Below is a list of the message subjects posted on the Rensselaer County, NY message board during July 2008. The subjects are arranged with the most recent being at the top. Also listed are the number of replies since the thread began and the date of the most recent message in the thread. If you want to visit the message board, click on the link below. http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.rensselaer/mb.ashx Cliff Lamere ____________ Subject of Thread Replies Last Post DeMarest,Demaray 0 31 Jul 2008 Have 1888 Directory Troy, Lansingburgh, W. Troy, Green I., Cohoes & Waterford - will do look ups 41 30 Jul 2008 Sarah (Unknown maiden) Hicks b. 10/28/1833 0 26 Jul 2008 Obit of Edward Waugh 26 25 Jul 2008 Have St. Mary's burial records, Troy NY 29 23 Jul 2008 Nathaniel and Issachar Robinson - Scaghticoke, Rensselaer Co. NY 6 18 Jul 2008 Will of lake's namesake: "HONEST" JOHN BABCOCK of GRAFTON 3 18 Jul 2008 Name change info? Van or VanBuskirk 0 14 Jul 2008 Francis or François Dufresne born Johnsonville New York 0 13 Jul 2008 George Russell in W Hoosick NY 1900-20 0 10 Jul 2008 Malachi O'Shaughnessy, Ellen Brodie 1 8 Jul 2008 Anita Whelan Daugthter of William Whelan 0 8 Jul 2008 George A. Heustis 2 7 Jul 2008 Edward Sulley in Lansingburg 4 7 Jul 2008 Henry L. Wagar Ancestry - Rensselaer County, NY - info please 0 6 Jul 2008 Lodowick Wagar, Rensselaer County NY - requesting information on 0 6 Jul 2008 Stearns - Ottosen connection - New York 0 6 Jul 2008

Is there anyone out there searching Lawrence Guinan and wife Bridget Frey? They res. in Troy. Dau. Mary Agnes b. 1871 in Troy, married John McGough in Troy 1908. They both died in San Francisco. Son Owen died in California in 2003, but I have not proven the place of his death. Deanna

