If any one has a good answer, I hope they will answer on list. Liz Parmalee ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 10:43 AM Subject: [NYOnonda] Birth Certificates > I would like to know where would be the best place to look for birth > certificates for 1850 and earlier for Onondaga County if there are any. Thanks Bill > Welch > >

I would like to know where would be the best place to look for birth certificates for 1850 and earlier for Onondaga County if there are any. Thanks Bill Welch

Many counties kept birth, marriage and death records for a brief period in NY State from 1847 to 1850. This was the only time frame that vital records were kept in NY until late in the century. Births can also be substantiated through census records, wills, bible records, etc. Secondary documentation such as obituaries and school records can also be very helpful. Karla ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:43 AM Subject: [NYOnonda] Birth Certificates I would like to know where would be the best place to look for birth certificates for 1850 and earlier for Onondaga County if there are any. Thanks Bill Welch

Diane wrote: "Perhaps the ANSWERS to questions posted on this list should also be posted to the list since they are, after all, about Onondaga County -- maybe others might be as interested in the information as I am." Diane and All, I recently made the same suggestion/request. This list is set up so that clicking on "Reply" sends the message only to the writer of the previous message. Clicking on "Reply All" sends to that person AND the list. Madison County's List is different: Clicking on "Reply" sends to the whole list. One has to work a bit to send just to the writer, and it avoids the mistake of wanting something to go to everyone but sending to only one. My guess is that is a choice made by each list's administrator. I'd like to request that Onondaga's administrator change it. Thanks. Sharon

In a message dated 9/28/2003 7:16:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > I want to thank everyone on the list who providing the answer as to where > Watervale is located So, where IS Watervale? I'm curious. The location of this place just might be important to someone's research in the future. Perhaps the ANSWERS to questions posted on this list should also be posted to the list since they are, after all, about Onondaga County -- maybe others might be as interested in the information as I am. Diane Wilson Flynn

To List, There might be more than one but there is a Watervale in the Town of Pompey in Onondaga County. It is located in the northern portion of the town on Watervale Road between East Seneca Turnpike (173) on the north and the Cherry Valley Turnpike (Route 20) on the south. It also shows up on the 1874 map of the Town of Pompey so it has been around for quite a while. Best Regards, Mike McGraw Austin, TX -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [NYOnonda] Pensions & Watervale In a message dated 9/28/2003 7:16:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > I want to thank everyone on the list who providing the answer as to where > Watervale is located So, where IS Watervale? I'm curious. The location of this place just might be important to someone's research in the future. Perhaps the ANSWERS to questions posted on this list should also be posted to the list since they are, after all, about Onondaga County -- maybe others might be as interested in the information as I am. Diane Wilson Flynn

Hi again, I want to thank everyone on the list who providing the answer as to where Watervale is located and also for sharing the stories of pension records they had ordered. I find the stories fascinating and so full of information and I make notes on my copies as to who or what relationship a person is to the the pensioner that gives a testimony. I also have found some not to be related, but neighbors, as verified through census reports for about the same time period. Many (CivilWar) were put down as deserters, and later disproved because they were in a military hospital. These are great stories and I'm glad to see that others have noted the same things I had in reading pensions. Thanks for sharing the stories! Dianne

My g g grandfather George Rolfe joined the NY 2nd Cal and died of wounds at Harewood Hospital Washington, DC. His Pension files are sad because his wife Livonia Electa Page Rolfe filed and the information in the filing showed that she was very sick with TB. She had 4 little children and was trying to get benefits on their behalf. She died in 1870 and her uncle as guardian gave all 4 children away and kept the money. The records show that they did go to court but it never got worked out. >> Anyway the point I wanted to make is I also sent for his brothers pension files David Rolfe who lived tell 1907. His records were great in that it gave more family history and actually was humorous when you read what some of his neighbors had to say. These records really bring you closer to who your family were and are a real treasure. There names are on a Civil War Monument somewhere in the country. Also a Daniel Rolfe is listed; and I do not know who he was.

