Great Website, Cliff! I'm having a little trouble searching even by last initial, but I'm sure that from what you have said, this will be cleared up by the website in due time. Thanks! Cathy Listowner: PAPKE-L, KUTSCHKE-L, BRASSER-L and NYDUTCH-L @Rootsweb.com Papke & Collier Genealogy Home Page http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/o/l/Cathleen-M-Collier/index.html#lin ks Pommernkontakte (managed by Gunthard Stuebs) http://pommernkontakte.de/index.html?sessid=902c28d2590217e7f984864cd40a4281 &mode=page&db=rc&page=welcome Grandparents are similar to a piece of string handy to have around and easily wrapped around the fingers of grandchildren. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cliff Lamere" <clifflamere@global2000.net> To: <NYDUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, 25 May, 2002 12:43 PM Subject: [NYDUTCH] Naturalizations in Albany Co. > Friday morning I had a talk with Craig Carlson of the Albany County Hall of Records. He confirmed that their online database index was only for people who were actually naturalized in Albany Co. (which would have occurred in the City of Albany). He agreed that some people could have a residence in other counties and yet still be naturalized in Albany Co. > > I learned that there are 61,000 people in the naturalization index and that they are in the process of indexing the Declarations of Intention. There are 7,000 indexed so far; they probably will not post them until the index is complete. > > They charge $14 per hour for a search of their records. In the case of naturalizations, the $14 would include copies of both the Intentions and Naturalizations if they both occurred in the county. > > To use the search engine for the naturalizations, go to: http://www.albanycounty.com/achor/ > Click on Naturalization Index > Click on Search our Database > > Your ancestor may not have been recorded with the same spelling that is used today. For example, my Smith ancestor was born Schmidt. Directions say that you can browse the entire database by leaving all fields blank and clicking on Search. However, this procedure leads to an error message and no data. It used to work when they had posted a partial list of people, but it is now too large to work. > > Another approach would be to search for a last name of S only. That brings up the first of 556 screens of records beginning with the letter S, which must be viewed in order, 9 records at a time. Or, you could shorten the search by entering Sm or Schm . The search engine will show every last name beginning with whatever combination of letters that you enter. > > I had a talk with the computer services office to see if more records per search could be allowed, and if there could be a way to browse the records without going to each screen in order. With the S's, it would take at least five minutes to get to the middle of them now if you wanted to browse them. Browsing can be very important. Bailey might also be spelled Bailie, Baily, Bayley and Bayly. If you don't think of all of those variations, you could miss the person you are looking for. Remember that the early records were always handwritten, and a modern transcriber often has a very difficult time deciphering the exact spelling of a name. One wrong letter and the search engine won't find it unless you think of the variation of the spelling. > > To save time with a common name, if you put in the whole surname (Smith), a first initial in the first name field (J) would start the search at Jacob Smith. > > To get a list of all of the people who resided in a certain village or city, enter just that name in the residence field. I learned that over 1600 people naturalized in Albany were actually living in Troy (Rensselaer Co.) at the time, 200 lived in Schenectady, and about 275 people were living in Hudson (Columbia Co.). These are all cities within 25 miles of Albany. Also, try the county name without the word county. > > I was told that computer services would look into making the records more browseable. They may offer the search engine plus a second option of many more records on a webpage for easy browsing. The webmaster was very interested in making things easier for genealogists. > > Cliff > > > > > > ==== NYDUTCH Mailing List ==== > NYDUTCH-L is directed primarily toward those Dutch who emigrated post-1800. Those wishing to also research the earlier period, 1600-1700, may join the DUTCH-COLONIES-L message list at Rootsweb. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Friday morning I had a talk with Craig Carlson of the Albany County Hall of Records. He confirmed that their online database index was only for people who were actually naturalized in Albany Co. (which would have occurred in the City of Albany). He agreed that some people could have a residence in other counties and yet still be naturalized in Albany Co. I learned that there are 61,000 people in the naturalization index and that they are in the process of indexing the Declarations of Intention. There are 7,000 indexed so far; they probably will not post them until the index is complete. They charge $14 per hour for a search of their records. In the case of naturalizations, the $14 would include copies of both the Intentions and Naturalizations if they both occurred in the county. To use the search engine for the naturalizations, go to: http://www.albanycounty.com/achor/ Click on Naturalization Index Click on Search our Database Your ancestor may not have been recorded with the same spelling that is used today. For example, my Smith ancestor was born Schmidt. Directions say that you can browse the entire database by leaving all fields blank and clicking on Search. However, this procedure leads to an error message and no data. It used to work when they had posted a partial list of people, but it is now too large to work. Another approach would be to search for a last name of S only. That brings up the first of 556 screens of records beginning with the letter S, which must be viewed in order, 9 records at a time. Or, you could shorten the search by entering Sm or Schm . The search engine will show every last name beginning with whatever combination of letters that you enter. I had a talk with the computer services office to see if more records per search could be allowed, and if there could be a way to browse the records without going to each screen in order. With the S's, it would take at least five minutes to get to the middle of them now if you wanted to browse them. Browsing can be very important. Bailey might also be spelled Bailie, Baily, Bayley and Bayly. If you don't think of all of those variations, you could miss the person you are looking for. Remember that the early records were always handwritten, and a modern transcriber often has a very difficult time deciphering the exact spelling of a name. One wrong letter and the search engine won't find it unless you think of the variation of the spelling. To save time with a common name, if you put in the whole surname (Smith), a first initial in the first name field (J) would start the search at Jacob Smith. To get a list of all of the people who resided in a certain village or city, enter just that name in the residence field. I learned that over 1600 people naturalized in Albany were actually living in Troy (Rensselaer Co.) at the time, 200 lived in Schenectady, and about 275 people were living in Hudson (Columbia Co.). These are all cities within 25 miles of Albany. Also, try the county name without the word county. I was told that computer services would look into making the records more browseable. They may offer the search engine plus a second option of many more records on a webpage for easy browsing. The webmaster was very interested in making things easier for genealogists. Cliff

