In a message dated 8/10/2004 5:37:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cbeck@ll.net writes: This guy was b. ca l800, and he had a son named John Turner Butman who m. Orsina Grant. On John Turner Butman's death certificate it says that his father was Alexander Butman. John was b. in l825 in Otsego, but so far, I CANNOT find Alexander. I am guessing that the name was misspelled in the censuses or something! He is not in any NY census spelled BUTMAN. ----------------- Here are a few ideas: 1. Substitute each of the other vowels for the U in BUTMAN. 2. Substitute each of the other vowels for the A in ALEXANDER. 3. Look for someone with A as a middle initial -- in case ALEXANDER was a middle name. 4. Consider the possibility that he didn't make it into the index you are using. Try an index by a different publisher. 5. Check the entire state of NY -- he may have been in a different county. 6. If none of those things work, consider the possibility that he was somehow missed by the US census taker in that year. Try other years and try the NY State census also. 7. Try land and tax records. 8. If you do all of this and he still doesn't turn up, it could be the father's name wasn't Alexander -- the person who gave the information on the death certificate may have been in error. Start looking for a father of a different name. I hope something here will help. Sue Susan M. Roe Seal Beach, CA SueMHR@aol.com If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may live in peace. Thomas Paine