Hi Cliff I am sure that many people might try to sue under this copyright bill. But it probably will not go very far if they are referring to any public records or dates. These public records are excluded under copyright law. You can only protect your format (if original), presentation and of course it does refer to data base formats that many use from family tree or another commercial type not being included. If you go to the exclusions under this Bill you will note that it excludes public records, other laws in effect and does not actually change any of the former existing Copyright Laws on Vital Records. There are many limitations here. NOTE: Below. Regards Pat R The proposed Law States this: RELATION TO OTHER LAWS. (a) OTHER RIGHTS NOT AFFECTED-(1) IN GENERAL- Subject to subsection (b), nothing in this Act shall affect rights, limitations, or remedies concerning copyright, patent, trademark, design rights, antitrust, trade secrets, privacy, access to public documents, and misuse.(2) RIGHT OF CONTRACT- Notwithstanding subsection (b), nothing in this Act shall affect rights, limitations, or remedies concerning the common law right of contract.

Hi Marilyn, No, it isn't just for NY. And as you can see its a VERY touchy subject. Basically what it comes down to, is that information written by someone is considered their copyright. Information that you find on the web and elsewhere is copyright. You can't copy someone's material and repost it anywhere, in the same form as you took it. Information that is public knowledge, like birth dates, death dates, census material etc, is public knowledge, you can take this information and put it in your own words and forms and you don't violate a copyright. But if you copy this information word for word then you violate a copyright. However, there are many variations to this rule, such as a book that has been written, you can post that material after so many years. The amount of years depends on several things, could be so many years after the authors death, or so many years since the copyright was renewed (this mostly pertains to words like Avon), or so many years after the book, etc was written. This is just a loose generalization of copyright law. If you are concerned about copyrights, its best to hire a lawyer, because there are so many aspects and interpretations of copyright law. Another example is this message, I could consider anyone copying this verbatim as copyright infringement, but in all reality it wouldn't hold up in a court of law. Hope this helps some, Rene' -------Original Message------- From: NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com Date: 03/19/04 09:25:32 To: NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NYOTSEGO] The facts of the new copyright bill. Hi Elaine, I am not up to speed on what is going on with this new copyright law, does this effect only N.Y.? Thanks! marilyn ElaineDecker@cs.com wrote: >In a message dated 3/18/04 10:42:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, &gt;cliff.hayes@earthlink.net writes: > ><< If you really want to see the proposed legislation, you can view it by >going to > http://thomas.loc.gov/ and in the place to type in the bill you are >interested in, put "HR3261", then click on search. >> > >Read what is really said about the bill in the halls of Congress: > >http://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat092303.html > > ==== NYOTSEGO Mailing List ==== To unsubscribe from this list in list mode send an email with the word, unsubscribe,in the subject field & body of the message to the following address: NYOtsego-l-request@rootsweb.com ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Hi Elaine, I am not up to speed on what is going on with this new copyright law, does this effect only N.Y.? Thanks! marilyn ElaineDecker@cs.com wrote: >In a message dated 3/18/04 10:42:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, >cliff.hayes@earthlink.net writes: > ><< If you really want to see the proposed legislation, you can view it by >going to > http://thomas.loc.gov/ and in the place to type in the bill you are >interested in, put "HR3261", then click on search. >> > >Read what is really said about the bill in the halls of Congress: > >http://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat092303.html > >