In my opinion, 12 marker matches are not worth even checking. I personally think anyone testing should go for a minimum of 37 markers and if finances allow for the full 67. Yes, at 12 markers most people (but not all) will match many different surnames. Last names were only being taken about 600 yrs. ago and these people who show up as 12 marker matches do share a common ancestor with you in or before that time frame. On your member page, you can click that you only want to be identified when there is a surname match or at which levels you want to be notified. Of course, if you check that you only want to be compared within your surname project, if somewhere in the past generations some one in your family was adopted or had a child outside of marriage, you could miss an important match. What if you came up with 65/67 with someone with a different surname? That would mean there was a common ancestor not too far back in time, and you would want to correspond with that participant! If you match someone 37/37, you have a common ancestor within a much closer time frame. There are many test results variations that one could get and each would be looked at separately. A Y-12 DNA test will mainly just predict your haplogroup. At Family Tree DNA, it does not cost $200 to test 12 markers in a surname project. When joining a project, it is $99 for Y-12 markers, $148 for Y-25, $189 for Y-37 and $269 for Y-67. The fact that you aren't matching someone with your last name is because no one else from your particular group has tested with Family Tree DNA yet. The database is growing at a very fast rate. For example, I started the Henry Surname DNA Project with one man. We now have 116 participants. We have people from several haplogroups. Unexpected matches are coming in frequently now. Also there is no guarantee that anyone will ever have a significant match. Mr. Greenspan the owner and originator of familytreedna had never had a significant match as of a few years ago. He may have found once since I talked to him. I didn't get to go to the yearly conference last year. Also he and others who work at familytreedna, are very easy to contact. They answer questions that arise and are very nice people! When attending the yearly conferences, one gets to meet the scientists and others who work there. At our project pages, we post (with permission) the proven ancestry of each participant as verified by traditional records of census, land records, will, tax lists, etc. Along with the DNA, we are sorting all the Henrys into different groups. Almost all Henrys coming out of the South believed (and had been told by their families) that they were descended from an uncle, grandfather or some male relative of Patrick Henry. This has proven almost entirely false for all. We have the DNA of a descendant of Patrick Henry (The participant has been verified through the organization of descendants at Red Hill VA). The closest Henry match to the descendant of Patrick Henry still does not have a very strong match but he does at least share a common ancestor back in time: 4 generations is .03% 8 generations is 1.39% 12 generations is 8.98% 16 generations is 25.32% 20 generations is 46.25% 24 generations is 65.68% DNA testing can disprove easier than it can prove one's relationship. For example, if one is Haplogroup R (R1a, R1b, etc.) and another person in the surname is haplogroup J (J2, etc.), then there is zero percent chance of having a common ancestor in 600 yrs., regardless of what grandma or any printed genealogy said. Extensive family research combined with Y-DNA testing results is an awesome way to sort one's family. If the results don't mesh, it will be the paper trail and/or legend that is wrong! Once a family locates others who have a common ancestor, the researchers can start to work together and can rule out families that don't match. It helps one tailor one's research to be more effective. Like you, Cliff, I was a school teacher. I taught school for 30 yrs. and I personally have seen the value of Y-DNA testing! I started this project with one Henry man. Thank goodness, I have a wonderful Co-administrator Judy Henry who does the website, is a great researcher, and keeps me in line! But you must also realize that I have done genealogical research intensively since 1977, and Judy has done remarkable research for years also. She has published a great book on her husband's Henry family. You can look at our Henry project to see how we have helped many Henry men find, share, or verify their roots using paper traditional research and Y-DNA results, Each tab is clickable and on the lineage page each separate group is clickable: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~henrydna/ It is very likely that your relatives who want you to test, have done a lot of traditional research and need your results to see if their theories are correct! Doris Noland Parton ----- Original Message ----- From: Judy Lock To: Doris Noland Parton Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:32 PM Subject: Fw: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? Want to respond about Patrick Henry and the many claimants that think they are related? I'm not knowledgeable enough, but you are! ----- Original Message ----- From: Cliff Lamere To: NYRENSSE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 5:11 PM Subject: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? I have long been skeptical about the benefits of having a DNA test done for myself. Few genealogists understand much about DNA testing. I taught science for 27 years, but I could not understand how a DNA test would help me with my family tree. I read the websites of many testing companies, but their claims were vague and never mentioned that they would help me identify whether or not I had correctly chosen my 4th greatgrandfather. I phoned Family Tree DNA, but the owner could not assure me that the test could find any ancestors for me. I decided that I would be wasting my money. Later, a genealogy friend brought up the subject after he had participated in a DNA surname study with the same company. After the test was completed, he wrote to me saying the following. "I Hope you haven't been tempted to get one of those DNA tests to show your ancestoral matches. One of my old [surname deleted] correspondents did so. They paid $200 for it and had me send in saliva samples for comparative analysis. Not one person of my surname turned up as a match. My genes and theirs show up in every country in the world! It appears all of the matches are prehistoric. They keep sending readouts of "new" data with a handful of surnames but still no family matches. It may be scientific but I believe they're guilty of deception." Take a look at the results of the surname study in which my friend participated. ------------------ "An exact 12 marker match has been found between you and another person in the Family Tree DNA database. You and the other person match in all 12 loci. If you share the same surname or variant, this means that there is a 99% likelihood that you share a common ancestor in a genealogical time frame. If you match another person without the same surname or variant, you still probably share a common ancestor, but this ancestor most likely lived in the time before surnames were adopted. The link below will take you to your Family Tree DNA Login. From there, click on the "Y-DNA Matches" tab to see a list of your matches. Newer matches will be at the top of the list. Additional emails will be sent to you as we find new matches between you and your "genetic cousins."" ------------------ That is apparently what you get for your money. Everyone on this mailing list is probably related. Any two of us are probably "genetic cousins" because we are both related to some unnamed person born in Europe a thousand or ten thousand years ago or to someone in prehistoric times. If you and I both took the test, we might learn that. Is it worth spending money to find that out? The Times Union, Albany's newspaper had an article today ("Relative Connections") that described the experience of one person who learned about the ancient migration route of some unnamed person. He also quoted someone who said that the mtDNA test detects only one of thousands of ancestors. Since it tests the female line, and surnames change with every marriage, it can't tell you a surname. If I understand correctly, the test will not help you add anyone to your family tree. The article will be online for seven days before you have to pay to read it. http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=703086&category=LIFE&newsdate=7/14/2008 If you have had some experience with the DNA testing, please tell us if it helped you identify any relatives or not. Cliff Lamere