It has been a while since I posted. I am researching the Oliver and Clements families that came to Skaneateles and Marcellus from England in the 1840's. Other family names that connect are Gregory, Nightengale, Smith, Schmidt, Purnell, Bond, Marshall, Hardage, Chapman, Gallogg, Livingston, Woods, Richards, Rafferty, Masters, Luchsinger, Bearl, Pope, Coon, Kenyon, Seymour, Stanfield, Clark, Cole, Edmonds, Gloversville, Higgins, Champlain, Whitehead, Lasher, Meade, Mathers, Matthew or Matthews, Dameth. I hope there is someone on this list who shares my interest in these families. Gayle in Kansas [email protected]

The brother of one of my 2g-grandfathers was killed in the Civil War and their mother, Sarah Phillips Hatch, applied for a pension in 1870 as a dependent. Her husband, Samuel Hatch, was still alive when she originally applied but was described in several affidavits as having been unable to do significant work for 15-20 years. She had 12 other children still living at the time but she said that they were all married and had all they could do to support their own families. The affidavit listed all of the living sons, the only source that I have for the existence of a couple of them. She told how many daughters she had but didn't list them. Samuel Hatch went to live with a daughter in CA, apparently early in 1871, while Sarah stayed near some of her children in IL. I'm not sure how a 78-year-old disabled man got from IL to northern CA. The Transcontinental Railroad had been completed in 1869 but it still must have been an arduous journey. Samuel died in CA in 1872 while Sarah's pension application was still pending. Two affidavits in the pension file attest to his date of death by men who had attended the funeral and saw the body. That was before CA began recording VRs. Sarah was granted the pension in 1872 but the file did not have any information after that. Usually there is some indication of when the pension payments stopped. Sometimes you can get clues by what the affidavits don't say. There is usually is statement at the end stating that the person is not related to the applicant and has no interest in the pension. In two of the affidavits in this pension file the part about not being related was omitted. In one case I know that the person was her son-in-law. In the other case the person's surname was Phillips -- Sarah's maiden name -- and was probably her nephew. -----Original Message----- From: Sharon Workman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:42 PM To: Gary Welch; [email protected] Subject: Re: [NYOnonda] Pension files The file I just received, an application by the widowed mother of two sons who died in the Civil War, was full of sworn statements about how destitute she was without their support. I believe it. I know from other information that the family was dirt poor. I thought I was going to learn nothing, but then there was a wonderful page on which she gave her date and place of marriage and her maiden name. I am still absolutely baffled by the family's migrations. Canada, Jefferson County, Broome County, Madison County. I lost track of her (the mother) after 1880, when I found her living in Cuyler, Cortland County, NY with her second husband. She was 56, he 31. Ain't love grand? :>) Sharon > >

Marilyn and Listers, If you can afford the $37 for the full pension file, I highly recommend sending for it. Another thing I found, especially in one of the two I received, was tracing the residences and even genealogy of the witnesses that submitted statements in support of the claim was extremely enlightening. Some neighbors testified that they knew the claimant for X number of years, which told me how long my people lived where they lived. Some of the witnesses re relatives, and that told me a lot. My g g grandmother was requesting compensation for her two young children. She gave the exact date and PLACE of birth for both, so I was able to take that place information and find her parents in the place indicated. She was only 18 when she had her first child and went to her parents to have the baby, so that her mother could help her through it. WONDERFUL stuff. I could go on and on (and often do), but I am trying to support my statement that I've found those records to be a gold mine of information. They merit close study. It paid off for me! Sharon Ancestor Chronicles: Our Kin And Their Times http://groups.msn.com/AncestorChroniclesOurKinAndTheirTimes/ Please visit, join, and share your family stories http://groups.msn.com/OurCivilWarAncestors Ancestors in the Civil War? Come visit and join. Both sites are free.