It certainly is, Doris! And one of the reasons I started genealogical research over 20 years ago. I am a 4th generation cancer patient -- My mother, my grandmother and my Ggrandmother all died of various forms of cancer and at early ages. My family is riddled with pockets of it as well as heart disease, and a few other problems that are genetically pre-disposed. I finally found the "root" cause in my mother's line, French-Canadian, when researching that line. A cousin of mine had sent me a lot of the line and virtually every single member of my Ggrandmother's family had died of some form of cancer. Knowledge is power. All cancers at this point are not curable, but finding the predisposition toward it or any illness through your own genealogical research, can be invaluable to yourself and to making future generations aware that they just need to keep a closer check on themselves and their loved ones! I am living testimony of that. There are a couple genealogy programs that address tracing your ancestral medical history. I haven't tried one out myself yet, but they do look interesting. Cathy Listowner: PAPKE-L, KUTSCHKE-L, BRASSER-L and NYDUTCH-L @Rootsweb.com Papke & Collier Genealogy Home Page http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/o/l/Cathleen-M-Collier/index.html#lin ks Pommernkontakte (managed by Gunthard Stuebs) http://pommernkontakte.de/index.html?sessid=902c28d2590217e7f984864cd40a4281 &mode=page&db=rc&page=welcome Co-moderator AAA-surviving-cancer@yahoogroups.com Grandparents are similar to a piece of string handy to have around and easily wrapped around the fingers of grandchildren. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doris R Waggoner" <doriswaggoner@juno.com> To: <NYDUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, 22 May, 2002 11:47 PM Subject: Re: [NYDUTCH] Harmon Abell born abt 1811 somewhere in New York > I can't speak to your naming questions. But I'd suggest that even that > far back, the medical history is important to you and your family. I had > long known that my mother's mother had breast cancer in 1930 (she took > the bus downtown to the medical-dental building, found herself a surgeon, > and had a radical mastectomy. No radiation or chemo in those days. She > livved 45 more years!). I got breast cancer in 1996. I had a modified > radical mastectomy, no radiation or chemo needed, and am fine. My mother > got breast cancer in 1999, had a lumpectomy and radiation and is fine. > It wasn't until we were talking about her family the other day that she > told me her mother's mother had died of cancer and she always had the > idea it was breast cancer. So that's four generations. Not all the > daughters got it, of course, but still it's important for others in the > family to know! I also have a friend who can trace breast or prostate > cancer (caused by the same gene, though neither is always genetic) in > almost every death on one side of her family for four generations. If > your family's doctors know about such risk factors, they can help you > change the risk factors you can control and do the appropriate tests. > Not to scare the bejeebers out of you, you understand, but that kind of > information is one of the side benefits of genealogy! > > Doris Waggoner > Seattle > > ________________________________________________________________ > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. > > > ==== NYDUTCH Mailing List ==== > Questions, problems, or comments may be directed to the Listowner, Cathy Collier <cathyclerk@cfl.rr.com> > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