Hi Cliff, There is a national DNA database at dna.ancestry.com There are also many family oriented websites. There are 45 Hayes members on http://hayesdna.hayesclan.com/labchart.htm Richard

Thank you very much to the many people who responded to my recent inquiry about the usefulness of DNA testing for finding ancestors. Several said that the more people being tested, the more likely you were to get some useful results. I know the results go into a database, but is it a national database or does each company have their own separate database? A national database would allow comparison with lots of other people. If each company keeps their own database, that would mean fewer test results get entered into it, and much less likelihood of finding a match. It would also mean that it would be important to pick a company with about the largest database you could find, or one that has tested a lot of people of the surname that interests you. If the databases are separate, can you surf them to determine how many people of your own surname are part of it? Cliff

Thank you to the many people who responded to my recent inquiry about the usefulness of DNA testing for finding ancestors. Several said that the more people being tested, the more likely you were to get some useful results. I know the results go into a database, but is it a national database or does each company have their own separate database? A national database would allow comparison with lots of other people. If each company keeps their own database, that would mean fewer test results get entered into it, and much less likelihood of finding a match. It would also mean that it would be important to pick a company with about the largest database you could find, or one that has tested a lot of people of the surname that interests you. If the databases are separate, can you surf them to determine how many people of your own surname are part of it? Cliff

Jeff Scism wrote: > > To see some results check out my CROWLEY Dna results page at > http://ibssg.org/crowley/ (the results are the lower part of the page) > The first chart are those in the project, and the second chart are the > matches from Ysearch. (The Color coding was added by myself to make > comparing easier) > > Jeff > Justa note, there are finally enough participants in the above project to see results, as you look at the charts you will see where several people are lining up and matching, those with teh most similarities in the "pattern" are encouraged to compare traditional genealogies and make the connections. These patterns come down ONLY from father to son in YDna tests. so follow that single genealogical line ONLY. If someone with a similar pattern doesn't have the right surname, MUCH more research is needed to see if there is a non-paternal event that can be found. Usually a dissimilar surname eliminates that match. Jeff

Cliff Lamere wrote: > Thank you to the many people who responded to my recent inquiry about > the usefulness of DNA testing for finding ancestors. Several said that > the more people being tested, the more likely you were to get some > useful results. I know the results go into a database, but is it a > national database or does each company have their own separate database? > FTDNA has an INTERCOMPANY database called Ysearch (http://www.ysearch.org/) where you can enter your results from any company's testing program, it is global and searchable. If you area FTDNA customer your results can be automatically updated there by the push on a link on your personal results page. To see some results check out my CROWLEY Dna results page at http://ibssg.org/crowley/ (the results are the lower part of the page) The first chart are those in the project, and the second chart are the matches from Ysearch. (The Color coding was added by myself to make comparing easier) Jeff > A national database would allow comparison with lots of other people. > If each company keeps their own database, that would mean fewer test > results get entered into it, and much less likelihood of finding a > match. It would also mean that it would be important to pick a company > with about the largest database you could find, or one that has tested a > lot of people of the surname that interests you. > > If the databases are separate, can you surf them to determine how many > people of your own surname are part of it? > > Cliff > > > > ====NY-RENSSE Mailing List==== > Check out the mailing list's website at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYRensse/ > Don't forget the Rensselaer County Message Board: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.rensselaer/mb.ashx > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NYRENSSE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.4.11/1553 - Release Date: 7/15/2008 5:48 AM > > > > -- Jeffery G. Scism, IBSSG ~~ Visit http://ibssg.org/blacksheep/ For the Intl. Blacksheep Society of Genealogists website Putnam County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inputnam/ Montgomery County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/inmontgomery/bios/ Fountain County Indiana http://ingenweb.org/infountain/ "The experiment was terminated prematurely when the environmental events degraded significantly at the reference point where the biologically processed post-nutritional solid waste product was inertially motivated to an interface with the helically driven centrifugally impelled aerodynamic flow oscillator, initiating a change in velocity and vector state, with the exhibition of chaotic dispersion of particulate matter over a radial pattern representing the parameter of effect dictated by the hyperbolic trajectory of the product intermix, as modified by the gravitational field, the calculated velocity of preexisting aerodynamic current, and centrifugal forces, terminating in an energy state exchange, and which process created environmental compromise, voiding the integrity of the experiment."