In a message dated 3/18/04 10:42:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, cliff.hayes@earthlink.net writes: << If you really want to see the proposed legislation, you can view it by going to http://thomas.loc.gov/ and in the place to type in the bill you are interested in, put "HR3261", then click on search. >> Read what is really said about the bill in the halls of Congress: http://www.copyright.gov/docs/regstat092303.html ...which includes-- "Accordingly, the Register recommended the restoration of the general level of protection provided in the past under copyright “sweat of the brow” theories, but under a suitable constitutional power, with flexibility built in for uses in the public interest in a manner similar to the function played by fair use in copyright law. Such balanced legislation could optimize the availability of reliable information to the public. I stress --- "Such balanced legislation could optimize the availability of reliable information to the public." --- "In the intervening years, nothing has occurred to change the views of the Copyright Office. We continue to believe that balanced legislation should be enacted that would provide appropriate levels of protection for producers of databases, without unnecessarily impeding the free flow of knowledge and information." - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Kathleen ~ You are so right. I, being a somewhat trusting person, shared a huge portion of my database (abt 1,000), to a cousin I found I was remotely related to. This person knew I was planning on publishing a book with the material I shared with them, as I emphasized that fact with them....I later found, they apparently didn't care. I guess I wasn't moving fast enough for them .. They did however promise me it would be used for their own personal use and research..and it wasn't. The next thing I realized, I was browsing through Ancestry.com. one day and here was my data plastered all over on their data base at World Connect. I was livid.. The owner of the data base did mention my name, but barely. The real point is...if I would have wanted it plastered all over the Internet, I could have done it myself. I felt it was my choice whether or not I would submit it to a Genealogy site some day for others, not theirs.. Now the damage is done, it's all out there and my book is not published yet. Or as you say Kathleen, the Cat is out of the bag... Live and learn....that is what I get for trusting someone. I have now learned why many others refuse to part with the research they have worked so hard on.. Some people have no scruples, and will plagiarize, copy, and steal everything they can get their hands on and enter the work as their own.. Just to get a little recognition. Sort of sad isn't it? I have actually decided to give up Genealogy as hobby, I am tired of other's taking data I have cheerfully supplied them with, all the while thinking I am helping them, and then, having people in turn, using it as their own and posting it everywhere as their own research. It's one thing, if a person asks, but when you do not have another's permission, it is plainly stealing. Even if it is a collection of vital records as you(yourself) compiled those records to a database and made added notes, stories, and facts...not the person stealing it. It's nothing more than robbery to me. I am aware vital records aren't copyrighted, but a Researcher has taken years to compile these dates, enter them carefully for each person to her or his database, and doesn't appreciate other's using the data in what ever manner they please or submitting to whomever they please... I know this is a touchy subject with people out there, but if people would just communicate with others, and just politely ask another Researcher before you copy their work or use their notes. Most Researchers do not mind. But if they see it plastered all over the Internet, without a person so much as asking, they might. Definitely include their source material and the Compiler's name as the author. If a person prefers you not use their data in that manner, then one should respect their wishes. Many times, they are planning to write a book, like I was, and still am. I didn't want the material posted before I had the entire line more thoroughly researched, proven and published. Thanks for letting me sound off. Penny. ----- Original Message ----- From: <LPurch6636@aol.com> To: <NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [NYOTSEGO] The facts of the new copyright bill. > In a message dated 3/18/04 8:42:09 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cliff.hayes@earthlink.net writes: > Can you imagine someone suing you for taking your great grandma's birthdate > out of their database; then having you come back with the fact that you got it > from someone else's database, not theirs? > > I appreciate this new information-- and I do plan to read the bill. Just > wanted to allay some fears, I hope, that the copyright law for writers has always > maintained a practice of what is called "fair use." You give credit to the > original author in your manuscript (now "database" it seems) and you are allowed > to quote or use a limited portion of their information. I rather assume it > will be much the same with the new database law. Many thanks for bringing this > up, Cliff; I'm a writer and this is the first I have heard of this proposed > law. Something, certainly, has been direly needed for copyrighting a database > that is online. My concern is that the Internet is so open and "freeforall" > that many people are already used to borrowing huge amounts of information for > their own websites. The cat, I am concerned, is already let out of the bag... > > Whenever I write a piece online, it's with the full expectation that "I will > be robbed." I save my serious writing for books and magazine articles. > > Kathleen > > > ==== NYOTSEGO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list in digest mode send an email with > the word, unsubscribe,in the subject field & body of the message > to the following address: NYOtsego-d-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.627 / Virus Database: 402 - Release Date: 3/16/04

In a message dated 3/18/04 8:42:09 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cliff.hayes@earthlink.net writes: Can you imagine someone suing you for taking your great grandma's birthdate out of their database; then having you come back with the fact that you got it from someone else's database, not theirs? I appreciate this new information-- and I do plan to read the bill. Just wanted to allay some fears, I hope, that the copyright law for writers has always maintained a practice of what is called "fair use." You give credit to the original author in your manuscript (now "database" it seems) and you are allowed to quote or use a limited portion of their information. I rather assume it will be much the same with the new database law. Many thanks for bringing this up, Cliff; I'm a writer and this is the first I have heard of this proposed law. Something, certainly, has been direly needed for copyrighting a database that is online. My concern is that the Internet is so open and "freeforall" that many people are already used to borrowing huge amounts of information for their own websites. The cat, I am concerned, is already let out of the bag... Whenever I write a piece online, it's with the full expectation that "I will be robbed." I save my serious writing for books and magazine articles. Kathleen

