor court records from the East Dereham, > Norfolk area. There are two words that keep recurring that I'm having > difficulty with, and request the list's assistance in helping > me understand. > > The first is Stey or Stye. It appears in reference to Elsing Stey > or Elsing > Stye. In later records, the word is written Style. Also used as in > Elsing > Stey Way. It sounds as if this must be some sort of path as several > properties are described as abutting upon Elsing Stey. > > The 2nd word is Carr. I've found one definition which seems to describe > a > rocky outcrop, but then a Google Search leads to Dillington Carr which > seems > to be some unique ecosystem which sounds more like an American Swamp than > a > rocky outcrop.

Hello Roy, Unfortunately, in my family, in the early days, I don't think 'love' played a part, only family dynasties, land acquisition, and producing an heir. Sad, isn't it. I'm glad I wasn't born then, to be a pawn in a game of acquiring status. Kind regards, Yvonne >> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Roy Sent: 26 January 2007 19:59 To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [OEL] Age to be a witness Hello - That supposes an adversity to LOVE as it should be! Terrible isn't it! The Love of Money---- Kind Regards Roy LD Cox WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 (And All That!) http://www.sanhs.org

Good Evening - CARR .m is in the Anglo-Saxon dictionary meaning 'Stone or Rock', sourced from The Northumbrian Gospels; it also states that it has a [Keltic] connection. The Middle English has a word "STYH" which refers to a spelling "STIE" meaning 'Climb' - this would seem to be a better thought than Styles which comes from the Latin 'Stylus' meaning an iron pencil for writing on wax tablets etc; I suppose one might say "The Elsing Climb" etc;? Kind Regards Roy LD Cox WEB: www.coxresearcher.com/index.htm Member of the Somerset Archealogical & Natural History Society No. 1066 (And All That!) http://www.sanhs.org -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 26 January 2007 19:33 To: [email protected] Subject: [OEL] Stey or Stye and Carr Hello, I'm usually just a lurker on this list - gleaning lots of valuable information from the various exchanges. I've recently been working with Manor court records from the East Dereham, Norfolk area. There are two words that keep recurring that I'm having difficulty with, and request the list's assistance in helping me understand. The first is Stey or Stye. It appears in reference to Elsing Stey or Elsing Stye. In later records, the word is written Style. Also used as in Elsing Stey Way. It sounds as if this must be some sort of path as several properties are described as abutting upon Elsing Stey. The 2nd word is Carr. I've found one definition which seems to describe a rocky outcrop, but then a Google Search leads to Dillington Carr which seems to be some unique ecosystem which sounds more like an American Swamp than a rocky outcrop. I appreciate any clues. Thank you very much. Jennifer Clark ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message