>My now wife means my present wife as opposed to a former wife who had died. I have seen one or two cases where it referred to the only wife the man had. Regards, John Moore

Hi Barbara There are two important things here. In the example you quote here you use "nunc:" - the colon (:) at this time would indicate an abbreviation, so the word would not be "nunc" on its own, as obviously no abbreviation involved there. So the meaning is not now or present... >From the example given of the twins it would seem that it has been used to indicate a child which has not been baptised. The burial service was not supposed to be read for anyone (child or adult) who had not been baptised, and as the register is meant to be a register of services, many children buried in the churchyard before they are baptised go unrecorded. However in this case it seems that your chap was being far more assidous, and recording all the bodies buried, whether or not the service was read for them. You mention abortive - well obviously they could not have been baptised as they would have been born dead, and the same goes for still births. Here it would seem that the term is being used to indicate that the child was unbaptised, but quite how is interesting, as "nuncupative" seems more to mean "named" than the opposite... Polly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Youds" <barbara.youds@ntlworld.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 7:01 AM Subject: [OEL] re Nunc child Dear All, Thanks for all your thoughts on this. I should have mentioned that the time frame is c. 1620 and the incumbent used a mixture of Latin and English, and as far as I can tell (who has no Latin at all) not very well! We are fairly certain that the meaning will be now or declared child and at first thought it must mean declared as in a declaration of paternity made by the mother of an illegitimate child as other entries use the term base for illegitimate children. However.... (why is there always an 'however'?) I then found these entries: 22nd Oct - A child nunc: et alter ex gemell: Jacobi Scholefield 25th Oct - Josephe s. Of James Scholefield alter ex gemellis Joseph was baptised on the 22nd, possibly at the same time his twin was buried. So it would appear that James Scholefield was the father of twins, one of whom died before it was baptised. I wonder if this particular incumbent used the term nunc child for those children who died before baptism, that is 'declared' but not yet named before God? In other words these children were all non-viable for some reason, perhaps late miscarriages or still births rather than illegitimate? The reason I would like to know is that I am looking at a mortality crisis and the term abortive is given for many burials indicating possibly the effects of a famine and I need to be able to assign these nunc entries to a particular category of burial in order to come up with a set of stats to manipulate. Thank you all again, Barbara ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear All, Thanks for all your thoughts on this. I should have mentioned that the time frame is c. 1620 and the incumbent used a mixture of Latin and English, and as far as I can tell (who has no Latin at all) not very well! We are fairly certain that the meaning will be now or declared child and at first thought it must mean declared as in a declaration of paternity made by the mother of an illegitimate child as other entries use the term base for illegitimate children. However.... (why is there always an 'however'?) I then found these entries: 22nd Oct - A child nunc: et alter ex gemell: Jacobi Scholefield 25th Oct - Josephe s. Of James Scholefield alter ex gemellis Joseph was baptised on the 22nd, possibly at the same time his twin was buried. So it would appear that James Scholefield was the father of twins, one of whom died before it was baptised. I wonder if this particular incumbent used the term nunc child for those children who died before baptism, that is 'declared' but not yet named before God? In other words these children were all non-viable for some reason, perhaps late miscarriages or still births rather than illegitimate? The reason I would like to know is that I am looking at a mortality crisis and the term abortive is given for many burials indicating possibly the effects of a famine and I need to be able to assign these nunc entries to a particular category of burial in order to come up with a set of stats to manipulate. Thank you all again, Barbara

Barbara: Could it possibly be a mis-reading of "nurse child"? Best wishes Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barbara Youds" <barbara.youds@ntlworld.com> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 9:56 PM Subject: [OEL] Nunc child >I am currently undertaking a local history course and have come across a > term that is puzzling not only my fellow students but also my tutor and > the > course director. It is from a parish register, burials, and is 'nunc: > child'. Between us we have worked out it would translate as 'declared > child' > and at first we thought this must refer to illegitimate children, but I am > now thinking it could relate to still births or late miscarriages or > possibly children who died before baptism. > > > > Has anyone else come across this term or have any suggestions please? > > > > Barbara > > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am currently undertaking a local history course and have come across a term that is puzzling not only my fellow students but also my tutor and the course director. It is from a parish register, burials, and is 'nunc: child'. Between us we have worked out it would translate as 'declared child' and at first we thought this must refer to illegitimate children, but I am now thinking it could relate to still births or late miscarriages or possibly children who died before baptism. Has anyone else come across this term or have any suggestions please? Barbara