If you really want to see the proposed legislation, you can view it by going to http://thomas.loc.gov/ and in the place to type in the bill you are interested in, put "HR3261", then click on search. This is the bill that makes any database or compilation made by anyone (other than a person) its copyright and it thus becomes illegal to take it out of a database. In the course of time the term "database" may be expanded to include many other items not now thought of as a database, including compilations of genealogy; hence, depending on the legal interpretation, we could be breaking the law by extracting our ancestors information from someone's database. Can you imagine someone suing you for taking your great grandma's birthdate out of their database; then having you come back with the fact that you got it from someone else's database, not theirs? I can foresee a lot of litigation in the offing if this becomes law. I recommend that you take a look at it and, if you don't like it, let your reps in Congress know about it. Congress makes a lot of good laws. This is not one of them. It is easier to stop it from becoming law than it is to remove it from the books. Cliff Hayes

Hi Leigh, It's a good start...we genealogists are always in a rush. ;) Will mention it next time I visit NYSHA. Hope you're all dug out from the snow storm. Sandy Gilbertsville Free Library wrote: > Sandy - > > Thanks for the "feed back." My only comment, Its a start and we can only > hope they make rapid progress. > > Perhaps you could let them know that you have looked at the new catalogue > and are anxious for future progress ? :) > > Leigh > > Leigh C. Eckmair, Historian > Town of Butternuts & > The Local History Collection > THE Gilbertsville Free Library > librarian@stny.rr.com > http://www.gilbertsville.com/Library.htm > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sandy Goodspeed" <Goodspsm@oneonta.edu> > To: <NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:23 AM > Subject: Re: [NYOTSEGO] NY St. Historical Assoc. Catalogue on line > > | Hi Leigh, > | > | I went to the website and "searched" for a couple of titles of books they have in the > genealogy section and didn't find either on line so I'm wondering if it's their "regular" > | collection and does not yet include genealogy material. I also searched under subject > "Genealogy" and it brought up selelctions by town/city but found nothing for Oneonta or Oxford. > | > | Must be Genealogy will be part of the "additional records" that will be added over next couple > of years. I was disappointed. > | Sandy > | > > ==== NYOTSEGO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list in digest mode send an email with > the word, unsubscribe,in the subject field & body of the message > to the following address: NYOtsego-d-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Sandy - Thanks for the "feed back." My only comment, Its a start and we can only hope they make rapid progress. Perhaps you could let them know that you have looked at the new catalogue and are anxious for future progress ? :) Leigh Leigh C. Eckmair, Historian Town of Butternuts & The Local History Collection THE Gilbertsville Free Library librarian@stny.rr.com http://www.gilbertsville.com/Library.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sandy Goodspeed" <Goodspsm@oneonta.edu> To: <NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 9:23 AM Subject: Re: [NYOTSEGO] NY St. Historical Assoc. Catalogue on line | Hi Leigh, | | I went to the website and "searched" for a couple of titles of books they have in the genealogy section and didn't find either on line so I'm wondering if it's their "regular" | collection and does not yet include genealogy material. I also searched under subject "Genealogy" and it brought up selelctions by town/city but found nothing for Oneonta or Oxford. | | Must be Genealogy will be part of the "additional records" that will be added over next couple of years. I was disappointed. | Sandy |

Hi Leigh, I went to the website and "searched" for a couple of titles of books they have in the genealogy section and didn't find either on line so I'm wondering if it's their "regular" collection and does not yet include genealogy material. I also searched under subject "Genealogy" and it brought up selelctions by town/city but found nothing for Oneonta or Oxford. Must be Genealogy will be part of the "additional records" that will be added over next couple of years. I was disappointed. Sandy Gilbertsville Free Library wrote: > Jan- > > We have just received a notice that the New York State Historical Association's > [Cooperstown] Library Catalogue is now on line. > > The link is http://www.nysha.org/library/. >

Jan- We have just received a notice that the New York State Historical Association's [Cooperstown] Library Catalogue is now on line. The link is http://www.nysha.org/library/. We have only had a few minutes to look at it so can not provide any guidance. However, we presume that it will be of assistance to Otsego County researchers. Good Luck, Leigh Leigh C. Eckmair, Historian Town of Butternuts & The Local History Collection THE Gilbertsville Free Library librarian@stny.rr.com http://www.gilbertsville.com/Library.htm

