----- Original Message ---- From: Kenneth Graham gram9876@hotmail.com >There's no need to gunk up >gravestones with shaving cream or other materials. I agree that there is no NEED to gunk up gravestones with shaving cream (though some disagree with even this). I also think there is no NEED to resort to unsubstantiated fearmongering to convince people not to do it. >>Indeed, even with vigorous scrubbing and lots of rinsing, >>the cream fills in the pores of a porous stone and cannot all be >>removed. Indeed? Where is the evidence that the cream can't be removed? If anyone has evidence that it is "indeed" the case, then I would be most pleased to receive it. Does anyone have evidence that demonstrates that shaving cream leaves a residue in spite of attempts to wash it off? This almost exactly mirrors the statement made at the shaving cream hoax website: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gbonner/misc/shavingcream.html "Misleading/erroneous comment: "Shaving cream does, indeed, leave an acid residue that does not wash off. It destroys marble and limestone". Source: Newsletter of the Canterbury Genealogy Society Discussion Group, February 2000 Why it is misleading/erroneous: Because the word "indeed" represents a factual basis. The statement should have read, "Shaving cream does, in our opinion, leave an acid residue that does not wash off. The fact of the matter is that nobody has ever reported an experiment that even pretends to make a determination of the presence or absence of any residue. It is simply an opinion, masquerading as if it were fact. If it "indeed" leaves a residue, then what method was used to determine that a residue was present? How was it determined that the residue was from shaving cream? Where are the data/measurements that back up the claim that a residue persists? The answer is - nowhere...this experiment has never been done. The last part of the quote, about "destroying marble and limestone" is in error, as addressed above. The hoaxers rely on you simply believing a pronouncement without having need for ever providing any evidence that it is true." It seems to me that the voice of reason is the one that asks people to base their beliefs on the evidence, rather than unfounded opinion. Esther S.

St. Paul's Evangelical Church was Luthern and you said they lived in Perry twp I would think they went to this church since they are buried in the cemetery. Use google and type in St. Paul's Evangelical Cemetery St. John and Breese Rd. Perry Twp. Allen Co., OH and you will get more info than I am putting here. I did that with the church and that is why I said it was Luthern. My daughter was just by the cemetery but can't remember if there was a church there. Don't worry she is now grabbing her phone book. ;-) Tootsie Shoemaker On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:04:27 -0500, Lilly Martin <malik@scs-net.org> wrote: > Hello, > Since we are discussing churches: would anyone remember St. Paul's > Evangelical Church? > > My ancestors lived in Perry twsp, Lima, OH. They are both buried at St. > Paul's Evangelical Cemetery on St. Johns and Breese Rd. > > I am not certain if the Cemetery is connected to a Church? Or perhaps is > only a Protestant Cemetery, and not actually affilated with a church? > > My ancestors were German immigrants, and lived in Lima Oh at least from > 1880 > to 1902 and 1905 when they each died there. Given that location, where > would a German immigrant couple attend church? > > Best regards, > Lilly Martin > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Lord, keep your arm around my shoulder and Your hand over my mouth.

JoAnn, Thanks for the voice of reason. I agree that only non-invasive alternatives are required to preserve and protect tombstones. There's no need to gunk up gravestones with shaving cream or other materials. To use another analogy: When hiking in the wilderness, we're asked to take only photos and leave only footprints. I think the same applies to documenting gravestones. Thanks for the info. Ken >From: JoAnn <ka7suz@concentric.net> >Reply-To: ohallen@rootsweb.com >To: ohallen@rootsweb.com >Subject: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones >Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:40:13 -0800 > >I have not had a chance to read every comment on this subject, so >this may have been published already, if so, I apologize. I consider >this to be the 'last word' on tombstone care: > >http://www.gravestonestudies.org/ > >Here is what they say about shaving cream: > >Why can't I use shaving cream to highlight inscriptions on difficult >to read stones? > >Our professional conservators tell us it is definitely not a good >idea to use shaving cream on porous gravestones because there are >chemicals, greasy emollients, in shaving cream that are sticky and >very difficult to remove from the stone with a simple >washing. Indeed, even with vigorous scrubbing and lots of rinsing, >the cream fills in the pores of a porous stone and cannot all be >removed. The result of leaving it there is that in time it may >discolor or damage the stone. > >Instead, use a mirror to shine sunlight across the face of a stone, >making the lettering stand out. For an explanatory leaflet on this >technique, see Store Directory, Field Guides, "Photographing >Gravestones." Always prefer a non-invasive method on gravestones >just as we do on medical tests on our own bodies. >------------------------------------ > I have found that on some stones a simple misting of water >will enhance some engraving. Otherwise I take the best photo that I >can, reflecting light, providing shade, whatever it is. Sometimes I >"read" the letters with my fingers and then I transcribe it as best I >can and record that with the picture. If it is not perfectly >readable, that information is noted. > > Share your photos and/or transcriptions with the local >historical and/or genealogical society so that if a time comes when >the inscription is completely gone, there will be a record for >others. It is okay to add more information about the person, >including that with your submission to the society. > >JoAnn > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us