> I believe it is 'nunc' as in 'nunc pro tunc'....that would be a child that was in a sense adopted by one of the members of the present marriage, having been born to one of the parents in a prior marriage. Or perhaps it is a Latin version of an expression I have found in a number of wills (so a legal term, and therefore deliberately obscure?!) referring to a testator's wife as "my now wife". Regards, John Moore

perhaps 'nunc' also stands for 'noncuperative' meaning oral or declared vs written ? kelly > From: bartonlander@free.net.nz> To: barbara.youds@ntlworld.com; OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:37:39 +1300> Subject: Re: [OEL] Nunc child> > 'Nunc' is latin for 'now', or 'at present'. My first guess would be that > what is meant> is 'at present a child'. Just possibly 'now with child', or 'now having a > child'. The text might eliminate some of these, whether it seems to be used > of an adult or of a child. Or whether it is always used of a woman.> > John Barton> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Barbara Youds" <barbara.youds@ntlworld.com>> To: <OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com>> Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 10:56 AM> Subject: [OEL] Nunc child> > > >I am currently undertaking a local history course and have come across a> > term that is puzzling not only my fellow students but also my tutor and > > the> > course director. It is from a parish register, burials, and is 'nunc:> > child'. Between us we have worked out it would translate as 'declared > > child'> > and at first we thought this must refer to illegitimate children, but I am> > now thinking it could relate to still births or late miscarriages or> > possibly children who died before baptism.> >> >> >> > Has anyone else come across this term or have any suggestions please?> >> >> >> > Barbara> >> >> >> > ====================================> > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/> > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH> >> > -------------------------------> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message> >> > __________ NOD32 3722 (20081229) Information __________> >> > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.> > http://www.eset.com> >> > > > > > ====================================> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008

I believe it is 'nunc' as in 'nunc pro tunc'....that would be a child that was in a sense adopted by one of the members of the present marriage, having been born to one of the parents in a prior marriage. > From: barbara.youds@ntlworld.com> To: OLD-ENGLISH@rootsweb.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 21:56:05 +0000> Subject: [OEL] Nunc child> > I am currently undertaking a local history course and have come across a> term that is puzzling not only my fellow students but also my tutor and the> course director. It is from a parish register, burials, and is 'nunc:> child'. Between us we have worked out it would translate as 'declared child'> and at first we thought this must refer to illegitimate children, but I am> now thinking it could relate to still births or late miscarriages or> possibly children who died before baptism.> > > > Has anyone else come across this term or have any suggestions please?> > > > Barbara> > > > ====================================> WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/> ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008

Hi All I am sorry that I have been a little quiet recently, but life has been somewhat more hectic than usual the last few weeks, but finally I have worked my way through the long list of things I *had* to do. Oh yes and then I was invited by findmypast to take part in a beta test of the 1911 website, and who could turn down an invitation like that? Luckily, although it was confined to only a few counties it did include Gloucestershire (including much of Bristol), so I was able to find my parents and grandparents, and three out of the four sets of great-grandparents who were still living. The McGUIRKs have perhaps been mis-indexed as they did evade me. And also a couple of great-great-grandparents who had survived to 1911, both in their 80s. This was a nice Christmas present! Anyway hopefully I will be able to catch up again now, and anyone waiting for a reply from me should get one... But for now I would like to thank you all for your helpful, interesting and useful postings over the last year and a *BIG* thank you to the List Admin for all their hard work in keeping the List running smoothly (being one I do know what this involves!). Finally my Christmas Greetings to you are at: www.rowberry.org/xmas08.html Have a good one! Kind regards Polly