Seeking living descendants of William James Dugan, Civil War Veteran William James Dugan (probably used James more often) b. 10 Nov. 1845 d. 5 Apr. 1897 Mattewan State Hospital bur. St. Patrick's Cem., Watervliet, Albany Co., NY m. 12 Apr. 1885 St. Marks, Green Island, Albany Co. to Mary Ann Meehan, dau. of Charles and Ellen Meehan b. 19 Mar. 1862 issue: Elizabeth Mary 12 Oct. 885 St. Patrick's Watervliet Charles James b. 1 May 1887 ibid Johanna (Jane) Ellen 25 April 1889 ibid Agnes Josephine 10 Sept. 1891 ibid This data is in James Dugan's Civil War Pension File. Deanna Smith

The DNA Testing has answered several questions in my research (37 marker)as well as presented some new questions. We were able to finally determine if one line (4 generations back) was a blood line or the children of a different father. Different branches in this family had used 2 different surname's, never quite sure of who the father was. The DNA Testing confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt at a 37 marker test that they were of my blood line. I rarely pay attention to 12 marker tests because you'll have 100's of matches, but 24, 37 and 67 markers are invaluble and in my experience I would recommend nothing short of the 37 or 67 marker. Of course in one line it's posed a question of why? Concerning the differnces in the DNA as opposed to cousins further removed, still working on that one!

All maybe we should also say check the surnames of the various YDNA tests already done. That you can do. If you find your surname there then you may want to be more excited about more data. The more lines tested the more data can be located. Also if you join a group it is less than starting on your own. I also think you can contact some of those people if they have said it was okay. So check the FTdna web page for surnames see if anyone has started a study group or not. I am not sure how the other study groups work only FTdna which I am satisfied with. Susi ************** Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

Cliff: In my opinion, your conclusions are wrong. A Y-DNA test can only verify or deny your genealogical research and then only if there are enough people in your family tree that have tested at least 37 markers and preferably 67. Yes, it costs money, but what in life is free. Several years ago, I established a Bentley Family Project with the idea of confirming the relationships of several men I had either met while doing genealogical research or who I corresponded with through forums and message boards. The purpose was to determine if we had a common ancestor in William Bentley of Ampthill, England who came to America in 1671. To date our original group of four has grown to 40 members and has determined several distinct, unrelated Bentley family lines. Those who descend from William have a very unique Haplogroup, G2a3b1, which none of the others have. This was discovered as SNP mutation U13+ during a study by Dr. Garvey at Gonzaga University in which I participated as a representative of the descendants of William. Because of this we are able pinpoint our English roots and based on Spencer Welles study and the National Geographic study, can determine that our origins are in central Asia. Until someone discovers a group of U13+ persons living somewhere in Asia, our roots will remain unknown. I believe that most of us are more interested in more recent history which can be determined from research. Y-DNA is the only scientific way to confirm this research and as some responders to your posting have stated, one indiscretion can break the continuity of the pedigree. I encourage all genealogical researchers to join a family group participating in Y-DNA testing to broaden the pool of knowledge about their family history. Larry Bentley