----- Original Message ---- From: JoAnn ka7suz@concentric.net >>>Our professional conservators tell us >From the page first cited (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~gbonner/misc/shavingcream.html): "Misleading/erroneous comment: "Our professional conservators tell us it is definitely not a good idea to use shaving cream on porous gravestones..." Source: Association for Gravestone Studies Why it is misleading/erroneous: This is logical fallacy known as appeal to false authority. Do any of these "professional conservators" have names? Of course not. The fact of the matter is that the hoaxers rely on you believing that these "professional conservators" exist. If you ask for some names, then you will be met with another of the hoaxsters tactics...the goose chase. Why not just list the conservators' names with the comments supposedly attributed to them? Because it's a hoax." >>>Indeed, even with vigorous scrubbing and lots of rinsing, the cream fills in the pores of a porous stone and cannot all be removed. Where is the evidence that backs up this assertion? Water is just about the smallest molecule in the known universe. How in the world could any constituent of shaving cream (except the water itself) get into a place where a much SMALLER molecule cannot? It defies logic. Why would you look to AGS as the last word on the issue? Nobody affiliated therewith has any professional expertise in chemical weathering that I can find. Every time I ask for someone of that group to offer evidence to support their claims, it turns out it is nothing more than the opinion of a weed-puller somewhere. They are surely fine for graveyard preservation and cleaning of stones, but when it comes to chemical weathering they are simply out of their area of expertise, and are no more authoritative on the subject than the man on the street. Esther S.

I have not had a chance to read every comment on this subject, so this may have been published already, if so, I apologize. I consider this to be the 'last word' on tombstone care: http://www.gravestonestudies.org/ Here is what they say about shaving cream: Why can't I use shaving cream to highlight inscriptions on difficult to read stones? Our professional conservators tell us it is definitely not a good idea to use shaving cream on porous gravestones because there are chemicals, greasy emollients, in shaving cream that are sticky and very difficult to remove from the stone with a simple washing. Indeed, even with vigorous scrubbing and lots of rinsing, the cream fills in the pores of a porous stone and cannot all be removed. The result of leaving it there is that in time it may discolor or damage the stone. Instead, use a mirror to shine sunlight across the face of a stone, making the lettering stand out. For an explanatory leaflet on this technique, see Store Directory, Field Guides, "Photographing Gravestones." Always prefer a non-invasive method on gravestones just as we do on medical tests on our own bodies. ------------------------------------ I have found that on some stones a simple misting of water will enhance some engraving. Otherwise I take the best photo that I can, reflecting light, providing shade, whatever it is. Sometimes I "read" the letters with my fingers and then I transcribe it as best I can and record that with the picture. If it is not perfectly readable, that information is noted. Share your photos and/or transcriptions with the local historical and/or genealogical society so that if a time comes when the inscription is completely gone, there will be a record for others. It is okay to add more information about the person, including that with your submission to the society. JoAnn

Hello everyone, When I sent the site to the list about the shaving cream and tombstones, I never imagined that it would get to be such a big debate and argument. I sent it just because I thought that it was interesting. I am sorry. Charlotte

Dear Listers; I apologize if my posts seemed unnecessary. I am surprised that this discussion rose to the perceived level of anger that it did. I am taking the matter to other recognized persons in this field. Please forgive that I let it get out of hand before going off list. Jan

