In a message dated 3/27/99 9:22:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, OCONNOR-D- [email protected] writes: << guess what I am thinking is that if you are looking for anO'Leary, for instance, and come across a Leary which fits into your search, you may want to follow thru with it. this is what took place with me in this one rectory and may or may not be a common practice anywhere else. >> This is very common.... that's why no one doing this research should ever get locked on to exact spelling.... so many Irish emigrants especially in the early to mid 1800s were uneducated peasants and couldn't read or write it was almost always ***the prerogative of the data taker*** to decide on spelling.... and if they were part of the British gov or establishment the more likely the names were anglicized not to sound so Irish. I wrote the following to another researcher recently, but I think it addresses your questions also... Note: In my Heffron family the same man listed in different records like this: Griffiths Valuation: Rupert Heffernan Parent:Robert Hefferon Parent: Hubert Heveran US Census Robert Hefron He never changed it, he couldnt read or write. Its the information takers that experimented phonetically with what they heard... the variation had more to do with the information taker and whether they spoke Irish and or English as my GG grandfather Heffron spoke Irish only. In the Griffiths Valuation which was the British Gov.... all my O'Connor relatives were listed as Connor... no one in our family ever referred to themselves that way... but there were no O' names in the part of Kerry I was researching because the Brits wanted to anglicanize the Irish and taking off the O was one way to do that besides forcing them to change thier language and their religion. But those very same people listed in the Griffiths were all O'Connor in the church records of births and marriages... at least the Priests were Irish and many spoke Gaelic so they were more likely, nota always to spell the name right. All in all these were all approximations of the Gaelic names were they were orignally from. I am not a professional but there are a few things I have learned about doing this research in Ireland 1) You CANNOT go by exact spellings 2) You CANNOT go by exact dates from various record sources 3) You need to be creative and flexible when deciphering the relevance of either! As far as your relative not knowing their birthrate or the spelling or their names or even where they came form...YES ITS MORE THAN POSSIBLE; IT HAPPENED A LOT.... especially if they were Catholic and from the western areas of Ireland.(see more about Penal Laws below) You must realize that many of the Irish who emigrated in the mid to late 1800s were uneducated peasants who could not read nor write and may have only spoken Gaelic. Think how hard it would be to remember a date if you never wrote it or saw it written or couldn't read a calendar... Note ... anyone who has researched census records will tell you about the variations in spelling and dates of info provided by people ... professionals will tell you not to go by the dates or ages given they could be off as much as 10 years (before and after). Bottom line... I would go by the date and months you have and not worry about the discrepancy in the years ... that is more likely where someone's memory is faulty, unless it was taken contemporaneously ... and remember there is always transcription errors from when it was originally transcribed to whoever copied the information <<This database also listed a Maurice McElligott being married to a Margaret Gallivan (not Galvin).>> this isn't necessarily a discrepancy probably just a variation on spelling <<The death certificate in my possesion from Boston, MA shows Ellen as being 77 in 1944 when she passed away, this then would indicate her date of birth as being 1867 but she had her first child in 1883-84 so was she 16/17???>> Death cert are the worst things to base a birth date by!!! ... The further you go from the original date the more likely the chance of error and especially with memory. When someone dies other people give the info (sons, husbands people not likely to be present at the original even of birth)! And they can be wrong or be going by misinformation themselves. For the same person's birthdate I had a range of 1820 by gravestone markers, 1823 by census dates and 1822 by obituary...is one more accurate than the other? None was taken from contemporary sources ... but the date my relative gave me when pouring over the birth records in Latin at the parish in Ireland said 1821... So which date do you go by?... 1821 ... its most likely to be accurate. Remember ... think of the source of the information ... who gave it? Who took it down? did the person giving it speak English or Gaelic? Did the information recorder speak English or Gaelic? Was the information recorded at the time or form someone's memory years later? did people lie about their ages? .. the further the time is from the original event the more chance of error.!!!!! If you are interested in the history of events as to why our ancestors were forced to lose their language and how so many were uneducated peasants or why they may not have been able to read or write or why they may have changed their names or their religions.... read a bit of this: "Penal Laws In 1695 harsh penal laws were enforced, known as the 'popery code': Catholics were forbidden from buying land, bringing