Hello, My first reaction was that he made the moulds which put an impressed design into the cake of soap.... but then wondered if this could be a full-time occupation, since once a set was made in metal, they would last a very long time .... unless the soap placed in the moulds was corrosive when in its malleable state? I know damp soap eats into the metal-coated soap holders (replaced every 3 years) in my shower, so perhaps they didn't last all that long and needed regular newly engraved designs? Hope that's not a silly answer! My husband, as a lad, worked for Unilever, lots of soap machines there! Regards Ada At 03:19 PM 18/11/2008 +0000, you wrote: >Could it have anything to with soapstone sculpting? > >Ian Fairclough > > >Donald Tomkinson wrote: > > >In 1816 Jospeph Tomkinson of Stoke on Trent was described as a > >"soapwork engraver". The occupation could possibly be the coating a > >sheet of metal with soap and then etching a design into the soap and > >then applying acid to eat the design into the metal. If this is the > >case could Joseph have worked in printing? > > > >I haven't been able to find a complete definition of the occupation > >and would be grateful for assistance. > > > >Don Tomkinson > > > > > > > >==================================== > >WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > >ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > >==================================== >WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could it have anything to with soapstone sculpting? Ian Fairclough Donald Tomkinson wrote: >In 1816 Jospeph Tomkinson of Stoke on Trent was described as a >"soapwork engraver". The occupation could possibly be the coating a >sheet of metal with soap and then etching a design into the soap and >then applying acid to eat the design into the metal. If this is the >case could Joseph have worked in printing? > >I haven't been able to find a complete definition of the occupation >and would be grateful for assistance. > >Don Tomkinson > > > >==================================== >WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ >ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

In 1816 Jospeph Tomkinson of Stoke on Trent was described as a "soapwork engraver". The occupation could possibly be the coating a sheet of metal with soap and then etching a design into the soap and then applying acid to eat the design into the metal. If this is the case could Joseph have worked in printing? I haven't been able to find a complete definition of the occupation and would be grateful for assistance. Don Tomkinson

Hello Yvonne I've had another thought about the meaning of "outwarning rents". First of all to ask whether the inventory is that of the landlord and, if so, is he the lord of the manor? If he is, then he will probably be collecting a sort of tax at the changing of property he is leasing to tenants. These are known as exit and entry fines. A leasehold tenant on a copyhold lease may "buy" and "sell" his tenancy but at each exchange, the lord will demand a fine which can be quite substantial. The outgoing tenant will pay but so will the incoming one. This takes place even when a lease has passed by will. The deceased's estate will be charged and the heir will also have to pay. Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "YvonnePurdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> To: "A Lee" <alee231@btinternet.com>; "Old-English@Rootsweb. Com" <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2008 6:25 PM Subject: RE: [OEL] Outwarning rents > Hi Audrey, > > I've seen my friend today, and it's definitely Outwarning 'rents'. She's > wondering if it's a term specific to > the area of Brough, but many thanks for the lateral thinking. > > Kind regards, > Yvonne >> > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] > Sent: 02 November 2008 23:26 > To: YvonnePurdy; Old-English@Rootsweb. Com > Subject: Re: [OEL] Outwarning rents > > Is she sure that they are rents and not tents which would stand for > tenaments? > > Audrey > < >>> > From: "YvonnePurdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> > To: "Old-English@Rootsweb. Com" <old-english@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 7:34 PM > Subject: [OEL] Outwarning rents > >> Dear all, >> >> This is for a friend. Has anyone come across this term, Outwarning >> rents, >> or knows what it might mean? >> >> Kind regards, >> Yvonne > << > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1773 - Release Date: 07/11/2008 09:08

Hi Matt, Thanks for your reply; I'll try and get a copy of the extra details next Thursday, and will post them. Kind regards, Yvonne > From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Tompkins, M.L.L. Sent: 06 November 2008 18:28 To: Old-English@Rootsweb. Com Subject: Re: [OEL] Outwarning rents Could you give us the context in which it appears, Yvonne? That often makes it easier to figure out what a strange term means. Matt <

