Many thanks to everyone who commented on this strange date. My friend has had another look at the fiche and now thinks that the V is not a V but an i, which makes much more sense! The writer apparently mostly uses very short i's but sometimes uses a slightly different version "with a bold downwards stroke and a return stroke that goes off to the right, creating a large V". Debbie Kennett

Also a bit unlikely, but might the final X be a misread 'th', ie 25th? Otherwise I'm at a loss to explain it. Could you ask your friend for a bit of the context? Matt -----Original Message----- From: Lyn Boothman Debbie, it's not 25th October by any chance is it, with the month mixed up with the days?? A bit unlikely but ... Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: <DEBBIEKENNETT@aol.com> > A friend of mine is working on microfiche copies of the parish registers > of > Rode in Somerset. He has come across a date which he says is written: > > XXVX > > Does anyone know what number this represents? He is sure that the third > character is a V not an I. > > Debbie Kennett

Debbie, it's not 25th October by any chance is it, with the month mixed up with the days?? A bit unlikely but ... Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: <DEBBIEKENNETT@aol.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:06 PM Subject: [OEL] XXVX date > > A friend of mine is working on microfiche copies of the parish registers > of > Rode in Somerset. He has come across a date which he says is written: > > XXVX > > Does anyone know what number this represents? He is sure that the third > character is a V not an I. > > Debbie Kennett > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

A friend of mine is working on microfiche copies of the parish registers of Rode in Somerset. He has come across a date which he says is written: XXVX Does anyone know what number this represents? He is sure that the third character is a V not an I. Debbie Kennett

Thanks for that, Elizabeth. I couldn't find the OED 'day math' entry when I looked for it before first replying to Barbara, I'm not sure why. If I'd found it it would have saved me a recantation of an ill-conceived opinion (as would looking in Richardson's Local Historians' Encyclopedia, a publication I have in my office but seldom bother to consult - clearly another ill-considered view). I did find the 2nd OED entry for 'day work', though, and was intrigued to see that its definition of the term is wrong, or at least inadequate. In the first four examples (where it is used as a measure of arable or garden land) the word is almost certainly used in its precise meaning of one fortieth of an acre, which is much less than the amount of land which could be ploughed or mown in a day, whatever the conditions. I'll send the OED a correction when I've got a bit of time to assemble a properly evidenced argument. Matt -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elizabeth Agar Sent: 22 October 2008 21:27 To: old-english@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] two days mathe of meadow grounde G'day to one and all, The OED has the following pertinent definitions, with the occasional mention of size: day's-work ------------- a. The work of a day, work done on or proper to a day. Also = DAYWORK 2 (obs.). 1594 SHAKES. Rich. III, II. i. 1 Now haue I done a good daies work. 1610 W. FOLKINGHAM Art of Survey II. vii. 59 Foure square Pearches make a Daiesworke, 10 Daie-workes a Roode. 1640 G. H. Witt's Recreations Hija, Your dayes work's done, each morning as you rise. c1836 GEN. P. THOMPSON Exerc. (1842) IV. 395 Paying him for more day's works. c1850 Rudim. Navig. (Weale) 10 The logboard, the contents of which are termed 'the log',the working it off, 'the day's work'. daywork, day-work ------------------------- 2. The amount of land that could be worked (ploughed, mown, etc.) in a day. Obs. [c1270 Merton Coll. Rec. No. 1257 (Essex) Sex Day~wercatas terrae meae.] 1318-19 MS. in Sotheby's Sale Catal. 7 Apr. (1892) 22, Grant from Richard de Twysdenne..of a Garden of 13 Dayworks of Land in Gudhurst. 1492 Will of Reede (Somerset Ho.), xj day werkes of land. 1534 Inv. Sir L. Bagot in Lichfield Merc. (1889) 23 Aug. 8/1, xxviij day-warke of pea..xij daye-warke of barley..xxiiij daye-warke of whet. 1641 BEST Farm. Bks. (Surtees) 38 The South Wandell close, with its bottomes, is 8 dayworkes, or will serve one mower 8 dayes. day math, day's math ---------------------------- A day's mowing; the extent of meadow-land mown by a man in one day; cf. DAY-WORK 2. 1669 Will of R. Mayor in Lichfield Merc. (1889) 23 Aug. 8/1 Alsoe all that parcell of meadow grounds, contayninge one acre or dayes math of ground for her naturall life. And after her deceyse, the above three acres or daye's workes of arrable land, and one day-math of meadow ground to my daughter, Ursula Mayor. 1804 DUNCUMB Herefordsh. I. Gloss. (App.), Day's math, is..about a statute acre; in other words, it is that quantity of grass usually mown by one man in one day, for the purpose of making hay. 1864 SIR F. PALGRAVE Norm. & Eng. IV. 61. Cheer, Liz in Melbourne ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

