I think the biggest problem with folks publishing their books is that they seem shy about "tooting' their own horns and letting folks know the books are available! Maybe rootsweb could set up a site just specifically for them to list the books they have available for sale. I doubt if most folks even get their money back from the cost of the printing much less their travel expenses, but it would make them more available. There used to be a lady in Texas who printed quite a bit of her own work. It was very reasonable--in small paperbacks running less than $20 each. I would imagine you could sell more of these than the nicer hard cover books which often run $60 to $120. As a "piggyback" researcher (ie I depend on others who actually go to the courthouses and cemeteries rather than being able to go myself) I want to help share the cost but it is not feasible to pay that much for every date of death or marriage. Just my opinion but maybe there is way!

Either end...we need to be aware and to honor the copyright laws.... No problem in asking and no problem in helping... Remember though, if all the information from the books are given away and no books are sold there will be no incentive to publish more books. I have several people working on different books for different areas, and they are hesitant to even waste the money publishing because of this situation...there has to be a happy solution to everyone. I think that may be why the government set up the copyright laws in the first place. I wear many hats...and over the last 20 years have spent thousands of hours and $$$ helping others with their genealogy. I also publish books (8 on Knox Co. alone) and am the president of a local genealogy society...so you see I look at things from many different angles. Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy McCurdy <mccurdy@bright.net> To: Carol Montrose <cmontrose@beol.net> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Knox County Birth Records > sorry I thought it was better to ask at one time then bother someone with 3 > different e-mails. maybe they should not be willing to share if we are not > alowed to ask. > -----Original Message----- > From: Carol Montrose <cmontrose@beol.net> > To: Cindy McCurdy <mccurdy@bright.net>; OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com > <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Monday, September 25, 2000 7:33 AM > Subject: Re: Knox County Birth Records > > > >To keep within the copywriter guidelines, I think someone can only look up > >one person or possibly one surname per request... > > > >Carol > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Cindy McCurdy <mccurdy@bright.net> > >To: <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 3:05 PM > >Subject: Re: Knox County Birth Records > > > > > >> Hi, > >> Could you please look-up > >> children of Andrew Merrin & Margaret Rush > >> John Wise & Louisa Barton > >> Also 3 of Charles Wise & Sarah Merrin's children-Wellington, Howard & > >Alice > >> Thank you very much, > >> Cindy > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Echo Ralston <panda@im3.com> > >> To: OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 7:51 PM > >> Subject: Knox County Birth Records > >> > >> > >> >Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries > >> >Board URL: > >http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Oh/Knox?read=360 > >> > > >> >Surname: ROW, VANCE > >> >------------------------- > >> > > >> >I have just received in the mail the book "BIRTH RECORDS OF KNOX COUNTY, > >> >OHIO 1867 TO 1908" I will do look-ups for anyone who requests one. The > >> >book lists the child name in alphabetical order and then it also has an > >> >alphabetical Index of mothers by their maiden name. The families are > >listed > >> >together. > >> > > >> >Echo Ralston > >> > > >> > > >> >==== OHKNOX Mailing List ==== > >> >Homepage for this list is http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohknox/ > >> >To search this list go to > >> http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl and enter OHKNOX for > >the > >> list name. > >> > > >> > >> ______________________________ > > > >

Genealogy is a touchy area when it comes to copyright. Most of what is published is of interest to a very limited audience, mostly it is of interest to the author. As a librarian I am very anxious to have information in the hands of whoever might use it....To be honest in a book such as the birth records of Knox County most of the organization comes right from the public records as well as the information. I tend to error on the side of dissemination of information....spread the wealth so to speak. Cheryl

Hi, Does anyone have the Knox Co [Morgan Twp] records for 1910 or 1920? I'm looking for LaRue, George W. LaRue, Ellen/Elenor/Elinda LaRue, Christopher Columbus and Maggie. Thank you. Mitzi