What do you want to know about your ancestors? That is likely what your descendants will want to know about you and your times. Put in anything that you want your kids and grandkids to be able to know about you. I plan to use a camcorder and tell them about my life. Toward that end, I am compiling a timeline of my own life so that I can give a reasonably accurate and sequential account, hopefully so interesting that they will be willing to watch it. I believe they call it an oral history, but I am going one step further and doing it as a movie. How would you like to have such a movie of your great grandparents? What would you want to see there? I doubt that your kids will be any different. I hope that this answers your question. Cliff Hayes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Snow" <snowstar@earthlink.net> To: <NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 2:36 PM Subject: [NYOTSEGO] Re Genealogical Tithing > This was my reply to Cliff on the Dutchess List (meant to send it also to > Otsego, but was sidetracked by other immediate tasks). I interpreted what > he said not as a problem of preservation of actual materials, but > preservation of family tales, memories and records. > Cliff: What did you mean by genealogical tithing? [VBG] > > Jean > > 08 Mar 2004 Subject: [NYDUTCHE] Re: Genealogical Tithing > Great idea, Cliff! Something we can all do, even if we don't consider > ourselves writers. I've been a columnist for the Southern CA Geneal > Society's excellent publication, The Searcher for the past four years and > two years ago the Editor suggested I take over a limping Writers' Group. We > now average 6- 8 people per meeting, and doing our own "genealogical > tithing" has been a great experience for all. I'll share your phrase with > them neato! > I've collected lists of "memory joggers," and at almost every meeting, I > pick one, or someone else may suggest one (a first date, a special pet, a > recipe with a tale to go with it). Then we write for 20 minutes or so, and > finally share our short 400500 word anecdotes or tales. They are always > delightful and stimulate additional ideas and anecdotes to write about. > There are many excellent books with good ideas, as well as > Internet sources which show you how to get started. One good site is > Virginia Allee's Family History Questionnaire > <http://fcs.tamu.edu/aging/Family_History_Questionnaire.htm> and Kirk > Polking's Writing Family Histories and Memoirs (Betterway Books, 1995) is > also excellent. > So folks, get it down on paper! Your descendants will love you > for it. Jean Chapman Snow > > > ==== NYOTSEGO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list in list mode send an email with the word, unsubscribe,in the subject field & body of the message to the following address: NYOtsego-l-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

I've "rescued" an old photograph of a young lady, S.E. HARTWELL taken at the Winans Studio in Oneonta, New York. The photograph appears to have been taken in the 1880's with the subject appearing to be in her 20's at the time. Other photographs recovered from the same source and originating from the same town include WADE and HOAG surnames. I'm hoping to locate someone from this family so that this wonderful old photograph can be returned to the care of family. If you are a member of this family or know someone who might be, please contact me. Thanks, Shelley

I've "rescued" an old photograph of Augustas & Kay HOAG taken at the Young Studio in Oneonta, New York. The photograph was probably taken in the 1880's or 1890's with the two children appearing to be 5-8 years old at the time, the girl being younger than the boy. Other photographs recovered from the same source and same town include WADE and HARTWELL surnames. I'm hoping to locate someone from this family so that this precious old photograph can be returned to its rightful place with family. If you are a member of this family or know someone who might be, please contact me. Thanks, Shelley

I've "rescued" two old photographs both taken at the Young Studio in Oneonta, New York and identified as Willis WADE and Mrs. Willis WADE. The photograph appears to have been taken in the 1880's with the both subjects looking to be in their 20's or 30's at the time. Other photographs recovered from the same source and taken at studios in Oneonta include surnames HOAG and HARTWELL. Based on limited research I do find Willis WADE and his wife Abbie WADE living in Maryland, NY during the 1880 census. Willis is listed as age 25, born in NY, a Farmer whose parents were also both born in NY. Abbie is listed as age 30, born in NY, with both parents also NY born. I'm hoping to locate someone from this WADE Family so that these wonderful old photographs can be returned to the family. If you are a member of this family or know someone who might be, please contact me. Thanks, Shelley

Elizabeth, As far as I know our Drakes (my husband's, really) were in Massachusetts and New Hampshire early on and then ended up in Michigan. Never hurts to ask, though. Judy Drake - Phoenix, AZ