Your message went through on Tuesday, July 15th. There was no "censorship." See below: From: "littlemoon" <littlemoon@tampabay.rr.com> Subject: Re: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2008 00:32:18 -0400 References: <487BCF0B.6030704@nycap.rr.com><003301c8e61b $df2330b0$9d699210$@net> In-Reply-To: <003301c8e61b$df2330b0$9d699210$@net> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradford Miter" <bradmiter@earthlink.net> To: <nyrensse@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? > Cliff, > > I must say I agree that if you are just wanting to match to the world it > is > largely a waste of money, especially at the 12 marker level. > > I got involved in testing when trying to see if I matched up to the St. > Kew, > Cornwall Miter clan. I paid for test for myself and a male descendent > from > St. Kew and we failed to have a single match in the 12 marker test. > What's > more, his historic roots went back to Asia Minor and mine were purely > Western Europe and the UK. > > Of course, as my 'pseudo cousin' pointed out, it only takes one female in > the line to 'step out of the house' and it messes up the lineage! EXCUSE ME???? it takes a MAN to "mess up the lineage"... no woman got pregnant on her own buddy... > On Jul 15, 2008, at 5:53 PM, littlemoon wrote: > I see censorship is alive and WELL as my response to this was > prevented from > reaching this board... interesting that a MAN was allowed to insult > women at > large, but the response contesting such was deleted from public > view.... by > a woman NO LESS.... > > Pat you should really be ASHAMED to allow a male insult to be > included in > this forum and any female response to it be censored.... > > this is disgraceful...ABSOLUTELY disgraceful!!!! >