When you consider the variations in the size of the acre around the country, perhaps the measure of what a man could be expected to mow in a day would be more consistent? The Cheshire large measure extends beyond the borders of the county but it's hard to tell where it actually ends and that is around two and a quarter statute acres to one Cheshire acre! Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Polly Rubery" <polly@rowberry.org> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 10:14 PM Subject: [OEL] Dayworks and maths > Hi All > > I have been watching this discussion with interest, but no time to join > in...however "aftermath" is the term still used in farming circles to > describe the grass which grows after it has been cut for hay, so math must > have something to do with the verb to mow ( a mow, a math, a mat springs > to > mind - sorry :-(!), and I would guess that two days math, would indeed be > the area of grass that could be mown by a man in two days. > > However draggin my trusty "The Local Historian's Encyclopedia" (John > Richardson, Historical Publications, 1974, 1977 reprint) down off the > shelf, > he says: > > Day-math = A Cheshire term for approximately twice a statute acre, or a > day's mowing for one man. > > Day-work = In some areas in Yorks, Lancs and Lincs, 3 roods of land. > > Math = Approximately 1 acre, or the amount of land that one man could mow > in > a day. A Herefordshire term. > > A lot of the terms given in this section on land measurement were > originally > based on what could be done in a day or a year, or how in some cases, such > as the hop-acre which was "the area occupied by a 1000 hop plants - about > half an acre"! > > But as what could be done in a day (or other term) would depend very much > on > things like the nature of the land (heavy/light, wet/dry, etc) it was > obvious that the area would vary from place to place. The amout of grass > that you could mow in a day would vary with the type of grass, and how > heavy > the crop was. So hay in a water meadow (which would have been "drowned" > in > the winter to both fertilise the ground and protect the crop from frost > damage) would probably be thicker than that on a Candlemas meadow (which > had > been grazed during the winter) and you would be able to cut less of it in > a > day. > > In some ways this measurement was more equitable (when used in a > common/open > field situation) than a precise area, which would yeild a varying crop and > require a different labour input. > > Incidentally the Lugg Meadows just outside of Hereford, are one of the few > places where grass is still managed in this way. > Polly > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1739 - Release Date: 22/10/2008 07:23

G'day to one and all, The OED has the following pertinent definitions, with the occasional mention of size: day's-work ------------- a. The work of a day, work done on or proper to a day. Also = DAYWORK 2 (obs.). 1594 SHAKES. Rich. III, II. i. 1 Now haue I done a good daies work. 1610 W. FOLKINGHAM Art of Survey II. vii. 59 Foure square Pearches make a Daiesworke, 10 Daie-workes a Roode. 1640 G. H. Witt's Recreations Hija, Your dayes work's done, each morning as you rise. c1836 GEN. P. THOMPSON Exerc. (1842) IV. 395 Paying him for more day's works. c1850 Rudim. Navig. (Weale) 10 The logboard, the contents of which are termed 'the log',the working it off, 'the day's work'. daywork, day-work ------------------------- 2. The amount of land that could be worked (ploughed, mown, etc.) in a day. Obs. [c1270 Merton Coll. Rec. No. 1257 (Essex) Sex Day~wercatas terrae meae.] 1318-19 MS. in Sotheby's Sale Catal. 7 Apr. (1892) 22, Grant from Richard de Twysdenne..of a Garden of 13 Dayworks of Land in Gudhurst. 1492 Will of Reede (Somerset Ho.), xj day werkes of land. 1534 Inv. Sir L. Bagot in Lichfield Merc. (1889) 23 Aug. 8/1, xxviij day-warke of pea..xij daye-warke of barley..xxiiij daye-warke of whet. 1641 BEST Farm. Bks. (Surtees) 38 The South Wandell close, with its bottomes, is 8 dayworkes, or will serve one mower 8 dayes. day math, day's math ---------------------------- A day's mowing; the extent of meadow-land mown by a man in one day; cf. DAY-WORK 2. 1669 Will of R. Mayor in Lichfield Merc. (1889) 23 Aug. 8/1 Alsoe all that parcell of meadow grounds, contayninge one acre or dayes math of ground for her naturall life. And after her deceyse, the above three acres or daye's workes of arrable land, and one day-math of meadow ground to my daughter, Ursula Mayor. 1804 DUNCUMB Herefordsh. I. Gloss. (App.), Day's math, is..about a statute acre; in other words, it is that quantity of grass usually mown by one man in one day, for the purpose of making hay. 1864 SIR F. PALGRAVE Norm. & Eng. IV. 61. Cheer, Liz in Melbourne

