Jan, You are simply posting more of the hoax. You list (see below) a supposed "experiment" that is characterized as "new research on the matter". It is supposed to show that 5 minutes of shaving cream led to 1mm of surface disintegration. This is ridiculous. Do the math. At 1mm per 5 minutes means that a 4" stone would be completely dissolved in 8 hours! Are we really supposed to believe that a stone can be completely dissolved by shaving cream in 8 hours, based on this "new research on the matter"? This is absurd. Furthermore, the notion that stearic acid will dissolve stone is SIMPLY FALSE. That is exactly what the hoax is all about. It is the intention of saying that stearic acid will react with stone the same exact way hydrochloric acid or sulfuric acid will. It doesn't. It never has, and it never will. Stearic acid and hydrochloric have different properties. Hydrochloric acid will dissolve stone, and stearic acid will not. Simply put, Brec Morton is wrong. He believes that stearic acid behaves as a strong mineral acid when it is actually a weak organic acid. Brec Morton doesn't even understand the pH of rain in his own area. By his own post he claims most rains in North Texas are alkaline (as evidenced by his swimming pool pH balance, evidently), when any cursory investigation into the matter shows that far from being "almost always alkaline", as is his claim (see below), the truth of the matter is that the annual precipitation-weighted mean hydrogen ion concentration as pH in Nor! th Texas is between 5.3 and 5.5, in other words, acidic. Unfortunately, Brec Morton has rather stepped out of his area of expertise, and unmasked himself as being frightfully unknowledgeable in the area of chemistry by showing his fundamental misunderstanding of the pH scale, a lack of ability to distinguish the chemical reactivities of different kinds of acids, and finally in promoting an "experiment" his conclusion regarding which is not even remotely plausible. Simply restating the hoax doesn't make it any less of a hoax. At the crux of this hoax is the belief that stearic acid behaves the same a hydrochloric acid. It doesn't. It is a different acid, with different chemical properties. It simply doesn't dissolve stone, and people who claim that it does are in clear error, whether they are "a geologist" or not. Esther S. ----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> To: ohallen@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:44:41 PM Subject: Re: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones-my last response Esther; First you do not mention the link to the hoax site for others to judge the validity of the information. I work with historic textiles and am therefore extremely conscious of the need for good conservation methods on anything. Our credo is "When in doubt...don't". Because something seems safe, doesn't make it chemically so. I have also worked with a gravestone conservator who is strictly against the use of shaving cream. There are non-intrusive alternatives so I would refer you to the post and links within the link below for further consideration of your hoax site. It is from Brec Morton, a geologist, on MO-CEMETERIES. Jan Thomas Textile Specialist, Historian and Independent Researcher Mr. Morton writes: "I was reading an editorial in "Heritage Quest" by Leland K. Meitzler about why he continues to use shaving cream to enhance his photos of tombstones. Many people in this group know that I am an activist AGAINST this practice, because the stearic acid in the shaving cream will dissolve MgCO3/CaCO3 that makes up typical marble stones. Since most people are not experts in the different gravestone types, as a geologist by training I suggested people stay away from shaving cream on tombstones altogether. If it's bad for a car finish, it's bad for a tombstone. Mr. Meitzler was clearly referring to my Internet articles in his editorial. He wrote: "The gentleman has a point, in that shaving cream contains stearic acid, putting the shaving cream in the pH 5 range. This makes it a rather acid substance. It was stated that it is even more acid than acid rain! I'm sorry, but acid rain has been a problem since the inception of the industrial revolution. It has gone on day after day, with little let-up. The use of shaving cream, wiped across the face of a headstone, and then washed off doesn't even seem to be in the same league....For my own part, I'll continue to use shaving cream, because it works better than any other medium for allowing us to read headstones that are otherwise illegible. I use small amounts of it....after photographing the stone, I then wash the shaving cream from the stone..." [Meitzler does not report on what has already worked its way into the stone] Geologist Morton's reply: First of all, let me comment on the above. Then let me add some new research on the matter. Comments: 1) I'm glad he called me a "gentleman". Very few people say that about me ;-) 2) The time of reaction is very brief, as anyone who has mixed baking soda with vinegar will attest to. The damage commences within seconds of initial contact. Even acid rain works the same way. It is not the length of time that matters so much as it is the fact that you add the acid to the stone in the first place. 3) Acid rain comes and goes. In one rainstorm, the drops could be acidic. In the next they could be alkaline. I know here in North Texas, the rains are almost always alkaline. I know this because everytime it rains, I have to add acid to my pool to balance it. Recently, great strides have been made reducing air polution, which is the leading cause of acid rain. Why would Mr. Meitzler want to exacerbate a known problem that may have been arrested? 4) Shaving cream may be an easier medium to work with, but should laziness be the reason we damage gravestones for future generations? Now for some new research into this problem... My son took on this idea for his Science Fair project this year. And he came to some interesting conclusions. He took sample tiles of fresh polished rock that he knew was used for gravestones in our area. Then he subjected them to various acid tests. He also went to different cemeteries and recorded the amount of erosion based on the assumption that the stone was the same age as the date the person died. For the igneous crystalline rocks, such as granite or black granite (actually called diabase), acid caused no visible damage. Some of the sandstone headstones showed damage and some not. This was related to the composition of the intergrain cement that holds the sand together. Some cement was made of CaCO3 and showed the most chemical weathering. Now for the marble stones, which seem to make up the majority of the gravestones in our area.... Obviously, there were significant chemical weathering effects that were visible. Even new stones were not immune. At the very least, the polish was completely removed from the stone, indicating at least 1 mm of surface disintigration had occurred. He soaked the fresh tiles in an acid bath of pH 3 for five minutes. He observed a minimum of 3 mm of surface disintigration, sometimes more. This represented the equivalent of about 50-100 years of chemical weathering. The point was that it took only 5 minutes to reproduce years of weathering! He also tried using shaving cream (Gillette Foamy). It is admittedly less acidic then his experimental acid bath. In five minutes, it had completely removed the polish from the marble. This indicates a minimum of about 1 mm of surface disintigration. Since old gravestone carvings are typically only 3-5 mm deep, shaving cream causes significant damage to marble stones. Even if you only leave it on the stone for the length of time necessary to take a photograph, the damage is done! One millimeter of damage may be hard to notice, but it is real damage nonetheless. Why damage something needlessly? Will our future generations thank us because, in our haste and convenience, we have actively contributed towards a gravestone that will become illegible sooner? This was something that was meant for them to read, as well. The bottom line is this: DON'T USE SHAVING CREAM ON TOMBSTONES! Please check the following link on misinformation on this subject. _http://www.savinggraves.org/education/bookshelf/shavingcream.htm_ (http://www.savinggraves.org/education/bookshelf/shavingcream.htm) In a message dated 10/30/2006 9:29:35 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, gravinggranny@yahoo.com writes: the idea that shaving cream harms tombstones really is a hoax, and that's why I posted to this list, because a lot of people have been taken in by the hoax and have never been exposed to the information which exposes this fraud. This is the point of the hoax webpage that was set up, because just like the ban DHMO website, it looks convincing when you read it, but the authors are snickering at all the people who fall for it. That's why I am glad the shaving cream expose was posted, even if I don't use shaving cream myself. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message