I have been reading these DNA comments with great interest! Thanks for everyone's participation. I have considered having some tests done to hopefully break down a brick wall. I have 3 male cousins (1 that I know is of my direct line, the other 2 not so sure) that I hope to convince to have some DNA testing done to see if we can find a common ancestor. We know the grandparents of all three, but would like to determine if my gr.grandfather is of the same line as theirs. I suspect it is, but cannot prove anything and would hope that perhaps the test might do that. Is one test better (markers) than another for this type of analysis? Has anyone had any success in this limited look back? Shirley Dilsworth Grand Blanc MI In a message dated 7/15/2008 5:53:54 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, Patrick20@comcast.net writes: Cliff I think DNA testing has great value, and you are correct in stating that the Companies offering these tests do some marketing. They have to. Has it found me an ancestor, no, but it has told me who I am not related to. When a person is searching for their ancestors, they tend to form strong opinions and ideas as to whom they might be related to, or where that brickwall probably came from. Even when they are told by others that it might be this other person or IS this other person, I have seen researchers refuse to accept it! Their idea or opinion is where they devote their entire search. Did, I find an ancestor using DNA, NO, but what I did find out, is that I am not related to two different and major names in early colonial history, Isaac Cummings of Ipswich, and John Cummings of Woburn. Both of these individuals have extensive written genealogical history, proven both through records, and DNA connecting to thousands and thousands of individuals. I also discovered that I was related to several others who had traced their lines to 1790's New York, and lost the trail. Had the DNA testing results came years earlier, they might have helped, but I already had discovered the trail. What DNA did for me though, was to validate the direction I had been taking.. It also helped me in the future, as at anytime that I found I might be looking at a descendant of either of these individuals as a relative, I dropped the research immediately. The elimination and inclusion process is greatly enhanced with DNA. You might want to revist the process, as just the fact that your friend did not match anyone with your surname is actually a boon to him, and a definitive genealogical answer. He can now eliminate their lines as possible connecting ancestors, and if possible obtain copies of these other individual proven trees and histories which he can then use as points not to search. The other thing that comes to mind is the accuracy of the trees that some individuals turn in on the DNA test. I helped with a tree that under scrutiny fell apart in the 4th generation. The person was not related to anyone in the area of DNA in which he had submitted his name. Why, there had been just enough of a name misspelling occurance to make a major difference in the name researched. There are just to many good reasons for it, especially in the ealier periods where records are scarce. I could go on and on. There is one negative! The Expense! You just have to grit your teeth and choke the bill down, knowing that good things are on the way. Patrick Cummings ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cliff Lamere" <clifflamere@nycap.rr.com> To: <NYRENSSE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:11 PM Subject: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? >I have long been skeptical about the benefits of having a DNA test done > for myself. > > Few genealogists understand much about DNA testing. I taught science for > 27 years, but I could not understand how a DNA test would help me with > my family tree. I read the websites of many testing companies, but their > claims were vague and never mentioned that they would help me identify > whether or not I had correctly chosen my 4th greatgrandfather. I phoned > Family Tree DNA, but the owner could not assure me that the test could > find any ancestors for me. > > I decided that I would be wasting my money. Later, a genealogy friend > brought up the subject after he had participated in a DNA surname study > with the same company. After the test was completed, he wrote to me > saying the following. > > "I Hope you haven't been tempted to get one of those DNA tests to show > your ancestoral matches. One of my old [surname deleted] correspondents > did so. They paid $200 for it and had me send in saliva samples for > comparative analysis. Not one person of my surname turned up as a match. > My genes and theirs show up in every country in the world! It appears > all of the matches are prehistoric. They keep sending readouts of "new" > data with a handful of surnames but still no family matches. It may be > scientific but I believe they're guilty of deception." > > Take a look at the results of the surname study in which my friend > participated. > > ------------------ > > "An exact 12 marker match has been found between you and another person > in the Family Tree DNA database. > > You and the other person match in all 12 loci. If you share the same > surname or variant, this means that there is a 99% likelihood that you > share a common ancestor in a genealogical time frame. If you match > another person without the same surname or variant, you still probably > share a common ancestor, but this ancestor most likely lived in the time > before surnames were adopted. > > The link below will take you to your Family Tree DNA Login. From there, > click on the "Y-DNA Matches" tab to see a list of your matches. Newer > matches will be at the top of the list. Additional emails will be sent > to you as we find new matches between you and your "genetic cousins."" > > ------------------ > > That is apparently what you get for your money. Everyone on this mailing > list is probably related. Any two of us are probably "genetic cousins" > because we are both related to some unnamed person born in Europe a > thousand or ten thousand years ago or to someone in prehistoric times. > If you and I both took the test, we might learn that. Is it worth > spending money to find that out? > > The Times Union, Albany's newspaper had an article today ("Relative > Connections") that described the experience of one person who learned > about the ancient migration route of some unnamed person. He also quoted > someone who said that the mtDNA test detects only one of thousands of > ancestors. Since it tests the female line, and surnames change with > every marriage, it can't tell you a surname. If I understand correctly, > the test will not help you add anyone to your family tree. The article > will be online for seven days before you have to pay to read it. > > http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=703086&category=LIFE&newsdate=7/14/2008 > > If you have had some experience with the DNA testing, please tell us if > it helped you identify any relatives or not. > > Cliff Lamere > > > ====NY-RENSSE Mailing List==== > Check out the mailing list's website at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYRensse/ > Don't forget the Rensselaer County Message Board: > http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.rensselaer/mb.ashx > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NYRENSSE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====NY-RENSSE Mailing List==== Check out the mailing list's website at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYRensse/ Don't forget the Rensselaer County Message Board: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.rensselaer/mb.ashx ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NYRENSSE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

I am not sure what you are referring to here: > I see censorship is alive and WELL as my response to this was prevented from > reaching this board... The only messages that I reject are those that are too large, and I am surprised I let this one go through. Messages should be trimmed to leave only pertinent info from the repeated message and then all the signatures at the bottom of the message should be removed. Please write me off the list to discuss this, it is not list worthy of discussion. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA, list admin http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