Hi All I have been watching this discussion with interest, but no time to join in...however "aftermath" is the term still used in farming circles to describe the grass which grows after it has been cut for hay, so math must have something to do with the verb to mow ( a mow, a math, a mat springs to mind - sorry :-(!), and I would guess that two days math, would indeed be the area of grass that could be mown by a man in two days. However draggin my trusty "The Local Historian's Encyclopedia" (John Richardson, Historical Publications, 1974, 1977 reprint) down off the shelf, he says: Day-math = A Cheshire term for approximately twice a statute acre, or a day's mowing for one man. Day-work = In some areas in Yorks, Lancs and Lincs, 3 roods of land. Math = Approximately 1 acre, or the amount of land that one man could mow in a day. A Herefordshire term. A lot of the terms given in this section on land measurement were originally based on what could be done in a day or a year, or how in some cases, such as the hop-acre which was "the area occupied by a 1000 hop plants - about half an acre"! But as what could be done in a day (or other term) would depend very much on things like the nature of the land (heavy/light, wet/dry, etc) it was obvious that the area would vary from place to place. The amout of grass that you could mow in a day would vary with the type of grass, and how heavy the crop was. So hay in a water meadow (which would have been "drowned" in the winter to both fertilise the ground and protect the crop from frost damage) would probably be thicker than that on a Candlemas meadow (which had been grazed during the winter) and you would be able to cut less of it in a day. In some ways this measurement was more equitable (when used in a common/open field situation) than a precise area, which would yeild a varying crop and require a different labour input. Incidentally the Lugg Meadows just outside of Hereford, are one of the few places where grass is still managed in this way. Polly

<<Matt, beg to differ about dayworks. A couple of years ago I contacted the list about a survey that measured in acres, roods, dayworks and perches. The investigation I did then indicated that a daywork was definitely a measure used in Kent, if not elsewhere in England, and it was very definitely 4 perches. A perch is a fortieth of an acre, so a daywork was a tenth of an acre.>> I think we're in agreement, actually. A perch is one fortieth of a rood, not of an acre, and there are four roods in an acre, so a daywork which equals 4 perches is also equal to one fortieth of an acre. I do remember our past discussion on the list about dayworks - at the time I printed your post about the Long Melford survey and put it in my file on areal measurements, and this morning I had a look at it to refresh my memory. My file also notes other examples of daywork as an areal measure, including a 1318 Extent of Wellingborough in Northamptonshire, which measures several holdings by acres and dayworks, and also contains an explicit statement (in Latin) that 'It should be known that 10 Daywerks make one quarter part of an acre and 4 perches make one Daywerk'. It does seem to have been used outside Kent, though it only infrequently. <<The survey I was working on comes from Long Melford in Suffolk but was done by a surveyor from Kent, who also used dayworks in a survey from somewhere in Yorkshire, which is in print, can't remember where offhand. The survey by this Kentish man is the only occasion in Melford when dayworks are used, it's not a medieval hangover in this part of Suffolk, earlier surveys are all in acres roods and perches. Barbara, when I was researching dayworks I couldn't find any link between the term as a measure of land and anything to do with how much work you could do in a day, although you would think there ought to be a link deep back in the medieval period. I asked a couple of academics I know who work on medieval agriculture but they didn't come up with anything. I just tried to find the correspondence from then on the OEL list archives, but the Rootsweb site seems to be down.>> Some time ago, when I first came across dayworks, I put the same question to Chris Dyer (an authority on medieval agriculture if ever there was one), but he couldn't explain it either. I think it was he who suggested it might have been the area a man could dig up with a spade in a day. Matt