I can't speak to your naming questions. But I'd suggest that even that far back, the medical history is important to you and your family. I had long known that my mother's mother had breast cancer in 1930 (she took the bus downtown to the medical-dental building, found herself a surgeon, and had a radical mastectomy. No radiation or chemo in those days. She livved 45 more years!). I got breast cancer in 1996. I had a modified radical mastectomy, no radiation or chemo needed, and am fine. My mother got breast cancer in 1999, had a lumpectomy and radiation and is fine. It wasn't until we were talking about her family the other day that she told me her mother's mother had died of cancer and she always had the idea it was breast cancer. So that's four generations. Not all the daughters got it, of course, but still it's important for others in the family to know! I also have a friend who can trace breast or prostate cancer (caused by the same gene, though neither is always genetic) in almost every death on one side of her family for four generations. If your family's doctors know about such risk factors, they can help you change the risk factors you can control and do the appropriate tests. Not to scare the bejeebers out of you, you understand, but that kind of information is one of the side benefits of genealogy! Doris Waggoner Seattle ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

In response to this same email inquiry on another mailing list, it was pointed out that an adult baptism might occur in early adolescence. It would depend on the age at which an individual understood what he or she was doing relative to the religion. It would be the age at which the parents no longer needed to speak for the child as they would in an infant baptism. Cliff.

Hi Mary, Here is someone who was one of the first ABEELs in America. His name was Stoffel Janse ABEEL. He was born in Holland in about 1622. He was 32 on 3 Feb 1665. He married Neeltje Jans Croon and had a daughter named Elisabeth who was born about 1666. Stoeffel's will is dated 4 Dec 1670. He is listed in Pearson's "First Settlers of Albany". Elisabeth married Evert Bancker. Richard

Dear Richard, Thanks for the reply and the additional info !!!! I'll check it out !!! Did Stoffel have any sons ?? xoxo, Mary McCashland On Wed, 22 May 2002 07:31:20 -0700 "Richard Hayes" <RAHayes@chartermi.net> writes: > Hi Mary, > > Here is someone who was one of the first ABEELs in America. His name > was > Stoffel Janse ABEEL. He was born in Holland in about 1622. He was 32 > on 3 > Feb 1665. He married Neeltje Jans Croon and had a daughter named > Elisabeth > who was born about 1666. Stoeffel's will is dated 4 Dec 1670. He is > listed > in Pearson's "First Settlers of Albany". > > Elisabeth married Evert Bancker. > > Richard > > > ==== NYDUTCH Mailing List ==== > Questions, problems, or comments may be directed to the Listowner, > Cathy Collier <cathyclerk@cfl.rr.com> > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