I see censorship is alive and WELL as my response to this was prevented from reaching this board... interesting that a MAN was allowed to insult women at large, but the response contesting such was deleted from public view.... by a woman NO LESS.... Pat you should really be ASHAMED to allow a male insult to be included in this forum and any female response to it be censored.... this is disgraceful...ABSOLUTELY disgraceful!!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradford Miter" <bradmiter@earthlink.net> To: <nyrensse@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? > Cliff, > > I must say I agree that if you are just wanting to match to the world it > is > largely a waste of money, especially at the 12 marker level. > > I got involved in testing when trying to see if I matched up to the St. > Kew, > Cornwall Miter clan. I paid for test for myself and a male descendent > from > St. Kew and we failed to have a single match in the 12 marker test. > What's > more, his historic roots went back to Asia Minor and mine were purely > Western Europe and the UK. > > Of course, as my 'pseudo cousin' pointed out, it only takes one female in > the line to 'step out of the house' and it messes up the lineage! > > I have had a couple of 12 marker matches with folks that I couldn't > possibly > match up to in recorded history. > > Brad Miter > > -----Original Message----- > From: nyrensse-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nyrensse-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Cliff Lamere > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 6:11 PM > To: NYRENSSE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? > > I have long been skeptical about the benefits of having a DNA test done > for myself. > > Few genealogists understand much about DNA testing. I taught science for > 27 years, but I could not understand how a DNA test would help me with > my family tree. I read the websites of many testing companies, but their > claims were vague and never mentioned that they would help me identify > whether or not I had correctly chosen my 4th greatgrandfather. I phoned > Family Tree DNA, but the owner could not assure me that the test could > find any ancestors for me. > > I decided that I would be wasting my money. Later, a genealogy friend > brought up the subject after he had participated in a DNA surname study > with the same company. After the test was completed, he wrote to me > saying the following. > > "I Hope you haven't been tempted to get one of those DNA tests to show > your ancestoral matches. One of my old [surname deleted] correspondents > did so. They paid $200 for it and had me send in saliva samples for > comparative analysis. Not one person of my surname turned up as a match. > My genes and theirs show up in every country in the world! It appears > all of the matches are prehistoric. They keep sending readouts of "new" > data with a handful of surnames but still no family matches. It may be > scientific but I believe they're guilty of deception." > > Take a look at the results of the surname study in which my friend > participated. > > ------------------ > > "An exact 12 marker match has been found between you and another person > in the Family Tree DNA database. > > You and the other person match in all 12 loci. If you share the same > surname or variant, this means that there is a 99% likelihood that you > share a common ancestor in a genealogical time frame. If you match > another person without the same surname or variant, you still probably > share a common ancestor, but this ancestor most likely lived in the time > before surnames were adopted. > > The link below will take you to your Family Tree DNA Login. From there, > click on the "Y-DNA Matches" tab to see a list of your matches. Newer > matches will be at the top of the list. Additional emails will be sent > to you as we find new matches between you and your "genetic cousins."" > > ------------------ > > That is apparently what you get for your money. Everyone on this mailing > list is probably related. Any two of us are probably "genetic cousins" > because we are both related to some unnamed person born in Europe a > thousand or ten thousand years ago or to someone in prehistoric times. > If you and I both took the test, we might learn that. Is it worth > spending money to find that out? > > The Times Union, Albany's newspaper had an article today ("Relative > Connections") that described the experience of one person who learned > about the ancient migration route of some unnamed person. He also quoted > someone who said that the mtDNA test detects only one of thousands of > ancestors. Since it tests the female line, and surnames change with > every marriage, it can't tell you a surname. If I understand correctly, > the test will not help you add anyone to your family tree. The article > will be online for seven days before you have to pay to read it. > > http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=703086&category=LIFE&news > date=7/14/2008 > > If you have had some experience with the DNA testing, please tell us if > it helped you identify any relatives or not. > > Cliff Lamere > > > ====NY-RENSSE Mailing List==== > Check out the mailing list's website at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYRensse/ > Don't forget the Rensselaer County Message Board: > http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.re > nsselaer/mb.ashx > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NYRENSSE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > ====NY-RENSSE Mailing List==== > Check out the mailing list's website at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYRensse/ > Don't forget the Rensselaer County Message Board: > http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states.newyork.counties.rensselaer/mb.ashx > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NYRENSSE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Cliff, for opening this subject to discussion. Generally, I agree with you. There WAS one important result that DNA testing showed for us. But when I tried to pin down specifics, I got nowhere. The thing that the DNA testing DID show is that a genealogy written in 1902 had attached an eldest "son" to a 1708 immigrant family who was NOT a son of that family. I had suspected this (long story, irrelevant), but I had no proof. Those who believed that this eldest "son" WAS a son also had no proof, but that did not matter. Their ancestors were in this unsourced 1902 book, so they were "OK"; mine were not, so I was an "orphan". So, I paid to have a distant cousin whom I had never heard of but who was a documented descendant of my ancestor take a 12-marker test. The DNA results showed that participants descended from the eldest "son" in the book were significantly more closely related to my cousin than they were to participants descended from the other six sons of the book. Meanwhile, DNA participants descended from the other six sons were significantly more closely related to each other than they were to participants descended from the eldest "son". In deliberating as to whether I should pay to have more testing done on this line, I tried to pin down the DNA testing people about what the results mean. I was UNABLE to. So I gave it a miss. The suggestion is that 12 markers is not enough, 24 markers is better but is still not enough etc. But even if we did 144 markers or 1,728 markers or 20,736 markers or whatever, it still would not be enough for the DNA people to conclude a specific such as "These two participants are linked by a common great-great-great-great-great-grandfather." My hunch is that DNA testing IS capable of adding more value to genealogical research than it is adding at the present time. My conclusion would be, "Watch this space!" Lin Van Buren London, England Lin VAN BUREN Co-ordinator, Rensselaer County, NY GenWeb veeb.veeb@virgin.net http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nyrensse/