Matt, beg to differ about dayworks. A couple of years ago I contacted the list about a survey that measured in acres, roods, dayworks and perches. The investigation I did then indicated that a daywork was definitely a measure used in Kent, if not elsewhere in England, and it was very definitely 4 perches. A perch is a fortieth of an acre, so a daywork was a tenth of an acre. The survey I was working on comes from Long Melford in Suffolk but was done by a surveyor from Kent, who also used dayworks in a survey from somewhere in Yorkshire, which is in print, can't remember where offhand. The survey by this Kentish man is the only occasion in Melford when dayworks are used, it's not a medieval hangover in this part of Suffolk, earlier surveys are all in acres roods and perches. Barbara, when I was researching dayworks I couldn't find any link between the term as a measure of land and anything to do with how much work you could do in a day, although you would think there ought to be a link deep back in the medieval period. I asked a couple of academics I know who work on medieval agriculture but they didn't come up with anything. I just tried to find the correspondence from then on the OEL list archives, but the Rootsweb site seems to be down. Lyn B ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tompkins, M.L.L." <mllt1@leicester.ac.uk> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [OEL] two days mathe of meadow grounde > > <<Sorry not to have mentioned the region or locality for this enquiry. > It's from an ancient settlement by a river estuary in hilly mid west > Wales. Interestingly I have come across quite a few 18th century fields > named according to a number of men's work eg seven mens work, six men's > work, three men's work. I am guessing this might be connected with > manorial obligations and would be very interested to hear any opinions at > all on this.>> > > > I may have to eat my words, as to what a days mathe meant. First, it > seems the amount of meadow which could be mown by one man in a day was > only around 3/4 - 1 3/4 acres, and many 16C husbandmen's holdings would > have included at least two or three acres of meadow, some substantially > more. Plus I've found an explicit statement that (in the Isle of Man in > about 1800 at least) a 'daymath' was as much as can be mown by one man in > a day. So you were right all along, Barbara. > > A daywork, however, was definitely a much smaller area - it was one > fortieth of an acre, an area 5.5 x 22 yards. I've always been a bit > puzzled as to what its name derived from. It was often used to measure > arable land, yet was definitely smaller than the area which could ploughed > or harrowed by one man in one day, and also less than could be reaped in a > day (about a third of an acre). Maybe it originated in the area which > could be dug over with a spade in one day? > > I haven't ever heard of land measured in men's work, and west Wales is not > an area I'm familiar with. I hesitate to suggest that a mans work might > be the same as a daywork, because daywork is an English term and 'a river > estuary in hilly mid west Wales' sounds like Merionethshire, one of the > last parts of Wales to come under English rule, and presumably a region > where obscure English terms would be least likely to have displaced > traditional Welsh measurements. Could it be a translation of a Welsh > term? > > If the sources state the area of those fields called 'X men's work' it > might be possible to calculate how big a man's work was. > > Matt > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

<<Sorry not to have mentioned the region or locality for this enquiry. It's from an ancient settlement by a river estuary in hilly mid west Wales. Interestingly I have come across quite a few 18th century fields named according to a number of men's work eg seven mens work, six men's work, three men's work. I am guessing this might be connected with manorial obligations and would be very interested to hear any opinions at all on this.>> I may have to eat my words, as to what a days mathe meant. First, it seems the amount of meadow which could be mown by one man in a day was only around 3/4 - 1 3/4 acres, and many 16C husbandmen's holdings would have included at least two or three acres of meadow, some substantially more. Plus I've found an explicit statement that (in the Isle of Man in about 1800 at least) a 'daymath' was as much as can be mown by one man in a day. So you were right all along, Barbara. A daywork, however, was definitely a much smaller area - it was one fortieth of an acre, an area 5.5 x 22 yards. I've always been a bit puzzled as to what its name derived from. It was often used to measure arable land, yet was definitely smaller than the area which could ploughed or harrowed by one man in one day, and also less than could be reaped in a day (about a third of an acre). Maybe it originated in the area which could be dug over with a spade in one day? I haven't ever heard of land measured in men's work, and west Wales is not an area I'm familiar with. I hesitate to suggest that a mans work might be the same as a daywork, because daywork is an English term and 'a river estuary in hilly mid west Wales' sounds like Merionethshire, one of the last parts of Wales to come under English rule, and presumably a region where obscure English terms would be least likely to have displaced traditional Welsh measurements. Could it be a translation of a Welsh term? If the sources state the area of those fields called 'X men's work' it might be possible to calculate how big a man's work was. Matt