Dear Cliff, Thank you for your reply !!! I will try out the link . I did not mention that he married a lady named Emeline Murch. What kind of name would you say Murch is ?? their children were named 1) James Peter 2) Perry Eugene 3) Lucy Malvina 4) Emeline Eliza. Does this suggest any names that I should look for, for Harmon's parents or Emeline's parents ?? I am not familiar with the naming conventions . Also, Harmon died young, and several of his descendents including James died of heart ailments - thus I think heart disease may have run in his family . How do you think I can use this information ?? thanks a lot !!! Mary McCashland On Wed, 22 May 2002 02:11:08 -0400 Cliff Lamere <clifflamere@global2000.net> writes: > Mary, > > Try this link to some New York Abeels mentioned in a book. You may > recognize a name even though I didn't see Harmon among them. > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~darci/notes/bios/abel.htm > > "1st - does this sound like a Dutch name to any of you ??" Arthur > C.M. Kelly lists it in his book "Names, Names and More Names - > Locating Your Dutch Ancestors in Colonial America". Although what > the list means is not exactly clear, I believe it is supposed be a > list of mostly Dutch surnames. > > "2nd - would it be likely for someone who was not Dutch to be > baptised / christened into the Dutch reformed church in 1834 ??" > The Reformed Church is Calvanist. So is the Presbyterian Church. > From 1800 to 1950, the Albany Reformed Church frequently had > difficulty in hiring a Reformed minister and more often hired a > Presbyterian minister than one trained in the Reformed religion. > So, it would not be too great a leap to go from Presbyterian to > Reformed. Also, there were times in parts of the Netherlands when > Reformed was the required religion, only to be replaced with the > Lutheran religion, and then be replaced again by Reformed. In New > Netherland, Lutherans often went to the Reformed Church before > Lutheran Churches became established in this country. However, I > think it all happened too early to play a role in 1834. I believe > my answer to #1 may eliminate the need for a better answer to this > question. > > "3rd - how old would a person have to be, to be considered an adult > for an adult christening ??" Probably 21. As I recall, children > whose father died at age 18 or 19 needed a guardian, even if living > with their own mother. > > "4th - I find no land records in his name yet he was a farmer. If > he did not own his land, what kind of records would exist for the > rental (or whatever) of the land ??" If he lived in Rensselaer or > Albany Co., he would very likely have lived in the Rensselaerswyck > Manor and have paid a yearly rent. I don't know if such records > have survived. I think that the land was still passed from person > to person with a deed, however, even though the person could not > technically own the land. So, the County Clerk's Office may have > the deed information. I know that Albany Co. has the deed (in > Dutch) of my ancestor who bought land from the Indians in the 1600s. > It is on microfilm. Although he bought the land, he did not own it > because it was part of the Rensselaerswyck land grant to Killiaen > Van Rensselaer. > > Cliff Lamere Albany, NY > > > mary k mccashland wrote: > > > everyone, > > I am looking for birth, siblings, etc. information about Harmon > ABELL who > > was born abt 1811 somewhere in New York. Several of us have > always > > thought that he was of Dutch ancestry, but *all of his children* > said > > that he was born in New York when they replied to the 1880 census. > There > > was an adult baptism/christening of Harmon ABELL in Schagticoke, > New > > York, into the Dutch reformed church. But I don't know if he was > 'my' > > Harmon ABELL or not. > > > > > > > > 2nd - would it be likely for someone who was not Dutch to be > baptised / > > christened into the Dutch reformed church in 1834 ?? > > > > 3rd - how old would a person have to be, to be considered an adult > for an > > adult christening ?? > > > > 4th - I find no land records in his name yet he was a farmer. > If he > > did not own his land, what kind of records would exist for the > rental (or > > whatever) of the land ?? > > > > 5th - finally - of course - anyone else connected to this > character ?? > > > > I am already on the Rensseler list - contemplating having to > join each > > list for every one of the counties in New York. Suggestions ?? > > thanks, > > mary mccashland > > > > > > ==== NYDUTCH Mailing List ==== > NYDUTCH-L is directed primarily toward those Dutch who emigrated > post-1800. Those wishing to also research the earlier period, > 1600-1700, may join the DUTCH-COLONIES-L message list at Rootsweb. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

Mary, Try this link to some New York Abeels mentioned in a book. You may recognize a name even though I didn't see Harmon among them. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~darci/notes/bios/abel.htm "1st - does this sound like a Dutch name to any of you ??" Arthur C.M. Kelly lists it in his book "Names, Names and More Names - Locating Your Dutch Ancestors in Colonial America". Although what the list means is not exactly clear, I believe it is supposed be a list of mostly Dutch surnames. "2nd - would it be likely for someone who was not Dutch to be baptised / christened into the Dutch reformed church in 1834 ??" The Reformed Church is Calvanist. So is the Presbyterian Church. From 1800 to 1950, the Albany Reformed Church frequently had difficulty in hiring a Reformed minister and more often hired a Presbyterian minister than one trained in the Reformed religion. So, it would not be too great a leap to go from Presbyterian to Reformed. Also, there were times in parts of the Netherlands when Reformed was the required religion, only to be replaced with the Lutheran religion, and then be replaced again by Reformed. In New Netherland, Lutherans often went to the Reformed Church before Lutheran Churches became established in this country. However, I think it all happened too early to play a role in 1834. I believe my answer to #1 may eliminate the need for a better answer to this question. "3rd - how old would a person have to be, to be considered an adult for an adult christening ??" Probably 21. As I recall, children whose father died at age 18 or 19 needed a guardian, even if living with their own mother. "4th - I find no land records in his name yet he was a farmer. If he did not own his land, what kind of records would exist for the rental (or whatever) of the land ??" If he lived in Rensselaer or Albany Co., he would very likely have lived in the Rensselaerswyck Manor and have paid a yearly rent. I don't know if such records have survived. I think that the land was still passed from person to person with a deed, however, even though the person could not technically own the land. So, the County Clerk's Office may have the deed information. I know that Albany Co. has the deed (in Dutch) of my ancestor who bought land from the Indians in the 1600s. It is on microfilm. Although he bought the land, he did not own it because it was part of the Rensselaerswyck land grant to Killiaen Van Rensselaer. Cliff Lamere Albany, NY mary k mccashland wrote: > everyone, > I am looking for birth, siblings, etc. information about Harmon ABELL who > was born abt 1811 somewhere in New York. Several of us have always > thought that he was of Dutch ancestry, but *all of his children* said > that he was born in New York when they replied to the 1880 census. There > was an adult baptism/christening of Harmon ABELL in Schagticoke, New > York, into the Dutch reformed church. But I don't know if he was 'my' > Harmon ABELL or not. > > > > 2nd - would it be likely for someone who was not Dutch to be baptised / > christened into the Dutch reformed church in 1834 ?? > > 3rd - how old would a person have to be, to be considered an adult for an > adult christening ?? > > 4th - I find no land records in his name yet he was a farmer. If he > did not own his land, what kind of records would exist for the rental (or > whatever) of the land ?? > > 5th - finally - of course - anyone else connected to this character ?? > > I am already on the Rensseler list - contemplating having to join each > list for every one of the counties in New York. Suggestions ?? > thanks, > mary mccashland >