I want to thank everyone that replied. I do think that the Civil War pension files and county land records and the War of 1812 bounty land records are an excellent source of gen material. This is the every reason that I go to DC to examine what is in the actual records. I found in one that I ordered on my John Shaver/Shaffer, they left out material on his places of residence that I search 20 years for. On Erastus Carson, his separation from his first wife was left out. Fortunately without them many of us would not be able to proof our next generation back. With Erastus, his mother applied for a pension on her youngest son, Geo. W. Carson who died five days after his release from Andersonville. The testimony from the family physician said that Her husband did not provide even the necessities for his family. This send me in tailspin as I was horrified. However, recently some ledger have come on the Schuyler County website which would indicate that John was employed and purchased supplies for his family. I observe migration patterns and look for other families member there.I also watch for references that might not seem right. For example my Lucinda Drown Shaver's obit said that she came in from PA. Her father Wm appears in 1830 on the Bath steuben County, and 1840 Bristol, Ontario county along with John and Lucinda. I have not yet found Wm in 1850 or his widow. Taking the PA reference as possibly meaning that they moved to PA before going to Lapeer county Mi. I spent several years looking for them in PA I finally found them in PA. I finally found them in Steuben County. I continued until I found two Drawn families listed in Bradford county, PA. I found a William listed on the tax lists until 1830 when it is noted that he left the state. Later I found a Jerome Drown listed in Chemung, Chemung County, NY, Drown researcher gave him to a family in Erie County, PA with 15 kids. This time Jerome's pension file copied in its entirety came home with me. Jerome is born in Bradford county, PA. Two solution this man's wife journeyed from Erie county, PA to Bradford County to have her son or he belong to one of the two Drown families there in 1829. Thank you for your time. Marilyn Bess ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Workman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:41 PM Subject: Re: [NYOnonda] Pension files > The file I just received, an application by the widowed mother of two sons > who died in the Civil War, was full of sworn statements about how destitute > she was without their support. I believe it. I know from other information > that the family was dirt poor. I thought I was going to learn nothing, but > then there was a wonderful page on which she gave her date and place of > marriage and her maiden name. > > I am still absolutely baffled by the family's migrations. Canada, Jefferson > County, Broome County, Madison County. I lost track of her (the mother) > after 1880, when I found her living in Cuyler, Cortland County, NY with her > second husband. She was 56, he 31. Ain't love grand? :>) > > Sharon > > > > > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/23/2003

The file I just received, an application by the widowed mother of two sons who died in the Civil War, was full of sworn statements about how destitute she was without their support. I believe it. I know from other information that the family was dirt poor. I thought I was going to learn nothing, but then there was a wonderful page on which she gave her date and place of marriage and her maiden name. I am still absolutely baffled by the family's migrations. Canada, Jefferson County, Broome County, Madison County. I lost track of her (the mother) after 1880, when I found her living in Cuyler, Cortland County, NY with her second husband. She was 56, he 31. Ain't love grand? :>) Sharon > >

