Yes the Plain Dealer online issue has the article and can be found at this website. www.cleveland.com In the Search box type Brethren Church Fire and click GO to see the article. The article is listed in the blog and articles section. Hope you find what you need there. If you want a photo of the current condition I can go there and take a digital picture and email it to you. Kathy Gies LCCOGS Secretary ----- Original Message ----- From: "Carole J. Schetter" <cjviking@comcast.net> To: <ohlorain@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [OHLORAIN] Black River Church of the Brethren > There is information on the Christmas Eve fire in the Plain Dealer and on > the Brethren Daily News list. I found them by "googling." What a > tragedy. > My ancestor, John Willis White was one of the founders of the church. > > Carole Schetter > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

If you care to send me your mailing address offline, I will be glad to send you a bit of info from a history book and a small copy of a Penfield Twp plat map, about 1915-1920, where the BOICE and BOBEL families lived. I attended Penfield Community Church years ago (served as church historian for a few years) Maxine Bobel, widow of Clayton R. Bobel, was a long time member there. She lived on a farm on the north side of Rt. 18, east of Foster Rd. Was church historian for a few years. Nancy M. Meyers, Lorain OH OGS Life Member http://www.ogs.org/ Genealogy Volunteer http://home.centurytel.net/lorgen/ RAOGK Volunteer http://www.raogk.org/

My grandfather's sister Eliza Gow Bobel and her husband Phillip lived on Route 18 on a farm about a mile east of Rt 301. Their son and his family also lived on that farm during the 1940's and 50's possibly earlier. The William Phelps Boise (wife Lydia Loring Severcool) family lived on Jones road (I think) in the 1880's? My grandfather Earl C. Gow (wife Josephine Boise) and his brother Walter lived on farms about a mile south of LaGrange on Rt.301 in the 1920's and into 1930's. I am not sure about the Opfer family, other than them being in LaGrange in the 1880s. Any insite into these families would be great! Thanks Shirley "martin.abba@juno.com" <martin.abba@juno.com> wrote: Hi Shirley, I don't know of any connections to these families. Do you, Carole? Shirley, when did they live in Penfield? Cathy -- Shirley Hunt wrote: This is such a sad story to hear about the fire. I have a lot of ties to the Penfield area with surnames Bobel, Boise, Gow, Opfer, and Severcool. Does anyone have connections to these families? Shirley Hunt "martin.abba@juno.com" wrote: Thank you, Carole and thank you Jane Cahl for the articles you sent. Jane is one of my Amherst classmates and, for those of you who don't know, Carole is my third cousin once removed. We have old photos of my gg grandparents and ggg grandparents (Carole's gg grandparents). In the photos, our ancestors are dressed in Brethren garb very much like the Amish. At that time, Church of the Brethren was called German Baptist Brethren. It is one of three historic peace churches and, like the Amish, they believe in living simply with strong emphasis on community. Once I clocked the distance from my gg grandparents' farm in Penfield to the church in Chatham. Thirteen miles -- quite a distance to go by buggy and the Brethren spent a lot of time in church! I've wondered how they managed -- one buggy wouldn't have been enough for the thirteen children in my gg grandparents' family (it's easy to see why Carole and I have lots of cousins in Lorain, Medina and Wayne Counties)! Those thirteen children must have very sleepy on the buggy rides home -- especially on the days the Brethren had their love feasts after their services. Carole's great grandfather and my gg grandfather were brothers and lived and worked together on adjoining farms in Penfield. They had come from Wayne County where our Pennsylvania Dutch ancestors had pioneered. The Neff side of our family were Mennonites who became Brethren and married into the Lutheran Dague side of our family -- all becoming Brethren. The Neffs were Swiss who moved to the Rhine area of Germany, probably because of religious persecution. From Germany, they immigrated to Philadelphia in 1717. Carole, would you like me to send you the articles that Jane sent? I learned of the fire from John Shafer, member of a Brethren church in VA. We had corresponded years ago because of his relationship to our Neff/Schweinhardt family. As one of our family historians, you would probably like to be in touch with him. I will send you his address privately. Cathy -- "Carole J. Schetter" wrote: There is information on the Christmas Eve fire in the Plain Dealer and on the Brethren Daily News list. I found them by "googling." What a tragedy. My ancestor, John Willis White was one of the founders of the church. Carole Schetter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ______________________________________________________________________ __ FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! http://track.juno.com/s/lc? s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.p d ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Shirley __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

This is such a sad story to hear about the fire. I have a lot of ties to the Penfield area with surnames Bobel, Boise, Gow, Opfer, and Severcool. Does anyone have connections to these families? Shirley Hunt "martin.abba@juno.com" <martin.abba@juno.com> wrote: Thank you, Carole and thank you Jane Cahl for the articles you sent. Jane is one of my Amherst classmates and, for those of you who don't know, Carole is my third cousin once removed. We have old photos of my gg grandparents and ggg grandparents (Carole's gg grandparents). In the photos, our ancestors are dressed in Brethren garb very much like the Amish. At that time, Church of the Brethren was called German Baptist Brethren. It is one of three historic peace churches and, like the Amish, they believe in living simply with strong emphasis on community. Once I clocked the distance from my gg grandparents' farm in Penfield to the church in Chatham. Thirteen miles -- quite a distance to go by buggy and the Brethren spent a lot of time in church! I've wondered how they managed -- one buggy wouldn't have been enough for the thirteen children in my gg grandparents' family (it's easy to see why Carole and I have lots of cousins in Lorain, Medina and Wayne Counties)! Those thirteen children must have very sleepy on the buggy rides home -- especially on the days the Brethren had their love feasts after their services. Carole's great grandfather and my gg grandfather were brothers and lived and worked together on adjoining farms in Penfield. They had come from Wayne County where our Pennsylvania Dutch ancestors had pioneered. The Neff side of our family were Mennonites who became Brethren and married into the Lutheran Dague side of our family -- all becoming Brethren. The Neffs were Swiss who moved to the Rhine area of Germany, probably because of religious persecution. From Germany, they immigrated to Philadelphia in 1717. Carole, would you like me to send you the articles that Jane sent? I learned of the fire from John Shafer, member of a Brethren church in VA. We had corresponded years ago because of his relationship to our Neff/Schweinhardt family. As one of our family historians, you would probably like to be in touch with him. I will send you his address privately. Cathy -- "Carole J. Schetter" wrote: There is information on the Christmas Eve fire in the Plain Dealer and on the Brethren Daily News list. I found them by "googling." What a tragedy. My ancestor, John Willis White was one of the founders of the church. Carole Schetter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Shirley __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Hi Everyone, If anyone has information about the fire that destroyed Black River Church of the Brethren in Chatham during the Christmas holidays, I would be grateful for it. My great, great grandparents, who were Lorain County pioneers, were charter members of that church. It is sad because that old building and its congregation had endured many generations. Cathy Martin ________________________________________________________________________ FREE Reminder Service - NEW from AmericanGreetings.com Click HERE and never forget a Birthday or Anniversary again! http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=197335&u=http://www.americangreetings.com/products/online_calendar.pd

Yes, it is true that women who were natural born American citizens could lose their citizenship if they married an alien. At one time they could also lose their citizenship if they married a man who did not qualify to become a citizen or a man who was racially ineligible to become a citizen. She could also lose her citizenship if she married an alien and moved to another country. For an excellent explanation of how naturalization laws affected women, go to www.archives.gov Once there, type in "women and naturalization laws" in the search box. You may have to look around a bit, but you will find an article from Prologue Magazine that explains how women were affected by naturalization laws. Very interesting and informative article. At the National Archives website, you can also find interesting information about the many laws that affected naturalization throughout our history. Jean Copeland

There is information on the Christmas Eve fire in the Plain Dealer and on the Brethren Daily News list. I found them by "googling." What a tragedy. My ancestor, John Willis White was one of the founders of the church. Carole Schetter

Alice, I just sent a copy of the Court Papers so you can see it AND I got A E-Mail back saying they have to check it out first. I send it out as attachment, I never done this be for Something about being to big. Maybe you might know what they mean. There keeping it to check it out. Virginia ----- Original Message ----- From: Alikat42@aol.com<mailto:Alikat42@aol.com> To: ohlorain@rootsweb.com<mailto:ohlorain@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 5:32 PM Subject: Re: [OHLORAIN] Naturalazation Citiseship Holy cow, Virginia, I always thought that if you weren't a citizen and married one, you automatically gained rights, if not citizenship. I didn't know a citizen could lose rights. Wow. Alice ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Holy cow, Virginia, I always thought that if you weren't a citizen and married one, you automatically gained rights, if not citizenship. I didn't know a citizen could lose rights. Wow. Alice

Hi , I have a story to tell, My Dad Giovanni came from Maddaloni Italy Jan. of 1910. He went to his Uncle in PA. I found his Registration Card Dated on 6-5-1917. He later settle in Lorain Ohio He had His Shoe Repair on Broadway in Lorain. In 1920 he met my Mother who WAS Born in Somerset PA., They were married Nov. 1920. By him being an Alien she did not know years later back in the 30s that she had lost all of her American Rights as a US citizen and had to apply for them and I have the Court Papers showing it was because of there marriage . She did get back her American Right's Virginia

I didn't know that about illegals becoming legal after serving in a branch of the Armed Service. Alice

My Aunts & Uncles file and got there papers from Elyria Court House. and my Dad got his in Akron Ohio. Akron has there's on the Web. Can someone tell me how to get the one's in Elyria Thank's Virginia ----- Original Message ----- From: Pat J.<mailto:patiowamom@netins.net> To: ohlorain@rootsweb.com<mailto:ohlorain@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 8:17 AM Subject: [OHLORAIN] Naturalization papers Are these papers found by county, state or national level? If there are no papers, or we can't find any, does that mean our immigrants were illegal? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com<mailto:OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Has anyone encountered the letters NOD on a headstone or in the cemetery records? Do you know what the initials mean? Someone sent me pics of the headstones of some ancestors and the deed to the same plots, dated 1930. What I am wondering is...does this maybe mean that the person is not buried there or not dead yet? Or.... what does it mean? When I looked at the cemetery map there were no other plots that had that on them, except the ones for my distant family members. Thanks in advance, Sande Please support me in my walk to find a cure for Cystic Fibrosis http://www.cff.org/Great_Strides/AlecsandraBihlmaier As far as our love flows; as far as our hope grows; as far as our yearning goes; -- we are no farther one from another. ~ L. Annie Foerster __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Thanks, Margaret and Patricia. :-) Lots of good information and thoughts on immigration.

This reminds me of something that I became aware of when my son was in the Army. When he was in basic training there were a few people there who had come to our country illegally as well as those that recruiters brought in from other countries. All of them would become citizens of the US when they finished their service to the Army and our country. There were two from the islands of Yap who were promised an education and US citizenship after serving in the Army. Of course the isalnds of Yap and others in that area are part of The Compact of Free Association that is granted to the Federated States of Micronesia, of which Yap is a part. So, that could be why they are allowed the citizenship after serving in the US Army. As far as the illegal aliens who serve in our US Army they just join a bunch of soldiers who may have been given the Army as opposed to jail time or deportation. I know that sounds like it shouldn't happen but I have a good deal of military in my family, even a Master Seargant, and that kind of stuff does happen. Peace, Sande Patricia <pdz99@sbcglobal.net> wrote: One thing I remember from my readings, is I believe that anyone who fought for this country during our internal wars, was granted citiizenship without the necessary "papers." Please support me in my walk to find a cure for Cystic Fibrosis http://www.cff.org/Great_Strides/AlecsandraBihlmaier As far as our love flows; as far as our hope grows; as far as our yearning goes; -- we are no farther one from another. ~ L. Annie Foerster __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

This is true. When you look at the gold mines, especially those in South Dakota, where I am familiar with the stories, you will see that the Chinese immigrants did the dirty mining work. They also opened up the town of Deadwood and made it prosperous. It is strange now to go to Deadwood or Lead, SD and not see any Chinese descendants. You would think that since they were the backbone of the communities they would be proliferant there. Today, in answer to the question posed earlier, many Asians can be illegal becasue they came over in ships inside of containers. You've probably seen stuff on the news about that, and them finding dead bodies, but many survived the gruelling trip and are living among us. Just because the news lately has focussed on the immigrants from Mexico, does not mean that they are the only ones who chose to enter the US in an illegal way. So many people come here to the "Golden" land only to be disappointed. Peace, Sande MScheffler <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> wrote: I would assume that lots of people came "legally" to the US but never became naturalized for a variety of reasons including not learning to speak English, lack of literacy skills, etc. I'm guessing that the issue of legal or illegal immigrants was quite different 200 years ago from what it is today. Likely there was much less concern for this issue unless people were in a location where the immigrants made "trouble" for some of the old timers. Seems it was the Irish who primarily built the Erie Canal, and with industrialization immigrants were welcomed to work in steel mills and other jobs that were hard, dirty and dangerous that long time US residents avoided. Margaret Scheffler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat J." > Are these papers found by county, state or national level? > > If there are no papers, or we can't find any, does that mean our > immigrants > were illegal? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Please support me in my walk to find a cure for Cystic Fibrosis http://www.cff.org/Great_Strides/AlecsandraBihlmaier As far as our love flows; as far as our hope grows; as far as our yearning goes; -- we are no farther one from another. ~ L. Annie Foerster __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

I would assume that lots of people came "legally" to the US but never became naturalized for a variety of reasons including not learning to speak English, lack of literacy skills, etc. I'm guessing that the issue of legal or illegal immigrants was quite different 200 years ago from what it is today. Likely there was much less concern for this issue unless people were in a location where the immigrants made "trouble" for some of the old timers. Seems it was the Irish who primarily built the Erie Canal, and with industrialization immigrants were welcomed to work in steel mills and other jobs that were hard, dirty and dangerous that long time US residents avoided. Margaret Scheffler ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat J." <patiowamom@netins.net> > Are these papers found by county, state or national level? > > If there are no papers, or we can't find any, does that mean our > immigrants > were illegal?

Hi Alice, I'm not a legal immigration expert, but I don't think it matters about someone who arrived in 1882. Many people began the naturalization process, but did not finish it. They were moving around a lot then, and may have started the process at Ellis Island, and not completed it after their 6 years of being in the US. I haven't found papers for my grgf who came in 1830, but that doesn't make him an illegal! Not at all. Every person who comes to this county, since I don't know when, requires a Visa. The Visa states how long one can stay, and whether or not one can work here. The problem today, other than the illegals from Mexico who walk over the border, are those people who come with Visas, but ignore the expiration date, and don't return to their country when they are supposed to. Those people are here illegally, hence "illegals". The INS had sort of turned a blind eye to this situation until 9/11, at which point they realized how lax they were at enforcement. A friend of a person I know just went back to Poland, after living and working here for 10 years illegally. She went before she was caught. The problem with this Chinese woman is that she is here illegally, but I believe her child has automatic citizenship by being born here! And the problem for the US is that they are right, she is illegal, but how do you send her back without the baby, who is legal? Naturalization rules have changed over the years, so you might want to do a search for them so to better understand them. One thing I remember from my readings, is I believe that anyone who fought for this country during our internal wars, was granted citiizenship without the necessary "papers." Also, I'm sure your relatives have papers somewhere. People usually didn't come to this country then without desiring to become a citizen...they were proud of this great country!!!! Your relatives, whether "paper legal" or not, are legal. In those days, when we needed the population, it wasn't such a big deal. But I'll bet they had papers somewhere! Patricia Alikat42@aol.com wrote: I just had a thought after reading about the Toys R Us contest for the first American baby born in 2007 -- they took away the price from the mother, and illegal Chinese immigrant. (Then after Chinese American outcry, reinstated the prize to the baby). My thought is: I have always assumed, as my Dad told me, his Mother's family came her from near Duesseldorf, Germany when she was 12, that they were legal immigrants as they came by ship and probably paid passage and had necessary papers. I thought only those who could walk across our borders were "illegals". Now this Chinese woman is said to be "illegal". I never thought someone from Asia could be illegal as they, too, like the Europeans, have to take a ship or plane to get here. (unless she went to Canada perhaps and walked over? - I am thinking as I write this) My question: How does anyone prove that an ancestor who came her in 1882 came here from Europe legally?? Thanks, Alice ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHLORAIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Are these papers found by county, state or national level? If there are no papers, or we can't find any, does that mean our immigrants were illegal?

I just had a thought after reading about the Toys R Us contest for the first American baby born in 2007 -- they took away the price from the mother, and illegal Chinese immigrant. (Then after Chinese American outcry, reinstated the prize to the baby). My thought is: I have always assumed, as my Dad told me, his Mother's family came her from near Duesseldorf, Germany when she was 12, that they were legal immigrants as they came by ship and probably paid passage and had necessary papers. I thought only those who could walk across our borders were "illegals". Now this Chinese woman is said to be "illegal". I never thought someone from Asia could be illegal as they, too, like the Europeans, have to take a ship or plane to get here. (unless she went to Canada perhaps and walked over? - I am thinking as I write this) My question: How does anyone prove that an ancestor who came her in 1882 came here from Europe legally?? Thanks, Alice