Cliff and all, YES the YDNA we did for our family proved a match. Not recent but back to 1760's. We also did a larger than 12 marker test. It proved my research was same as what one of my distant cousins had done. No it does not always work, for up close and personal kin. I am looking now of doing a special one with some cousins on one name. WE have a very unusual YDNA in that line and am curious how it will read out. If we do this it will be late fall. I will be glad to share what I have learned. I also had surprise surprise MTDNA match happen with a total stranger that had posted their tree on the system we share the same Ancestor Mary Ann Lee in Virginia.That about blue my socks off. Then I had to learn how I was related to this person. They are from a sibling of my direct line, which I knew nothing about. It is no guarantee you will find kin but then sometiimes surprises happen, They will tell you unless you do a large marker test seldom do you get more than 5,000 to 10,000 years ago data. I did the one on a 28 marker. I am wanting to know if two brothers do YDNA will they show up as match. I think that is what people are looking for. I also think you have to make sure you use a reliable company not that they probably all are. I do use Ftdna and my Sweet cousin used them and found a match also. Susi ************** Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112)

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bradford Miter" <bradmiter@earthlink.net> To: <nyrensse@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: Re: [NYRENSSE] Is DNA testing worthwhile? > Cliff, > > I must say I agree that if you are just wanting to match to the world it > is > largely a waste of money, especially at the 12 marker level. > > I got involved in testing when trying to see if I matched up to the St. > Kew, > Cornwall Miter clan. I paid for test for myself and a male descendent > from > St. Kew and we failed to have a single match in the 12 marker test. > What's > more, his historic roots went back to Asia Minor and mine were purely > Western Europe and the UK. > > Of course, as my 'pseudo cousin' pointed out, it only takes one female in > the line to 'step out of the house' and it messes up the lineage! EXCUSE ME???? it takes a MAN to "mess up the lineage"... no woman got pregnant on her own buddy... >

My point exactly! Our MAXWELL DNA results would be very difficult to interpret if we hadn't done extensive research otherwise. But since we'd done the research, the reenforcing DNA results were gratifying. One of our testers thought he was related -- heresay said so -- and one peculiar forename in our family was in his family, too. But he had one "missing generation," so he couldn't connect to us. His DNA results closed the gap. Mary At 11:52 PM 7/14/2008, Lin Van Buren wrote: >...The suggestion is that 12 markers is not enough, 24 markers is >better but is >still not enough etc. But even if we did 144 markers or 1,728 markers or >20,736 markers or whatever, it still would not be enough for the DNA people >to conclude a specific such as "These two participants are linked by a >common great-great-great-great-great-grandfather." > >My hunch is that DNA testing IS capable of adding more value to genealogical >research than it is adding at the present time....