Great discription of Quaker marriage practices. I agree with everything you wrote, but could never have written it so clearly. Robert Akin ----- Original Message ---- From: Linda C. Koehler <lckoehlr@optonline.net> To: nydutche@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 11:02:36 AM Subject: Re: [NYDUTCHE] Quakers in Duchess County,NYS Hi Carol, If John Dickinson was not Quaker when he married Elizabeth (assuming she was Quaker at the time), there is no way they could have been married in a Quaker ceremony; it just wasn't done. They would have had a civil ceremony, or maybe were married by a minister who did not object to mixed marriages. So by definition, Elizabeth would have married "contrary to discipline", meaning, she did not follow the rules. She would have been approached by a committee of women about her actions, and it was probably fairly automatic that she would be "disowned" as a member in good standing. This would all appear in the minutes of the Quaker meeting that she belonged to. If John Dickinson wished to become a Quaker after he married, there would be nothing stopping him. He just has to convince the meeting that he is sincere in his conversion, as would anyone joining the Quakers or any other church. If she wanted to rejoin her Quaker meeting, Elizabeth would still have to go through a formal process of requesting that she be received back into the meeting, including a public condemnation of her actions (oral or written depending on the time period) in marrying contrary to discipline. This condemnation was for the act of rule-breaking; it didn't affect the "legality" of the marriage itself, and it didn't depend on her husband becoming Quaker or not. If the meeting accepts Elizabeth's regret and apologies, etc, then they will receive her back as a member. Elizabeth, or anyone else who was disowned or was a non-member, could still quietly attend Quaker meetings if they wished, and of course, they could live by Quaker principles. They just couldn't take part in the official business of the meeting and they weren't mentioned in the records. I have gone through the records of the Oswego Monthly Meeting in some detail. From this - and from info in other Quaker meetings - it seems to me that when a person who had been disowned as a Quaker (for "marrying out" or some other offense) requested to be received back as a member in good standing, it often happened in the context of a move. The family might be moving someplace else, or at least moving within the limits of a different Quaker meeting. If someone wanted to join that new meeting, they had to clear up any business they had with their old meeting, because they needed a removal certificate to give to the new meeting. As far as I remember, such a request was seldom denied, even if it was made many years after the original disownment. I'm talking 19th century and earlier Quaker practice here. The earlier in time we go, the more strict the standards; the later in time we go - say, the later 19th century and the 20th century, the more flexibility was allowed. Linda At 03:01 AM 3/27/2008, you wrote: >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Quakers in Duchess County,NYS (cheap@simon.com) > > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 09:19:57 -0400 >From: cheap@simon.com >Subject: Re: [NYDUTCHE] Quakers in Duchess County,NYS >To: nydutche@rootsweb.com ><skip> >As I am just starting to look at this couple, I will keep that in mind. >The DICKINSON's don't seem to have been Quakers but I haven't found much >John & his Brother Joseph, (Joseph is my line) I am hoping to get back >another generation from them. But Joseph is not being helpful at this >time. Of course John's wife Elizabeth could have been Quaker, so that may >be why they are buried in the Friends Cemetery. Did they allow you to >marry outside of the church if the husband converted? > >Thanks, >Carol L. Heap >FL > >------------------------------ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NYDUTCHE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message