The horse is dead, stop beating it ----- Original Message ----- From: pam To: ohallen@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones-my last response Oh come on folks. None of us need our inboxes clogged with this argument. You've both spoken your points of view...let's leave it at that shall we? ----- Original Message ----- From: Esther Simmons To: ohallen@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones-my last response ----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> >>>As I said before "When in doubt, don't" As I said, I have worked with a stone conservator's company and they know shaving cream to be harmful because of scientific studies. Like the last scientific study you posted? The one that suggested a tombstone would completely disappear if covered in shaving cream for 8 hours? Is this the kind of "scientific study" to which you refer? >>>Cite your sources for us. That's curious, what's good for the gander is apparently too good for the goose. I didn't see you cite any of your sources, except the ridiculous one that suggested that a tombstone would dissolve in 8 hours if covered in shaving cream. You mention "scientific studies" (see above) but you don't include any citation. Why is that? If you are going to make pretense that these scientific investigations exist, then please cite them. Only this time, please don't bother citing those that are clearly impossible. Esther S. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Oh come on folks. None of us need our inboxes clogged with this argument. You've both spoken your points of view...let's leave it at that shall we? ----- Original Message ----- From: Esther Simmons To: ohallen@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones-my last response ----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> >>>As I said before "When in doubt, don't" As I said, I have worked with a stone conservator's company and they know shaving cream to be harmful because of scientific studies. Like the last scientific study you posted? The one that suggested a tombstone would completely disappear if covered in shaving cream for 8 hours? Is this the kind of "scientific study" to which you refer? >>>Cite your sources for us. That's curious, what's good for the gander is apparently too good for the goose. I didn't see you cite any of your sources, except the ridiculous one that suggested that a tombstone would dissolve in 8 hours if covered in shaving cream. You mention "scientific studies" (see above) but you don't include any citation. Why is that? If you are going to make pretense that these scientific investigations exist, then please cite them. Only this time, please don't bother citing those that are clearly impossible. Esther S. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 10/30/2006 3:17:50 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, gravinggranny@yahoo.com writes: >>>Call a stone conservator.....those who do study various chemical effects on stone if you do not believe other's research. I have called dozens. None of them have any evidence that shaving cream harms tombstones. And the reason they don't is because it is a hoax. As I said before "When in doubt, don't" As I said, I have worked with a stone conservator's company and they know shaving cream to be harmful because of scientific studies. Cite your sources for us. Please advise me of the names of the 'dozens' of stone conservators you have contacted and I will call them myself. Ladies and gentlemen, the pursuit of the truth is worth getting into the very appropriately named 'lather' (good one). Our responsibility to current and future genealogists requires that we act with caution at all times....whether it is old paper, old sources or old stone. This is not a nasty disagreement on my part, merely a stating of facts. If the group prefers (and I do respect your desire to go to another topic), then possibly Esther could respond to this off list. I will be out of town to a museum meeting for the next 24 hours but rest assured I will answer. Yours, Jan

Don't you think there has been enough conversation about shaving cream. Roberta Iiames

Mmmm...maybe this disagreement could be taken off list? Accusations and counter accusations aren't really what this list is about. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: Esther Simmons To: ohallen@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 5:16 PM Subject: Re: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones-my last response ----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> >>>If you do not believe the words of those who research the minute details of conservation then I suppose there is no way to convince you to study the other opinions. What are you talking about? You posted a study that suggests a tombstone would be completely dissolved in 8 hours if covered with shaving cream. Are these the "minute details of conservation" that I am supposed to take seriously? I am all far studying the other opinions, but what I am not for is believing the patently absurd just because some ostensible "authority" said it...especially when the things they are saying are demonstrably false or in clear error, and have already been demonstrated to be in clear error. Sorry, but a tombstone completely melting due to shaving cream in 8 hours is hardly the "research of minute details of conservation" that you would like to hold them up to be. >>>Call a stone conservator.....those who do study various chemical effects on stone if you do not believe other's research. I have called dozens. None of them have any evidence that shaving cream harms tombstones. And the reason they don't is because it is a hoax. >>>It is people like you who, in the name of stubbornness, ruin it for the future. Ruin what for the future? What am I ruining? What is the "it" to which you refer? The only thing I am ruining is the hoax that shaving cream harms tombstones. Esther S. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 04:57 PM 10/30/2006, you wrote: >My, you folks sure are getting into a lather about this! BURMA SHAVE! > >Jim Hooper > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, Since we are discussing churches: would anyone remember St. Paul's Evangelical Church? My ancestors lived in Perry twsp, Lima, OH. They are both buried at St. Paul's Evangelical Cemetery on St. Johns and Breese Rd. I am not certain if the Cemetery is connected to a Church? Or perhaps is only a Protestant Cemetery, and not actually affilated with a church? My ancestors were German immigrants, and lived in Lima Oh at least from 1880 to 1902 and 1905 when they each died there. Given that location, where would a German immigrant couple attend church? Best regards, Lilly Martin