Hi again! There is Scottish word 'Maithe/Mathe' which means a maggot or worm; the egg or grub of the Bluebottle. Doesn't seem to fall in with the sentence though, does it? but I give it for information's sake. Interesting you should refer to Winter Flooding, is this West Country? Roy -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Walker Sent: 21 October 2008 23:15 To: old-english@rootsweb.com Subject: [OEL] two days mathe of meadow grounde Hi Everyone Is anyone able to confirm or add to my understanding of the following item from a will written in 1570 please? 'I bequeath to my said sonnes as aforesaid two days mathe of meadow grounde' Am I right in thinking that this refers to a system of strip farming on a flood meadow where certain farmers own the right to take the first math ie the first cut of hay, measured not in acreage but in day's work. After the first cut then the land reverts to common grazing land until the first floods of winter. Was this sytem wide spread throughout Britain I wonder? Thanks Barbara ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Two (2) days mowing? Kind Regards Roy ----- Original Message ---- From: Barbara Walker <msbwalker@tiscali.co.uk> To: old-english@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 21 October, 2008 11:15:15 PM Subject: [OEL] two days mathe of meadow grounde Hi Everyone Is anyone able to confirm or add to my understanding of the following item from a will written in 1570 please? 'I bequeath to my said sonnes as aforesaid two days mathe of meadow grounde' Am I right in thinking that this refers to a system of strip farming on a flood meadow where certain farmers own the right to take the first math ie the first cut of hay, measured not in acreage but in day's work. After the first cut then the land reverts to common grazing land until the first floods of winter. Was this sytem wide spread throughout Britain I wonder? Thanks Barbara ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again Sorry not to have mentioned the region or locality for this enquiry. It's from an ancient settlement by a river estuary in hilly mid west Wales. Interestingly I have come across quite a few 18th century fields named according to a number of men's work eg seven mens work, six men's work, three men's work. I am guessing this might be connected with manorial obligations and would be very interested to hear any opinions at all on this. Many thanks Barbara

<<Is anyone able to confirm or add to my understanding of the following item from a will written in 1570 please? 'I bequeath to my said sonnes as aforesaid two days mathe of meadow grounde' Am I right in thinking that this refers to a system of strip farming on a flood meadow where certain farmers own the right to take the first math ie the first cut of hay, measured not in acreage but in day's work. After the first cut then the land reverts to common grazing land until the first floods of winter. Was this sytem wide spread throughout Britain I wonder?>> Hello Barbara, The answer to all your questions is 'Yes'. Except that, unless this will comes from a parish with vast quantities of meadow, a day's mathe is unlikely to have been as much meadow as could be cut in a day, which would have been an unusually large share of most parish's resources. It may be some kind of areal measurement, perhaps specific to meadow (which was often had its own unique terminology) - in some areas a daywork or dayswork, notwithstanding its apparent etymology, was a mere fraction of an acre (a sixteenth? I can't remember). In questions of terminology it's always useful to mention the locality, as different regions used different terms. Where does this particular will come from? Matt Tompkins

Hi Everyone Is anyone able to confirm or add to my understanding of the following item from a will written in 1570 please? 'I bequeath to my said sonnes as aforesaid two days mathe of meadow grounde' Am I right in thinking that this refers to a system of strip farming on a flood meadow where certain farmers own the right to take the first math ie the first cut of hay, measured not in acreage but in day's work. After the first cut then the land reverts to common grazing land until the first floods of winter. Was this sytem wide spread throughout Britain I wonder? Thanks Barbara