Cliff & Mary, No disagreement with anything Cliff had to say, but I may be able to expand a couple things: >"1st - does this sound like a Dutch name to any of you ??" Arthur C.M. Kelly lists it in his book "Names, Names and More Names - Locating Your Dutch Ancestors in Colonial America". Although what the list means is not exactly clear, I believe it is supposed be a list of mostly Dutch surnames. The given name Harmon was very common amongst the Dutch. I have done quite a bit of research on the colony in Brazil as well as early New York and "South River" (Delaware) and Harmon is one of the most common names or patronymics I have run into. Of course, that was a very early period and names tended to loose their "ethnic" identity as the nation become more racially and culturally diverse. >"2nd - would it be likely for someone who was not Dutch to be baptised / christened into the Dutch reformed church in 1834 ??" The Reformed Church is Calvanist. So is the Presbyterian Church. From 1800 to 1950, the Albany Reformed Church frequently had difficulty in hiring a Reformed minister and more often hired a Presbyterian minister than one trained in the Reformed religion. So, it would not be too great a leap to go from Presbyterian to Reformed. Also, there were times in parts of the Netherlands when Reformed was the required religion, only to be replaced with the Lutheran religion, and then be replaced again by Reformed. In New Netherland, Lutherans often went to the Reformed Church before Lutheran Churches became established in this country. However, I think it all happened too early to play a role in 1834. I believe my answer to #1 may eliminate the need for a better answer to this question. Most of the Dutch on the Delaware (which I am most familiar with) either married a Swede and fell right into the Swedish Lutheran congregations there, or adopted the Moravian faith when it was introduced. The Dutch do not appear to have been as exclussive about their religion as many others were (as with the Swedish congregations, which are ethnically exclussive to this day). Of course, we are talking about a people that demonstrated religious and racial tolerance LONG before any of their European peers. Since the 1500's, the Dutch have provide a safe haven for the religiously oppressed. >"3rd - how old would a person have to be, to be considered an adult for an adult christening ??" Probably 21. As I recall, children whose father died at age 18 or 19 needed a guardian, even if living with their own mother. This would also depend on the time period being discussed. Under English law, a 16 year old male was considered an adult in almost every way. I believe the only thing they could not do was sell property - they could definitely be conscripted, sued, taxed and married without consent. 18 was an post Revolutionary innovation and the very modern age of 21 began to take hold after WWII. >"4th - I find no land records in his name yet he was a farmer. If he did not own his land, what kind of records would exist for the rental (or whatever) of the land ??" If he lived in Rensselaer or Albany Co., he would very likely have lived in the Rensselaerswyck Manor and have paid a yearly rent. I don't know if such records have survived. I think that the land was still passed from person to person with a deed, however, even though the person could not technically own the land. So, the County Clerk's Office may have the deed information. I know that Albany Co. has the deed (in Dutch) of my ancestor who bought land from the Indians in the 1600s. It is on microfilm. Although he bought the land, he did not own it because it was part of the Rensselaerswyck land grant to Killiaen Van Rensselaer. No additional take on this. Jerry D. Vandiver ________________________________________________________ Outgrown your current e-mail service? Get a 25MB Inbox, POP3 Access, No Ads and No Taglines with LYCOS MAIL PLUS. http://login.mail.lycos.com/brandPage.shtml?pageId=plus