My, you folks sure are getting into a lather about this! Jim Hooper

In a message dated 10/30/2006 2:32:05 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, gravinggranny@yahoo.com writes: Jan, You are simply posting more of the hoax Esther, If you do not believe the words of those who research the minute details of conservation then I suppose there is no way to convince you to study the other opinions. I have seen more damage done to old things in the name of convenience, stupidity and false information. I see it every day. Dirt, itself, acts like a broken shard of glass working its way through substances and a rock is not impervious to damage. Call a stone conservator.....those who do study various chemical effects on stone if you do not believe other's research. I know what the answer will be. It is people like you who, in the name of stubbornness, ruin it for the future. Jan

Hi Charlotte, There is no need to apologize. So many people have fallen for this hoax that I think it is a good thing that it has been exposed as a fraud by someone whose professional training and expertise is in the subjects of organic acid chemistry and geochemistry, and that it is brought to light on these lists. Some people will not want to read about it, but they can just hit the delete button on those subject lines just like they do all the other ones they don't want to read. But I still think it is better to inform folks they have fallen for a hoax than to let them go on in ignorance. After all, honesty is the best policy. Sincerely, Esther S. ----- Original Message ---- From: "CharlotteAnneMlr@aol.com" <CharlotteAnneMlr@aol.com> To: OHALLEN@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 5:52:59 PM Subject: [OHALLEN] Apology to the List Hello everyone, When I sent the site to the list about the shaving cream and tombstones, I never imagined that it would get to be such a big debate and argument. I sent it just because I thought that it was interesting. I am sorry. Charlotte ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jan, Don't worry - I don't think you seemed any more angry than most people when they find out that they fell for a hoax. I will be happy to hear the evidence from experts in the field. Hopefully, their results won't be as ridiculous as the "science fair" one. Sincerely, Esther S. ----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> To: ohallen@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 5:42:42 PM Subject: Re: [OHALLEN] Shaving Cream on Tombstones Dear Listers; I apologize if my posts seemed unnecessary. I am surprised that this discussion rose to the perceived level of anger that it did. I am taking the matter to other recognized persons in this field. Please forgive that I let it get out of hand before going off list. Jan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to OHALLEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> >>>As I said before "When in doubt, don't" As I said, I have worked with a stone conservator's company and they know shaving cream to be harmful because of scientific studies. Like the last scientific study you posted? The one that suggested a tombstone would completely disappear if covered in shaving cream for 8 hours? Is this the kind of "scientific study" to which you refer? >>>Cite your sources for us. That's curious, what's good for the gander is apparently too good for the goose. I didn't see you cite any of your sources, except the ridiculous one that suggested that a tombstone would dissolve in 8 hours if covered in shaving cream. You mention "scientific studies" (see above) but you don't include any citation. Why is that? If you are going to make pretense that these scientific investigations exist, then please cite them. Only this time, please don't bother citing those that are clearly impossible. Esther S.

----- Original Message ---- From: "TEXTIQUE@aol.com" <TEXTIQUE@aol.com> >>>If you do not believe the words of those who research the minute details of conservation then I suppose there is no way to convince you to study the other opinions. What are you talking about? You posted a study that suggests a tombstone would be completely dissolved in 8 hours if covered with shaving cream. Are these the "minute details of conservation" that I am supposed to take seriously? I am all far studying the other opinions, but what I am not for is believing the patently absurd just because some ostensible "authority" said it...especially when the things they are saying are demonstrably false or in clear error, and have already been demonstrated to be in clear error. Sorry, but a tombstone completely melting due to shaving cream in 8 hours is hardly the "research of minute details of conservation" that you would like to hold them up to be. >>>Call a stone conservator.....those who do study various chemical effects on stone if you do not believe other's research. I have called dozens. None of them have any evidence that shaving cream harms tombstones. And the reason they don't is because it is a hoax. >>>It is people like you who, in the name of stubbornness, ruin it for the future. Ruin what for the future? What am I ruining? What is the "it" to which you refer? The only thing I am ruining is the hoax that shaving cream harms tombstones. Esther S.