their children up as Catholics, and from entering the forces or the law. All Irish culture, music and education was banned. The religion and culture were kept alive by secret open-air masses and illegal outdoor schools, known as 'hedge schools', but by 1778, Catholics owned barely 5% of the land. By the time of the census of 1841, only 5% of land ownership was in the hands of the native Irish and so the Irish were impoverished, landless and leaderless by the eve of the famine. "In the early years of the 18th century the ruling Protestants in Ireland passed a series of "Penal Laws" designed to strip the "backwards" Catholic population of remaining land, positions of influence and civil rights. Catholics could no longer practice law, run for elected office, purchase land, or own property (such as horses) valued at more than 5 pounds. By 1778 Irish Catholics would own a meager 5% of Irish land. Furthermore, the Catholic educational system was outlawed and priests who did not conform to the laws could be branded on the face or castrated. As a result, much of Catholic church services and education was forced underground, to operate only under extreme secrecy. Professor Lecky a British Protestant and ardent British sympathizer, said in his “History of Ireland in the 18th Century” that the object of the Penal Laws was threefold: “To deprive Catholics of all civil life; to reduce them to a condition of extreme, brutal ignorance; and, to disassociate them from the soil.” Lecky said, “He might with absolute justice, substitute Irish for Catholic,” and added a fourth objective: “To expatriate the race.” Most scholars agree that the Penal Laws helped set the stage for the injustices that occurred during The Great Famine and fueled the fires of racism that were directed against the Irish by the British. Lecky outlined the Penal Laws as follows: The Irish Catholic was forbidden the exercise of his religion. He was forbidden to receive education. He was forbidden to enter a profession. He was forbidden to hold public office. He was forbidden to engage in trade or commerce. He was forbidden to live in a corporate town or within five miles thereof. He was forbidden to own a horse of greater value than five pounds. He was forbidden to own land. He was forbidden to lease land. He was forbidden to accept a mortgage on land in security for a loan. He was forbidden to vote. He was forbidden to keep any arms for hisprotection. He was forbidden to hold a life annuity. He was forbidden to buy land from a Protestant. He was forbidden to receive a gift of land from a Protestant. He was forbidden to inherit land from a Protestant. He was forbidden to inherit anything from a Protestant. He was forbidden to rent any land that was worth more than 30 shillings a year. He was forbidden to reap from his land any profit exceeding a third oftherent. He could not be guardian to a child. He could not, when dying, leave his infant children under Catholic guardianship. He could not attend Catholic worship. He was compelled by law to attend Protestant worship. He could not himself educate his child. He could not send his child to a Catholic teacher. He could not employ a Catholic teacher to come to his child. He could not send his child abroad to receive education. " Surprise information from Waterlilys about our name! (Surprise to me anyway!) Dear O' researchers, I just found out something about our name that I wanted to share with you. Ready to be surprised? There are numerous misusages of Gaelic to English, the most pervasive of which is the apostrophe in the family names such as O'Connor! Get this: The Irish noun Ó (with an accent above) means descendant..... It has been and is confused with the contraction of the preposition "of ", as in jack o'lantern. Bottom line is, our names never should have had an apostrophe! --------------------------------- Lastly... a lot of the problems of Identifying your family that you mentioned I went thru myself... please read my search story... you might get some clues and hopefully some encouragement! http://members.aol.com/waterlilys/MySearch.html hope you find this helpful! slán, (thats Irish for good-bye) mary in orlando ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/waterlilys/index.html">A Dingle, County KerryIreland, Genealogy Helper</A> http://members.aol.com/waterlilys/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <A HREF="http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlker/index.html">Kerry</A> http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlker/index.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/waterlilys/Ancestors.html">O'CONNOR Ancestors </A> http://members.aol.com/waterlilys/Ancestors.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/7974/Ballyferriter"> Ballyferriter Genealogy</A> *by Wayne Mansfield* http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/7974/Ballyferriter ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SHARE YOUR STUFF! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ POST YOUR INFO ON THE MAILING LIST AND THE QUERY BOARD: <A HREF="http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Ireland/Kerry">Kerry Ireland Queries Message Index</A> http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Ireland/Kerry ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Send only the word subscribe in the body of an email to: [email protected] to join the Kerry List. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~