Dear all, Thank you so very much to Audrey, Roy, Barbara, Matt and Margaret for their very interesting and enlightening replies to my query. I've gone back to the inventory, magnifying glass in hand, and there is a comma after Silver plate, one body suit of Armour etc., so I must agree that the silver plate and armour are separate items, but I still find it fascinating that Richard Sherlock had his armour, probably from his earlier days and involvement in the Civil War. I have been researching his life for some time now, and knew that he had been an ardent Royalist, serving as chaplain to the troops in Ireland, and was mentioned in despatches (but that's for another day of obtaining the original records). He was removed by Cromwell's men from one or two of the churches where he later served, and it was said that he never shaved off his beard after the beheading of King Charles. He was a great benefactor to the poor, and his inventory also lists several gifts to the desperately poor, most if not all considered irrecoverable by his executors. An interesting member of the family, my 10 x great uncle; a picture taken from his portrait in St. Oswald's Church, Winwick, in his ecclesiastical garb, hangs over my computer, but I never had envisaged him in his suit of armour in his younger years!! With my thanks again for all the great replies. Kind regards, Yvonne Purdy (nee Sherlock)

Hello, I agree with Matt and when I first saw it, read it as he has done. Different items are often linked under the same "Item" such as: a joint stool, a porringer and some old lumber so I don't think we should assume the armour was silver. Best wishes, Margaret. In a message dated 21/10/2008 08:25:30 GMT Daylight Time, mllt1@leicester.ac.uk writes: <<I've just received the 1689 will of Richard Sherlock, DD, Winwick, Lancashire, and was fascinated to see in the inventory: Itm in Silver plate, one Body suit of Armour Buff Coat & c - £30=14=10 Was armour really/normally made of silver plate? It seems a very expensive piece of 'kit' to have?>> Hello Yvonne, 'plate' at this period almost always meant tableware, so I think that should be read as "in Silver plate [and] one Body suit of Armour, Buff Coat etc". In other words there were two separate items, his silver plate and his armour. As someone else said, a Doctor of Divinity might have owned military equipment because he had inherited it, but at this date it is more likely that he owned it because he was obliged, like all other men above a certain level of wealth, to provide and maintain armour and weapons for the local militia . It seems he was wealthy enough to have been required to provide a cavalryman's buff coat and armour. Matt

<<I've just received the 1689 will of Richard Sherlock, DD, Winwick, Lancashire, and was fascinated to see in the inventory: Itm in Silver plate, one Body suit of Armour Buff Coat & c - £30=14=10 Was armour really/normally made of silver plate? It seems a very expensive piece of 'kit' to have?>> Hello Yvonne, 'plate' at this period almost always meant tableware, so I think that should be read as "in Silver plate [and] one Body suit of Armour, Buff Coat etc". In other words there were two separate items, his silver plate and his armour. As someone else said, a Doctor of Divinity might have owned military equipment because he had inherited it, but at this date it is more likely that he owned it because he was obliged, like all other men above a certain level of wealth, to provide and maintain armour and weapons for the local militia . It seems he was wealthy enough to have been required to provide a cavalryman's buff coat and armour. Matt

Hi Everyone Just because there was a suit of armour in the inventory doesn't mean to say, of course, that this particular deceased Doctor of Divinity necessarily ever wore it himself. It may have been passed down the family from a King's supporter in the then recent Civil War or it may have been a gift from a wealthy patron or grateful friend. There's quite a lot of background around Doctor Sherlock on the internet which provides plenty of 'leads' with regard to education, social standing, contacts and lifestyle. I wonder whether the suit still exists today or whether it was recycled in the furnace. By 1689 it would have gained interest as an item of the past as army uniforms were being made of cloth. Also from the internet, 'Late in the 16th century armourers were still making fine armour, magnificently embossed and damascened with gold and silver, and also armour specially designed for the tournament. However, full armour, except for the cuirass and helmet, was rarely worn after 1650, though commanders might use it when sitting for portraits.' Fascinating! Best wishes Barbara ----- Original Message ----- From: "YvonnePurdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> To: <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 10:15 PM Subject: [OEL] Has anyone come across suits of armour? Dear all, I've just received the 1689 will of Richard Sherlock, DD, Winwick, Lancashire, and was fascinated to see in the inventory: Itm in Silver plate, one Body suit of Armour Buff Coat & c - £30=14=10 Was armour really/normally made of silver plate? It seems a very expensive piece of 'kit' to have? Kind regards, Yvonne Purdy (nee Sherlock) ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message