Dear Leona, Kaldenkirchen is not in Holland, but in Germany. See: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?addtohistory=&countrycode=88&country=DE &address=&city=kaldenkirchen&zipcode=&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 Kirchen is German for church. In Dutch it's kerk. Greetings, Anne Simonse ----- Original Message ----- From: <Scratchwel@aol.com> To: <NYDUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 2:16 AM Subject: Re: [NYDUTCH] Stryker > A Stryker family also came into Germantown, Pa. around 1695 from > Kaldenkirchen, Holland. They are prominently mentioned in histories of > Germantown, Pa. Leona Scott > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

SusanS373@aol.com wrote: > > > >I have no stake regarding either list but would like to see all find the list >that can help them the most! :-) > >Susan > It is impossible for Rootsweb mailing lists not to have some overlap, regardless of their stated purpose or location, simply because of the ever-increasing number of people who are using them and the varied levels of research ability and knowledge of those people, and which online resource they happen to run across first. For instance, there are countless requests over all mailing lists for information or a site which is readily available online if the person asking did a simple search first. In most instances, the Census-Lookup lists are duplicating resources available that are readily available through the state/county mailing lists and websites. The best thing to help the most is simply to remain patient regarding queries in the wrong place and make friendly, appropriate referrals for what they need. Diane

This is only a suggestion but it is possible that your Boom ancestor is a descendant of the German Palatine BOHM family. The emigrant Hendrich Bohm came in 1710 to Dutchess Co NY ( addressed on p. 80 of "The Palatine Families of New York" by Henry Z. Jones Jr.. ) Members of this family are found in Ulster Co NY church records with varying spellings of this name (Boehm, Beem Beam etc.....and maybe in later generation Boom). Of course everyone spoke Dutch and actually thought of themselves as Dutch culturally. Many married into Dutch families and in later generations heard that their ancestors were Dutch. (some probably were!). My grandmother was an Ulster Co SMITH and I have now found that she descended from the German SCHMIDT family. (My uncle insists that there was never any mention of German ancestors....probably not..they melded into the Dutch culture very early on..the name for a while was seen as SMIT.) My SCRIBER grandfather's ancestors were orginally SCHREIBERS then SCHRYVERS. The early Dutch Colonies were made up of English, German, Dutch and French Huguenots....as well as those of a number of other ethnicities. The names sometimes took on Dutch spellings or odd phonetic ones as the ear heard them. Some patronymics became surnames as well as others based on places of origin and others came from some sort of "nickname" that described the individual. Susan