Could you give us the context in which it appears, Yvonne? That often makes it easier to figure out what a strange term means. Matt -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of YvonnePurdy Sent: 06 November 2008 18:25 To: A Lee; Old-English@Rootsweb. Com Subject: Re: [OEL] Outwarning rents Hi Audrey, I've seen my friend today, and it's definitely Outwarning 'rents'. She's wondering if it's a term specific to the area of Brough, but many thanks for the lateral thinking. Kind regards, Yvonne > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] Sent: 02 November 2008 23:26 To: YvonnePurdy; Old-English@Rootsweb. Com Subject: Re: [OEL] Outwarning rents Is she sure that they are rents and not tents which would stand for tenaments? Audrey < >> From: "YvonnePurdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> To: "Old-English@Rootsweb. Com" <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 7:34 PM Subject: [OEL] Outwarning rents > Dear all, > > This is for a friend. Has anyone come across this term, Outwarning rents, > or knows what it might mean? > > Kind regards, > Yvonne << ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Audrey, I've seen my friend today, and it's definitely Outwarning 'rents'. She's wondering if it's a term specific to the area of Brough, but many thanks for the lateral thinking. Kind regards, Yvonne > From: A Lee [mailto:alee231@btinternet.com] Sent: 02 November 2008 23:26 To: YvonnePurdy; Old-English@Rootsweb. Com Subject: Re: [OEL] Outwarning rents Is she sure that they are rents and not tents which would stand for tenaments? Audrey < >> From: "YvonnePurdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> To: "Old-English@Rootsweb. Com" <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 7:34 PM Subject: [OEL] Outwarning rents > Dear all, > > This is for a friend. Has anyone come across this term, Outwarning rents, > or knows what it might mean? > > Kind regards, > Yvonne <<

Is she sure that they are rents and not tents which would stand for tenaments? Audrey ----- Original Message ----- From: "YvonnePurdy" <von@yvonnepurdy.free-online.co.uk> To: "Old-English@Rootsweb. Com" <old-english@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 7:34 PM Subject: [OEL] Outwarning rents > Dear all, > > This is for a friend. Has anyone come across this term, Outwarning rents, > or knows what it might mean? > > Kind regards, > Yvonne > > > ==================================== > WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ > ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1758 - Release Date: 31/10/2008 08:22

Dear Roy, Many thanks for your reply. I'll relay your answer to my friend. It's not a term we've ever come across before, but I was sure someone on this list would come up with the answer. I hope you have a happy halloween too. My littlies and better half are celebrating at Kielder Castle whilst I babysit hound, and the remnants of the flu bug:( Kind regards, Yvonne >From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com Sent: 31 October 2008 19:53 To: Old-English@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [OEL] Outwarning rents Yvonne - I think this may have something to do with auctioning, where the rent for what property is being put has to be accompanied with advice of rents to prospective bidders and tenants alike? This thought comes from one definition of auctioning to which "outwarning" may be related in the Encyclopaedia Britannica 2005 edition, from my Internet program Babylon. Other than this, I have no experience. Happy Halloeewen..... Roy <

Yvonne - I think this may have something to do with auctioning, where the rent for what property is being put has to be accompanied with advice of rents to prospective bidders and tenants alike? This thought comes from one definition of auctioning to which "outwarning" may be related in the Encyclopaedia Britannica 2005 edition, from my Internet program Babylon. Other than this, I have no experience. Happy Halloeewen..... Roy -----Original Message----- From: old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:old-english-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of YvonnePurdy Sent: 31 October 2008 19:34 To: Old-English@Rootsweb. Com Subject: [OEL] Outwarning rents Dear all, This is for a friend. Has anyone come across this term, Outwarning rents, or knows what it might mean? Kind regards, Yvonne ==================================== WEB PAGE: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~oel/ ARCHIVES: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=OLD-ENGLISH ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OLD-ENGLISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear all, This is for a friend. Has anyone come across this term, Outwarning rents, or knows what it might mean? Kind regards, Yvonne