There was quite a bit of red tape but I don't think documentation was as available then as now. Two of my 2g-grandfathers served in the same company of the 9th NY Heavy Artillery. One, John Kinsella, was shot in the foot and lost three toes and part of the foot. He applied for a pension the day after he was discharged from the hospital and had little trouble getting a 1/4 pension approved. He did have to keep applying for increases. The other, John Welch, contracted consumption (tuberculosis) while in the army and eventually died from the disease in 1879. His widow, Mary [Doran] Welch didn't apply for a pension until 1890. One of the affidavits in the file was by John Kinsella who stated that he and John Welch shared a tent most of the time and that the latter's coughing frequently disturbed his sleep. So I have a sworn statement that two of my ancestors not only served in the Union Army together but also shared a tent for much of the war. The two families weren't formally united until my grandparents were married in 1917. Mary Welch was awarded a full pension and also received back amounts due for her and her minor children from the date of her husband's death. Another relative served in the Union Army and his widow eventually applied for a pension. The pension file included copies of her divorce decree from her first husband in IL and the marriage certificate to my ancestor a few weeks later in IA. Unfortunately, the divorce decree stated that neither party could remarry for one year and the pension was denied on the grounds they weren't legally married. -----Original Message----- From: Marilyn Bess [mailto:[email protected]m] Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 11:08 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [NYOnonda] Pension files I just returned from the Nat'l archive where I looked and copies almost a 100 pension files of soldiers in Tioga county, PA and various NY counties and also Michigan as related to my families. I have worked on genealogy for over 20 years. I usually only look at original records. However, it may be true that these men were due a pension for their services. If it was to depend on their services, then everyone should have a pension. There was a requirement other than service and that was need due to their not being able to work from an injury received. Many of the claims are based on the results of natural aging and genetic inheritance. Reading several of my father's great uncles and his own grandfather medical conditions is like reading my father's. They had the same problems including strokes, loss of hearing and loss of sight. Many of these conditions were not due to the war and these men would have had them anyways. Many did lie and were reported and some of these still drew their petitions. Other loss a leg, arm etc and died an horrible death. Veterans tended to support each other in their claims and each wrote letters on the other one's behalf. Notarized statements of individuals will be almost verbatim. All of these statements are not accurate. I have several who claming never to have been married but public records and spouses and children left behind say otherwise. I guess he bottom line is that these men were human and it was no different then then it is now. You take some of these statement at face value, others you need to proof and some forget. These are just like other recodes. Many have enlarged on their conditions and others are the Gospel truth. These you consider as a source along with your other sources and if a variation you document. However, you can not build on one piece of information. Then besides your sources, the social economical conditions of the time and area needs to be considered plus many other factors. I grant you there were many injustices and these were not all due to the government or the pension setup. In one that I copied of James R. Carson of Cortland county, the agent stole his widow checks and there was a big write up in the paper and a trial. Thank you for your time Marilyn Carson Bess From: "D Thomas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: [NYOnonda] where is Watervale? Pension files > Hi, > > I received a Civil War pension file for an ancestor who spent several months at Andersonville prison and lived through it. The pension states he lived in Watervale, Onondaga Co. .... not to be mistakend with Westvale. So ...... where exactly is the Watervale area? > > I am amazed how much these soldiers had to fight for their pensions!! They also seemed to have had to fight for increases once they finally got the right to the pension established, and increases were passed by the gov't but unless they applied for the increases, they didn't get them. This particular soldier served 4 years, was wounded in the shoulder, shattering the joint, and they only gave him HALF of disability status. THEN, before his death 35 yrs later, they owed the widow back pension of 2 years and she had to fight for it as well !! > > Has anyone else seen similar experiences with their ancestors?? I > have about a dozen pension files and I am amazed at not only the red tape (not that that has seemed to change) , but the way these veterans, in various wars, gave their all, then they have to battle with the gov't agencies for the "benefits" promised to them. I am not very familiar with military, myself, but perhaps someone has some insight on this subject. I know my brother served in the Korean War, and a cousin died there and the battles that each the families went through in order to get needed medical help. > > thanks, > Dianne > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/23/2003

I just returned from the Nat'l archive where I looked and copies almost a 100 pension files of soldiers in Tioga county, PA and various NY counties and also Michigan as related to my families. I have worked on genealogy for over 20 years. I usually only look at original records. However, it may be true that these men were due a pension for their services. If it was to depend on their services, then everyone should have a pension. There was a requirement other than service and that was need due to their not being able to work from an injury received. Many of the claims are based on the results of natural aging and genetic inheritance. Reading several of my father's great uncles and his own grandfather medical conditions is like reading my father's. They had the same problems including strokes, loss of hearing and loss of sight. Many of these conditions were not due to the war and these men would have had them anyways. Many did lie and were reported and some of these still drew their petitions. Other loss a leg, arm etc and died an horrible death. Veterans tended to support each other in their claims and each wrote letters on the other one's behalf. Notarized statements of individuals will be almost verbatim. All of these statements are not accurate. I have several who claming never to have been married but public records and spouses and children left behind say otherwise. I guess he bottom line is that these men were human and it was no different then then it is now. You take some of these statement at face value, others you need to proof and some forget. These are just like other recodes. Many have enlarged on their conditions and others are the Gospel truth. These you consider as a source along with your other sources and if a variation you document. However, you can not build on one piece of information. Then besides your sources, the social economical conditions of the time and area needs to be considered plus many other factors. I grant you there were many injustices and these were not all due to the government or the pension setup. In one that I copied of James R. Carson of Cortland county, the agent stole his widow checks and there was a big write up in the paper and a trial. Thank you for your time Marilyn Carson Bess From: "D Thomas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: [NYOnonda] where is Watervale? Pension files > Hi, > > I received a Civil War pension file for an ancestor who spent several months at Andersonville prison and lived through it. The pension states he lived in Watervale, Onondaga Co. .... not to be mistakend with Westvale. So ...... where exactly is the Watervale area? > > I am amazed how much these soldiers had to fight for their pensions!! They also seemed to have had to fight for increases once they finally got the right to the pension established, and increases were passed by the gov't but unless they applied for the increases, they didn't get them. This particular soldier served 4 years, was wounded in the shoulder, shattering the joint, and they only gave him HALF of disability status. THEN, before his death 35 yrs later, they owed the widow back pension of 2 years and she had to fight for it as well !! > > Has anyone else seen similar experiences with their ancestors?? I have about a dozen pension files and I am amazed at not only the red tape (not that that has seemed to change) , but the way these veterans, in various wars, gave their all, then they have to battle with the gov't agencies for the "benefits" promised to them. I am not very familiar with military, myself, but perhaps someone has some insight on this subject. I know my brother served in the Korean War, and a cousin died there and the battles that each the families went through in order to get needed medical help. > > thanks, > Dianne > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 9/23/2003

I would be sincerely interested in LISTER comments to Sharon's double post. You gotta give it away in order to keep it! Jim Hartigan Thank you, We preserve records, we share information. Together , we will make a difference for future generations. Jim hartigan CNYGS Member ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Workman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 7:55 AM Subject: Re: [NYOnonda] More on Onondaga Academy > ""TREE TALKS" taking up about 2 feet of shelf > space." > > And endless space on every mailing list to which you are still allowed to > post. > > Sharon > >

Thanks, Sharon. I guess a better system to facilitate the pension request & proofing at the local level was never considered. After all they spent lot of money recruiting on the local level and took just about anyone. War is hell and veterans should not have to do purgatory or hell because of a burocracy we as voter can be instrumental in changing. I believe Congressman Jimmy Walsh may be the committee chair for the Veterans Admin. Many of the people infuencing the current situation, incuding apathetic citizens never eperience the military or God Bless combat. Starting today, let's build more peace tables and be open to using them first, etc. etc. etc. Jim Hartigan Thank you, We preserve records, we share information. Together , we will make a difference for future generations. Jim hartigan CNYGS Member----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Workman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 7:41 AM Subject: [NYOnonda] Pension files > Good timing on your questions about Civil War pension files, Dianne! > Yesterday I received the second which I had requested. The first took 39 > days to receive; the second took just 29 days, far from the 60-90 days the > NARA says we should expect. > > In neither of mine did I see any "fight" for what was being requested. > However, the applicant was required to submit proof, in the way of > documentation or depositions of witnesses, for their claims. Consider the > hundreds of thousands of people eligible to apply - not only disabled > soldiers, but widows and orphans, dependent parents, it makes sense to me > that proof would be required and proof in an acceptable form. If the > government were today just handing out substantial monetary benefits based > just on hearsay, there would be an outcry from taxpayers that would be heard > on the moon. > > My two soldiers died during their service - one killed at the battle of > Fredericksburg, the other starved to death in a Confederate prison camp. > The military readily and quickly supplied proof of that. The widow in one > case had to support the fact she'd been married to the soldier and that she > had dependent children by him. There were no documents for either. In the > other case, it was a dependent and destitute mother making application. Her > husband was dead and she had no means of support except for the two sons who > died as a result of their military service. > > Both claims were approved, and each received $8 a month as compensation. > > By the way, both my pension files were a gold mine of information. > > Sharon > >

""TREE TALKS" taking up about 2 feet of shelf space." And endless space on every mailing list to which you are still allowed to post. Sharon

Good timing on your questions about Civil War pension files, Dianne! Yesterday I received the second which I had requested. The first took 39 days to receive; the second took just 29 days, far from the 60-90 days the NARA says we should expect. In neither of mine did I see any "fight" for what was being requested. However, the applicant was required to submit proof, in the way of documentation or depositions of witnesses, for their claims. Consider the hundreds of thousands of people eligible to apply - not only disabled soldiers, but widows and orphans, dependent parents, it makes sense to me that proof would be required and proof in an acceptable form. If the government were today just handing out substantial monetary benefits based just on hearsay, there would be an outcry from taxpayers that would be heard on the moon. My two soldiers died during their service - one killed at the battle of Fredericksburg, the other starved to death in a Confederate prison camp. The military readily and quickly supplied proof of that. The widow in one case had to support the fact she'd been married to the soldier and that she had dependent children by him. There were no documents for either. In the other case, it was a dependent and destitute mother making application. Her husband was dead and she had no means of support except for the two sons who died as a result of their military service. Both claims were approved, and each received $8 a month as compensation. By the way, both my pension files were a gold mine of information. Sharon

The Struggle still goes on! Please write your Congressman or Senator in support of restoration of Veteran's Benefits before they consider approving the the 84 Billion dollar bill that has the pork devil in the details. It just does not make sense! We need to be spending more dollars on peace table and stop the belligerany attitude! Thanks for listening and your sharing. I have four pension records obtained prior to the recent standard , a civil servant used to select what portions of the file they thought were pertinent. Now you should get the whole file, pension, medical and military. Is this what you experienced for $30 something dollars?We preserve records, we share information about abstracted pre-1860 records of 48 NY State counties straddling various migration trails. I will look up the address of a current public subscriber to "TREE TALKS" near where you live. Just reply to me with your city & state. Http://www.rootsweb.com/~nycnygs Jim Hartigan Proud Member Central New York Genealogical Society We appreciate the offer. At present we have all the volunteers that we can effectively manage. Thank you for your comments. Stay tuned to our webpage for indices and new finding aids as they are added. We recommend that you try a county packet. If you have questions about them, please ask and I will try to answer. Jim Hartigan CNYGS Member ----- Original Message ----- From: "D Thomas" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2003 3:54 AM Subject: [NYOnonda] where is Watervale? Pension files > Hi, > > I received a Civil War pension file for an ancestor who spent several months at Andersonville prison and lived through it. The pension states he lived in Watervale, Onondaga Co. .... not to be mistakend with Westvale. So ...... where exactly is the Watervale area? > > I am amazed how much these soldiers had to fight for their pensions!! They also seemed to have had to fight for increases once they finally got the right to the pension established, and increases were passed by the gov't but unless they applied for the increases, they didn't get them. This particular soldier served 4 years, was wounded in the shoulder, shattering the joint, and they only gave him HALF of disability status. THEN, before his death 35 yrs later, they owed the widow back pension of 2 years and she had to fight for it as well !! > > Has anyone else seen similar experiences with their ancestors?? I have about a dozen pension files and I am amazed at not only the red tape (not that that has seemed to change) , but the way these veterans, in various wars, gave their all, then they have to battle with the gov't agencies for the "benefits" promised to them. I am not very familiar with military, myself, but perhaps someone has some insight on this subject. I know my brother served in the Korean War, and a cousin died there and the battles that each the families went through in order to get needed medical help. > > thanks, > Dianne > >