This was my reply to Cliff on the Dutchess List (meant to send it also to Otsego, but was sidetracked by other immediate tasks). I interpreted what he said not as a problem of preservation of actual materials, but preservation of family tales, memories and records. Cliff: What did you mean by genealogical tithing? [VBG] Jean 08 Mar 2004 Subject: [NYDUTCHE] Re: Genealogical Tithing Great idea, Cliff! Something we can all do, even if we don't consider ourselves writers. I've been a columnist for the Southern CA Geneal Society's excellent publication, The Searcher for the past four years and two years ago the Editor suggested I take over a limping Writers' Group. We now average 6- 8 people per meeting, and doing our own "genealogical tithing" has been a great experience for all. I'll share your phrase with them neato! I've collected lists of "memory joggers," and at almost every meeting, I pick one, or someone else may suggest one (a first date, a special pet, a recipe with a tale to go with it). Then we write for 20 minutes or so, and finally share our short 400500 word anecdotes or tales. They are always delightful and stimulate additional ideas and anecdotes to write about. There are many excellent books with good ideas, as well as Internet sources which show you how to get started. One good site is Virginia Allee's Family History Questionnaire <http://fcs.tamu.edu/aging/Family_History_Questionnaire.htm> and Kirk Polking's Writing Family Histories and Memoirs (Betterway Books, 1995) is also excellent. So folks, get it down on paper! Your descendants will love you for it. Jean Chapman Snow

Hi Judy, Sorry but there is no Hollenbeck Cemetery listed on the Otesgo Co. Cemetery Map I checked the Otsego Co. webpage and under Cemteries there is a Hollenbeck cemetery listed in Worcester. The only two cemeteries in Worcester on the map are Maple Grove and St. Joseph's. 12/15/01Hollenbeck Cemetery Contributed by Larry DeLong on behalf of the Town of Worcester. It says Abandoned rural cemetery South side of Smith Road, just east of Hollenbeck Road intersection Town of Worcester, Otsego County, New York Sources: 1) D.A.R. Cemetery Records, by Lillian Flint Newman, 1935 2) Town of Worcester Cemetery Survey, 1963 According to the Cemetery Map, if you go to Worcester on Rt 7, heading towards Albany, you take a left off Rt. 7 (Main St.) onto Elm, then bear right onto Fairlawn, then take first left onto Kelso and Hallenbeck is the first right on Kelso and it continues on to West Hill. The web page says it's on the South side of Smith Rd but there is no Smith Rd on the Cemetery map but I'm sure if you follow Hallenbeck from Kelso to West Hill, you should find it. There is another road called Little that turns left about halfway down Hallenbeck...about midway between Kelso and West Hill. Go the www.rootsweb.com/~nyotsego/ and go down to Cemetery Lists and then go down to Worcester or use your "Find" key for Hallenbeck and you'll see the cemetery. Sandy Goodspeed JDrake1039@aol.com wrote: > I asked this before but never received a response. I'm wondering if anyone > knows where Hollenbeck Cemetery is and if it accessible. Also what condition the > cemetery and the headstones are in. I have at least one ancestor buried > there. Would love to try to find it next time I get back to New York, probably > later this year. Maybe if someone has the map of cemeteries in Otsego County, they > could try to find it for me. > > Much thanks, > Judy Drake - Phoenix, AZ > > ==== NYOTSEGO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list in digest mode send an email with > the word, unsubscribe,in the subject field & body of the message > to the following address: NYOtsego-d-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

I asked this before but never received a response. I'm wondering if anyone knows where Hollenbeck Cemetery is and if it accessible. Also what condition the cemetery and the headstones are in. I have at least one ancestor buried there. Would love to try to find it next time I get back to New York, probably later this year. Maybe if someone has the map of cemeteries in Otsego County, they could try to find it for me. Much thanks, Judy Drake - Phoenix, AZ

Judy, I can't answer your question, but just thought I would say hi since I also am a Drake. My Drake line is from Otsego County. My great-great-grandfather was Philander Nelson Drake, son of Isaac Drake and ? I think that Isaac was a son of William Drake and Eunice Hamlin Drake but have not been able to confirm this. Might we be kin? Elizabeth Drake Wilson ----- Original Message ----- From: <JDrake1039@aol.com> To: <NYOTSEGO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 15, 2004 8:35 AM Subject: [NYOTSEGO] Hollenbeck Cemetery > > I asked this before but never received a response. I'm wondering if anyone > knows where Hollenbeck Cemetery is and if it accessible. Also what condition the > cemetery and the headstones are in. I have at least one ancestor buried > there. Would love to try to find it next time I get back to New York, probably > later this year. Maybe if someone has the map of cemeteries in Otsego County, they > could try to find it for me. > > Much thanks, > Judy Drake - Phoenix, AZ > > > > > ==== NYOTSEGO Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list in digest mode send an email with > the word, unsubscribe,in the subject field & body of the message > to the following address: NYOtsego-d-request@rootsweb.com > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >