Without a huge discourse, I'd like to mention a bit about Gaelic naming: Ireland, Scotland, and Wales used and sometimes still uses, as in the case of Wales, patryonic naming. In Ireland and Scotland Mac/Mc meant son of, O, meant grandson of. (And don't forget the Norse...) An example: before the English came, changed things, and handed out surnames, law required that the wealth of a deceased person be distributed to the survivors of c5 generations. Here goes with an example: (assuming my first name is Donald) English Gaelic Relation Donald Domhnall me Donohue Donoghue father Neill Neill grandfather Shaunnessy Seanchai gt grandfather Donavan Dun na Bhan gt gt grand And here would be my full name, back to gt gt grandpa: Domhnall MacDonoghue O'Neill Donoghue MacNeill O'Seanchai' Neill MacSeanchai O'Dun na Bhan Seanchai MacDun na Bhan O' Dun na Bhan Mac...O'... ie: Dun na Bhan became Donovan. The Gaelic does not haave the letters k, v, w, x, y, or z, but has similar sounds. 'bh' in the Gaelic is pronounced 'v'. 't' is often pronounced 'th'. 'th is sometimes pronounced 't'. 'g' as in Donoghue is silent. Spellings, especially in this country, became phonetic. Scots and Irish Gaelic can be different, loch vs lough, pronounced lock, meaning lake. Scotland also has Broad Scots and Doric. Surnames as known today could derive from region or clan, without originally a blood relationship. They could also have derived from a physical feature: Laing/lang meaning someone originally was tall for the times, laing meaning long.Cruikshank, from crooked. Auld Lang Syne-Old times, times of long ago, etc. Scotland uses first name naming conventions: 1st son after father's father 2nd son after mother's father 3rd son after father Etc; 1st dau after mother's mother 2nd dau after father's mother 3rd dau after mother Etc. Middle names were often family surnames. Hence there could be 10 George Campbell Ross' in town. and in a small town, so, which one? Scotland uses 'tee' names in the Northeast, a form of nickname that sticks for life in order to differentiate which one. Wales is a whole other story. Alphabet and pronunciations different than Ireland & Scotland. And they love their consonants! There is a name with 99 letters....... Children did, and I think, still do, memorize at least 7 generations back. 'Ap' is an equilavent of O or Mac: Ap Howell to Powell. My name, Peigi, in English is Peggy, a form of Margaret ( I won't put all the Gaelic spellings of Margaret here). The Gaelic pronunciation is softer on the 'ei' and a soft 'k' sound on the g, 'e' sound on the i. My husband's surname, Mulligan, was O'Mulligan, from bald-headed monks.(remember, long ago, priests etc could marry). I think that's enough to get the idea. The true origin of O'Bryon may remain a mystery. The spellings have evolved over time, phonetics, popular usage, geography. The above from my own knowledge, and Don Donohue's Naming Conventions. Peigi ----- Original Message ----- From: <VTvending@aol.com> To: <NYGREENE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [GREENE COUNTY] Lord > Hello Sylvia: > I agree that O'Brien sounds very Irish. That's the story that had been > handed down though. > Interestingly, Sylvia Magin replied that one of her aunts was an O'Brien and > that the old pronunciation was actually o-BREE-on. This is exactly the > pronunciation that I had been told about. I was also told that the spelling was > something like Obryyn. > I'm not sure whether the unusual pronunciation led to speculation that the > root was actually a Dutch name or if there is basis for that claim. > I do have 1790 census data for Thomas O'Brien in Resselaerville, Albany > County and an account of him arriving in East Jewett about 1806 (Early Settlers > of East Jewett by Horatio N. Beach, reprinted from Catskill Examiner, 17 August > 1871). Both of those references are to Thomas O'Brien. > Does Obryyn or Obyun make any more sense to you? > Thanks, > Tom McHugh > > PS: I agree with all of the 'fan-mail' that you've been getting. This is a > fantastic group here and you seem to be the driving force. Thanks again. > > > ==== NYGREENE Mailing List ==== > Greene County - Abstracts of Wills 1800-1900 - going on-line now! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~nygreen2 > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx >

Pegi a most interesting tidbit. I am not gaelic nor do I have irish ancestry till I go way back. Thanks for the lesson though I will be saving this one! peigi mulligan <pmulligan@hvc.rr.com> wrote:Without a huge discourse, I'd like to mention a bit about Gaelic naming: Ireland, Scotland, and Wales used and sometimes still uses, as in the case of Wales, patryonic naming. In Ireland and Scotland Mac/Mc meant son of, O, meant grandson of. (And don't forget the Norse...) An example: before the English came, changed things, and handed out surnames, law required that the wealth of a deceased person be distributed to the survivors of c5 generations. Here goes with an example: (assuming my first name is Donald) English Gaelic Relation Donald Domhnall me Donohue Donoghue father Neill Neill grandfather Shaunnessy Seanchai gt grandfather Donavan Dun na Bhan gt gt grand And here would be my full name, back to gt gt grandpa: Domhnall MacDonoghue O'Neill Donoghue MacNeill O'Seanchai' Neill MacSeanchai O'Dun na Bhan Seanchai MacDun na Bhan O' Dun na Bhan Mac...O'... ie: Dun na Bhan became Donovan. The Gaelic does not haave the letters k, v, w, x, y, or z, but has similar sounds. 'bh' in the Gaelic is pronounced 'v'. 't' is often pronounced 'th'. 'th is sometimes pronounced 't'. 'g' as in Donoghue is silent. Spellings, especially in this country, became phonetic. Scots and Irish Gaelic can be different, loch vs lough, pronounced lock, meaning lake. Scotland also has Broad Scots and Doric. Surnames as known today could derive from region or clan, without originally a blood relationship. They could also have derived from a physical feature: Laing/lang meaning someone originally was tall for the times, laing meaning long.Cruikshank, from crooked. Auld Lang Syne-Old times, times of long ago, etc. Scotland uses first name naming conventions: 1st son after father's father 2nd son after mother's father 3rd son after father Etc; 1st dau after mother's mother 2nd dau after father's mother 3rd dau after mother Etc. Middle names were often family surnames. Hence there could be 10 George Campbell Ross' in town. and in a small town, so, which one? Scotland uses 'tee' names in the Northeast, a form of nickname that sticks for life in order to differentiate which one. Wales is a whole other story. Alphabet and pronunciations different than Ireland & Scotland. And they love their consonants! There is a name with 99 letters....... Children did, and I think, still do, memorize at least 7 generations back. 'Ap' is an equilavent of O or Mac: Ap Howell to Powell. My name, Peigi, in English is Peggy, a form of Margaret ( I won't put all the Gaelic spellings of Margaret here). The Gaelic pronunciation is softer on the 'ei' and a soft 'k' sound on the g, 'e' sound on the i. My husband's surname, Mulligan, was O'Mulligan, from bald-headed monks.(remember, long ago, priests etc could marry). I think that's enough to get the idea. The true origin of O'Bryon may remain a mystery. The spellings have evolved over time, phonetics, popular usage, geography. The above from my own knowledge, and Don Donohue's Naming Conventions. Peigi ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, March 14, 2005 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [GREENE COUNTY] Lord > Hello Sylvia: > I agree that O'Brien sounds very Irish. That's the story that had been > handed down though. > Interestingly, Sylvia Magin replied that one of her aunts was an O'Brien and > that the old pronunciation was actually o-BREE-on. This is exactly the > pronunciation that I had been told about. I was also told that the spelling was > something like Obryyn. > I'm not sure whether the unusual pronunciation led to speculation that the > root was actually a Dutch name or if there is basis for that claim. > I do have 1790 census data for Thomas O'Brien in Resselaerville, Albany > County and an account of him arriving in East Jewett about 1806 (Early Settlers > of East Jewett by Horatio N. Beach, reprinted from Catskill Examiner, 17 August > 1871). Both of those references are to Thomas O'Brien. > Does Obryyn or Obyun make any more sense to you? > Thanks, > Tom McHugh > > PS: I agree with all of the 'fan-mail' that you've been getting. This is a > fantastic group here and you seem to be the driving force. Thanks again. > > > ==== NYGREENE Mailing List ==== > Greene County - Abstracts of Wills 1800-1900 - going on-line now! > http://www.rootsweb.com/~nygreen2 > > ============================== > Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. > Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx > ==== NYGREENE Mailing List ==== The Diary of John Barr, Ensign in the Revolutionary War. Come read about our revolutionary past from the eyes of one who lived it! http://www.rootsweb.com/~nygreen2 ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page