Re: Copyright There's a lot of gray area in copyright law. I think understanding the basic concept is important. Copyright is the legal exclusive right of the author of a creative work to control the copying of the work. In the US, almost everything created privately and orginally after 1 Apr 1989 is copyrighted and protected whether it has a copyright notice or not. A note abt some of the books that have been printed on public records. Facts can't be copyrighted, but organization of the facts can be. When I first started doing look ups for people, I gave information with no limit. But after getting to know some of the people who published the records books, I reevaluated my position. These people have spent hours, days, weeks and/or months to make the information available to those of us who can't visit the courthouses, cemeteries, etc in our area of research. Most of them ask a fair price for the books they print. Considering the time they spend in travel and research and money they spend to have the book printed, it seems only fair that they should recoup the money spent and even be repaid some for their time. They aren't making a lot of money and those that I know are usually putting it back into another book. Most libraries have a notice posted near the copy machine regarding reproducing copyrighted material. It wasn't much of a leap for me to believe that wholesale copying of information from a copyrighted book was inappropriate. I, personally, decided that I feel comfortable enough looking up a couple of names or a surname. For more than that, I think the researcher should purchase the book. And a reminder that when doing a look up, always, always, always cite the source and compiler/editor. To quote Dennis Miller: "Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."

Hello, Would anyone have any information on James and Shan Holtz MEEKINS [both born ~1820 VA] whose daughter Elizabeth C. Meekins/Fry md Gillman B. Lahmon in Knox Co in 1856. Thank you for any help. Mitzi

I am not an expert on copyright but it seems to me that once someone owns a book the copyright laws are very cloudy...I am a librarian and I am wondering how you settled on one family or one surname? Cheryl Quinn

To keep within the copywriter guidelines, I think someone can only look up one person or possibly one surname per request... Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: Cindy McCurdy <mccurdy@bright.net> To: <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2000 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Knox County Birth Records > Hi, > Could you please look-up > children of Andrew Merrin & Margaret Rush > John Wise & Louisa Barton > Also 3 of Charles Wise & Sarah Merrin's children-Wellington, Howard & Alice > Thank you very much, > Cindy > -----Original Message----- > From: Echo Ralston <panda@im3.com> > To: OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 7:51 PM > Subject: Knox County Birth Records > > > >Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries > >Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Oh/Knox?read=360 > > > >Surname: ROW, VANCE > >------------------------- > > > >I have just received in the mail the book "BIRTH RECORDS OF KNOX COUNTY, > >OHIO 1867 TO 1908" I will do look-ups for anyone who requests one. The > >book lists the child name in alphabetical order and then it also has an > >alphabetical Index of mothers by their maiden name. The families are listed > >together. > > > >Echo Ralston > > > > > >==== OHKNOX Mailing List ==== > >Homepage for this list is http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohknox/ > >To search this list go to > http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl and enter OHKNOX for the > list name. > > > > ______________________________

Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries Reply Here: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Oh/Knox/434 Surname: Wisenburg, Alford, Weisenberg ------------------------- Looking for information on William Henry Wisenburg's (born 1842 in Knox County)parents Lewis Wisenburg and Rebecca Alford. This was apparently the second marriage for Rebecca and we believe she had 2 children from her first marriage. The family story is that Lewis was an itinerant German Jewish peddlar who emmigrated to the US from Germany. We don't know if that is true or not. If you have any information I will be happy to share what I have.

Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries Reply Here: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Oh/Knox/433 Surname: Williams, Gearhart ------------------------- Since my original message was posted I have determined that I was trying to put my Rosa Williams (Rosilla) into the wrong Swain Williams family. My Rosa Williams was daughter of the Swain Williams of Licking Co. Ohio. NOT THE SWAIN WILLIAMS OF ALLEN CO. OHIO. I have found Indiana census information on my Christopher Williams and letters written by his daughter Hazel that cements this Chris as a brother to my Rosa E. Williams. I will start with the 1840 Licking Co. Ohio Census. Licking Co. OH, 1840 census Swain Williams, Males 20-30 = 1 Females Under 5 = 1 (probably Nancy in the 1850 Jersey twp, Licking Co. OH census) Females 15-20 = 1 1850 Jersey Twp., Licking Co. Ohio Swano Williams, 34, farmer, Real Property $1200, b. NJ Phebe, 38, b. Ohio (first wife of Swain) Nancy, 11, b. Ohio Mary, 4, b. Ohio Enos, 1, b. Ohio 1860 Jersey Twp., Licking Co., Ohio Swain Williams, 44, farmer, Real Property $2500, Personal Property $450 Mary, 35, Nancy, 22 (child of Phebe? and Swain) Mary, 14 (child of Phebe? and Swain) Enos, 11 (child of Phebe and Swain) Phebe, 9 (this could very well be child of Phebe and Swain) Ellen 7 (this is probably the Rosa in the 1870 census, since she was Rosa Ellen in documents) Almira, 5 (mentioned in letters in my possession) Francis, 3 (have a picture of Frank ) 1870 Jersey Twp., Licking Co. Ohio Williams, Swain O., 55, farmer, RE $5000, PP $600, b. NJ Mary A., 44, Keeping House, b. Ohio Rosa, 17, attending school, b. Ohio ( my gr grandmother) Enos, 21, work on farm, b. Ohio (son of Swain and Phebe ?) Almira, 14, attending school, b. Ohio (mentioned in another letter I have) Francis, 12, attending school, b. Ohio (is this Frank that I have the picture of?) Lizzie, 10, attending school, b. Ohio (Aunt Lizzie Ball in Kiowa KS? Have picture of Lizzie on farm in Kiowa KS, married Dan Ball. Hazel Williams Baker mentions a visit with Aunt Lizzie in 1936) Christofer, 4, b. Ohio (this is Chris born April 24, 1866) all the children in the 1870 census for Swain Williams of Licking Co. Ohio are mentioned in letters that I have found in possession of my Williams family descendants. With one Exception, Enos (child of Swain and Phoebe is not mentioned) Now here is the census information on Christopher Williams after he moved to Indiana and got married: one of the letters that I have, was written from Elwood IND. by Hazel Williams Baker, dau of Chris. 1920 Elwood, Pipe Creek Twp., Madison Co. IN, ED 138, pg. 4A Williams, Christopher D., head, 53, Married, b. OH, FB NJ, MB OH Victoria, wife, 51, married, b. IN, FB OH, MB, OH 1910 Elwood City, Pipe Creek Twp., Madison Co. IN, ED 122, Sheet 9B Williams, Christopher D., head, 43, M 18 years, b. OH, painter(married abt 1892) Victoria, wife, 41, M18 years, 1 child, 1 living, b. IN Hazel, daughter, 14, b. IN 1900 Elwood, Pipe Creek Twp., Madison Co. IN, ED 107, Sheet 5A Williams, Chris D., head, Apr 1866, 34, M8, b. OH Victoria S., wife, Dec. 1868, 31, M8, 1 child, 1 living, b. IN Hazel, daughter, June 1895, 4, b. IN Mary A., mother, May 1825, 75, Wd., 5 children, 5 living, b. OH, FB ME, MB OH Now it looks as If in 1900, MARY A. (CHRIS' mother ) was living with them. and it says that Mary A. was a widow, born in OH, father born ME and mother born Ohio. by 1910 Mary A. had either died or moved away from Chris' home. It also says that Mary A had 5 children and 5 were living.(agrees with OH census info) In the 1870 census from OH it shows 6 children.(I believe one of these 6 was child of Phebe first wife of Swain) as does the picture I have of Swain Williams and a wife (Mary A?) but if you count all the children listed in all the census info for this family, Swain Williams of Licking Co. Ohio, was the father of 9 children.(more on this later) the 1900 Indiana census also tells us that Mary A. was born May 1825. OH. Now if you look at the 1920 Ind. census. it tells us that Chris' father was born in NJ and his mother was born in OH. So this Mary A. is NOT Mary Doud. It is pretty obvious that Mary M. Doud(wife of Swain Williams in Allen Co. OH) and Mary A. are two different people. There were 2 Swain Williams, both having fathers born in NJ. It looks like Swain Williams of Licking Co. OH was born in 1815-1816 and the Swain Williams or S. O. Williams of Susquehanna Co. PA and Allen Co. OH was born in 1810-1811. It also looks like my Swain may have been married first to a Phebe before he married Mary A. (see 1850 and 1860 Licking Co. OH census) It also appears that Swain Williams of Licking Co. Ohio was the father of 9 children, 4 with Phebe and 5 with Mary A. (this agrees with the 1900 Indiana Census that shows Mary A. with 5 living children) but there are 6 children pictured with them in the picture that I have. (one could be a child in law or one of Phebe's children perhaps Enos. there are 3 boys pictured and per census it shows that Mary and Swain only had 2 boys (Frank and Chris) altho in the picture It does show one of the girls on the arm of one of the boys, like it may be her husband. So I am claiming the Swain Williams family of Licking Co. Ohio as my family, the evidence in pictures and letters that I have obtained positively cement my Gr grandmother Rosa E. Williams to this family. The Swain Williams of Allen Co. Ohio also had a Rosilla Williams.(see 1850 Susquehanna Co. PA Census) that was the info that made me think that I connected to that family. What I need to find out now, is who is the father of the my Swain Williams in Licking Co. Jersey twp, Ohio????? I would appreciate any thoughts, ideas or info that anyone could supply. thank you. Connie Bottolfsen Loftus The following information pertains to the other Swain Williams in Allen Co. Ohio 1860 and 1850 in Susquehanna Co. PA. See FTM CD 114 (I think that CD # is Correct) 3. SWAIN O.3 WILLIAMS (GERSHOM2, ENOS1) was born 1809 in Caldwell, Essex Co, NJ, and died 1866. He married MARY M. DOUD, daughter of DANIEL DOUD. She was born 1812 in Susquehanna Co., PA, and died 1858. Swain Williams of Allen County Ohio, came from New Jersey by way of Susquehanna Co. PA. his children were: 1850 Lenox Twp., Susquehanna Co., PA pg. 94 (Swain Williams also listed in 1840 PA census for Susquehanna Co.) Swayne O. Williams, 39, Carpenter, RE $2000, b. NJ Myrinda, 37, b. NJ Rosilla, 17, b. NJ Dorcoxa, 15, b. NJ Alvina, 10, b. PA Bemis, 7, b. PA F_____ S., 3, b. PA (probably Freeman S.) Baby, 2/12(?), b. PA Then this Swain Williams of Susquehanna Co. PA shows up in the Allen Co. PA census: 1860. Post Office: Lima, Shawnee Twp., Allen Co. OH, pg. 100 Family No. 692 S.O. Williams, 49, farmer RE $3200, b. NJ E., 49, b. PA M. 20, domestic, b. PA D.H., 17, farm labor, b. PA T.S., 13, b. PA N.P., 8, b. OH M.E., 3, b. OH L. Cobb, 16, domestic, b. PA J.A., 10, b. OH E., 73, (male), b. NJ now we find Freeman S. son of Swain Williams of Allen County Ohio in this census: 1880 Union Twp., Putnam Co. OH Williams, Freeman S., 33, Physician, b. Penn. ( this is most certainly child of Swain of Allen Co OH and Susquehanna PA) Norah, 23, b. OH Grace, 2, b. OH Gaylord, 9/12, b. OH Callihan, William, 9, nephew, b. OH I know this is a long post and will take time to study for any of you interested. I wanted to clarify the relationships so there was not misinformation out there. thanks everyone.

Cheryl, Rebecca's maiden name was Uhl and the other children were: Eli, b. 1830 Catherine, b. 1832 Ann Teresa, b. 1835 George, b. 1837 Charles Clement, b. 1839 Francis I., b. 1841 Mary E., b. 1842 Lucinda, b. 1845 William Louis, b. 1847 Levi Thomas, b. 1849 Martha Jane, b. 1854 CherylQ@aol.com wrote: > Would it be be possible to do this look up for me... > Francis Logsdon was born in Knox County in May of 1841...he was the son of > David Logsdon and Rebecca ?...could I find out Rebecca's maiden name and the > names of the other children born to David and Rebecca.... > Thank you > Cheryl Quinn > > ==== OHKNOX Mailing List ==== > Listowner Email is 73777.25@compuserve.com or MaggieOhio@columbus.rr.com -- Sue Snodgrass "Genealogy is my habit" Addresses: ssnodgrass@millenicom.com or suesnodgr@iname.com or suesfamily@virtualave.net Web Page: http://suesfamily.virtualave.net * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * 1st Seven Generations: Ashbaugh * Bauscher * Carr * Church * Cornell * Cly * Close * Conner * Critchfield * DeVore * Dillon * Eley * Engelhardt * Fesler * Hermann * Hoyman * Humphrey * Johns(t)on/Johnstone * Korns * Lux * Minger * Monroe/Munro * Remington * Reed * Severns * Shultzmann * Storck * Swartz ** Uhl * Warner * Wolfe * Workman * Zilles

Would it be be possible to do this look up for me... Francis Logsdon was born in Knox County in May of 1841...he was the son of David Logsdon and Rebecca ?...could I find out Rebecca's maiden name and the names of the other children born to David and Rebecca.... Thank you Cheryl Quinn

Durned spelling checker....William VIAN married Jane PERKINS not William VAIN

William VAIN married Jane PERKINS not long before 1820 (they show up on the census as a family) Marriage is not listed in Probate Court Marriage records although Wm.'s sister "Katy" (Catharine) marriage is there when she married Noble IRELAND in the 18teens......if anyone finds these names in any location...church records, references to other families etc...would appreicate a "shout". Wm. & Jane (PERKINS) VIAN lived on a farm near Amity and are buried there. Thanks in advance.

Until 1889 (Vol 6 of the Knox Co. marriages) parents were not required on marriage "licenses" unless the child was a minor. Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: Darlene Hoffmark <NapaDar@aol.com> To: <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 7:49 PM Subject: Cooper, Lindsey, Austen, King > Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries > Reply Here: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Oh/Knox/429 > > Surname: COOPER, LINDSEY, KING, AUSTEN > ------------------------- > > Have placed Thomas B Lindsey in Knox County from 1815 to 1846. He was born > Uniontown, Pennsylvania and in 1846 moved to Findlay, Hancock Co, Ohio > with wife Angaline (Cooper). Would like to establish if this is location > of other Cooper marriages/deaths. Parents of Angaline, Martha, Edwin and > Elizabeth were Jacob Cooper and Lydia Bartlette. Other siblings, Sarah > L, Catherine , Emily and Amanda. > > ______________________________

There is a will for Eleazer Johnson who died in 1846 wife Margaret sons: John, Henry, Warden, Eleazor, four daughters not named.... From R.DeLauder's book: Knox Co. Wills Vol. 1 1808-1877 That is the only mention of a Henry up to the 1877 cut off date. I don't have Vol 2 of the Knox Co. Wills (1877-1897) nor any of the other Knox Co. publications at hand. Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: Shanan Anderson <mariahswind@yahoo.com> To: <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 4:21 AM Subject: Johnson's from SW Pennsylvania > Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries > Reply Here: http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/gc/USA/Oh/Knox/430 > > Surname: Johnson, Ball > ------------------------- > > Henry Johnson b. abt 1817 in PA > Nancy Johnson(Ball)b. abt 1818 in PA > Children > Mary Amanda b. 18 Nov 1841 Knox Co., Oh > Sarah Elizabeth b. abt 1844 Knox Co., Oh > Byron Lenard b. abt 1848 Knox Co., Oh > Frank W. b. abt 1854 Knox Co., Oh > Alice b. abt 1857 Knox Co., Oh > > Francis Johnson possibly Henry's brother also with Henry's family on 1860 > census for Knox Co... along with wife Janet. > > Henry and Francis were both oilmakers.. making me assume they were from > southwestern Pensylvania >

Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries Reply Here: http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/gc/USA/Oh/Knox/430 Surname: Johnson, Ball ------------------------- Henry Johnson b. abt 1817 in PA Nancy Johnson(Ball)b. abt 1818 in PA Children Mary Amanda b. 18 Nov 1841 Knox Co., Oh Sarah Elizabeth b. abt 1844 Knox Co., Oh Byron Lenard b. abt 1848 Knox Co., Oh Frank W. b. abt 1854 Knox Co., Oh Alice b. abt 1857 Knox Co., Oh Francis Johnson possibly Henry's brother also with Henry's family on 1860 census for Knox Co... along with wife Janet. Henry and Francis were both oilmakers.. making me assume they were from southwestern Pensylvania

Hi, Could you please look-up children of Andrew Merrin & Margaret Rush John Wise & Louisa Barton Also 3 of Charles Wise & Sarah Merrin's children-Wellington, Howard & Alice Thank you very much, Cindy -----Original Message----- From: Echo Ralston <panda@im3.com> To: OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com <OHKNOX-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Monday, July 03, 2000 7:51 PM Subject: Knox County Birth Records >Posted on: Knox Co. Oh Queries >Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Oh/Knox?read=360 > >Surname: ROW, VANCE >------------------------- > >I have just received in the mail the book "BIRTH RECORDS OF KNOX COUNTY, >OHIO 1867 TO 1908" I will do look-ups for anyone who requests one. The >book lists the child name in alphabetical order and then it also has an >alphabetical Index of mothers by their maiden name. The families are listed >together. > >Echo Ralston > > >==== OHKNOX Mailing List ==== >Homepage for this list is http://www.rootsweb.com/~ohknox/ >To search this list go to http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl and enter OHKNOX for the list name. >

To look at index's at rootsweb go to the home page http://www.rootsweb.com scroll down on right side of page to Census project under U S Gen Web Archives and click on it, and follow instructions for getting to where ever you want to go. Lots are not online but under Ohio the 1850 Knox County Index is (Index only) Alice

----- Original Message ----- From: "Carol Montrose" <cmontrose@beol.net> To: <PAWASHIN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 5:37 PM Subject: [PAWASHIN-L] Fw: [IA-Rooters] Another cemetery being moved > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Maria Minear <mminear11@mcn.net> > To: Athena Mae Porter <Porter@imt.net>; Corky Knebel <corkykn@imt.net> > Cc: Barbara Humphreys <jambutty@idx.com.au>; Barbara Martin Minear > <bmm@owsantas.com> > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2000 5:59 PM > Subject: [IA-Rooters] Another cemetery being moved > > > > Hello, > > > > I live in St. Louis, Missouri and saw on the local news tonight that there > > is a BRIDGETON MEMORIAL PARK - 1843 - 1963 ( North St. Louis) that is > > looking > > for persons with family buried there. The airport is being expanded and > > they > > are going to move the CEMETERY. > > > > Is there a way to get this message to as many listers as possible in a > > short amount of time? > > > > Can you help! > > > > Pat Jones Smith > > St. Louis, Missouri USA > > MSmith3030@aol.com > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > List Admin- IA-Rooters-Owner@genexchange.org > > IA GenExchange: http://www.genexchange.org/state.cfm?state=ia > > US GenExchange: http://www.genexchange.org/us.cfm > > Mailing Lists: http://www.genexchange.org/MailListForm.cfm > > > > ______________________________