I am again going to ask politely that this issue be taken off the list. Susan, if you have a problem, direct it to me, personally. As far as there being a conflict, you are absolutely correct that the Dutch-colonies list is not advertized appropriately, but that is not my problem -- it is an issue you need to take up with the listowner of the Dutch-Colonies list and Rootsweb, not with NYDutch-L. If you will notice, I have added a tag line to the end of the NYDutch-L mailings directing members to the Dutch-Colonies list should they so desire. People who have ancestors who either have not been researched as far back as the 1600-1700s or whose immigrant ancestor arrived after 1800 certainly do have a place on this list and will always be welcome. I think at this point, people are able to discern their needs and able to make their own decisions as to which list is the more appropriate for them. There are bound to be cross-over areas, like the meanings of names, etc -- that didn't change just because our ancestors immigrated later rather than earlier. But, that also doesn't mean that all the so-called experts on the Dutch-Colonies list have a corner on the market on helping others. My own lines immigrated in the 1840's and 1850's, but I can trace them back to the Netherlands before 1600. Dutch-Colonies can not, nor never did help me when I joined that list 4 years ago, since it is directed at Colonial AMERICA, not the Netherlands. I have written to the Listowner, Holly, in an attempt to create a dialog between us and have made a few constructive suggestions on how we can proceed and co-exist. I understand she is not very good about answering her e-mail. I have made every effort to be fair and accomodating to the minority of people from the Dutch-Colonies list that seem to think I am usurping their potential members or trying to take over their "territory". I assure you this is not the case, nor ever was. Please do not carry this discussion any further on the list. Again, the issue is with the lack of advertizing that Dutch-Colonies receives from Rootsweb and at the behest of it's listowner, Holly. Any other discussion of this "problem" as you see it, should be handled on that list or by the listowner and not bother the NYDutch-L list. I am willing to help in anyway I can, but the new list is going to stay as is. Cathy Listowner: PAPKE-L, KUTSCHKE-L, BRASSER-L and NYDUTCH-L @Rootsweb.com Papke & Collier Genealogy Home Page http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/o/l/Cathleen-M-Collier/index.html#lin ks Pommernkontakte (managed by Gunthard Stuebs) http://pommernkontakte.de/index.html?sessid=902c28d2590217e7f984864cd40a4281 &mode=page&db=rc&page=welcome Grandparents are similar to a piece of string handy to have around and easily wrapped around the fingers of grandchildren. ----- Original Message ----- From: <SusanS373@aol.com> To: <NYDUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: Re: [NYDUTCH] Re:Misleading about this list > Well, I think there IS an issue at hand here. I do not disagree that there > may be a need for both lists NYDUTCH and DUTCH-COLONIES but if I were just > starting out I'd say neither by their names really give me a clue as to their > fine-lined focus. Add to that the point made by several that the > DUTCH-COLONIES list is not really easily located at Rootsweb. If I were > setting out to do research on ancestors that I *thought* were Dutch and > *thought* may have been from NY I would probably find the NYDUTCH list. It is > doubtful that I'd be looking under MISC. which is where the DUTCH-COLONIES > list is located. > > For those who KNOW their ancestors came after 1800 the NYDUTCH may serve a > purpose but already it appears that many of the queries on this list are > about mysteries that may be better addressed on the DUTCH-COLONIES list. (and > by all appearance most likely link to earlier Dutch, German Palatine etc. > ancestors of the Dutch-Colonies). I really feel that in some cases some of > the subscribers on this list would be better helped on the DC list., in that > it is clear that they don't really know for sure that their ancestors came > after 1800. > > So for those who are not sure, the answers may very well be found on the DC > list. By the 1800s many of the earlier Dutch and German names evolved to > various spellings and pronunciations By now those on the DC list have seen > these variations and can probably offer clues as to the original emigrant > ancestor. Also by the 1800s many who settled in NJ made their way to NY with > a permutation of the original name which can be misleading (infering that > they just arrived from another country). > > I have no stake regarding either list but would like to see all find the list > that can help them the most! :-) > > Susan > > > > > ==== NYDUTCH Mailing List ==== > Questions, problems, or comments may be directed to the Listowner, Cathy Collier <cathyclerk@cfl.rr.com> > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Well, I think there IS an issue at hand here. I do not disagree that there may be a need for both lists NYDUTCH and DUTCH-COLONIES but if I were just starting out I'd say neither by their names really give me a clue as to their fine-lined focus. Add to that the point made by several that the DUTCH-COLONIES list is not really easily located at Rootsweb. If I were setting out to do research on ancestors that I *thought* were Dutch and *thought* may have been from NY I would probably find the NYDUTCH list. It is doubtful that I'd be looking under MISC. which is where the DUTCH-COLONIES list is located. For those who KNOW their ancestors came after 1800 the NYDUTCH may serve a purpose but already it appears that many of the queries on this list are about mysteries that may be better addressed on the DUTCH-COLONIES list. (and by all appearance most likely link to earlier Dutch, German Palatine etc. ancestors of the Dutch-Colonies). I really feel that in some cases some of the subscribers on this list would be better helped on the DC list., in that it is clear that they don't really know for sure that their ancestors came after 1800. So for those who are not sure, the answers may very well be found on the DC list. By the 1800s many of the earlier Dutch and German names evolved to various spellings and pronunciations By now those on the DC list have seen these variations and can probably offer clues as to the original emigrant ancestor. Also by the 1800s many who settled in NJ made their way to NY with a permutation of the original name which can be misleading (infering that they just arrived from another country). I have no stake regarding either list but would like to see all find the list that can help them the most! :-) Susan

Thank you very much, Suzanne. I have written directly to the Listowner of the Dutch-Colonies list in an effort to resolve what is apparently becoming an issue for the Dutch-Colonies list. For that I am sorry. Our new list does address a later period and has been sorely needed for a long time. I have received many letters not only through the list, as you have all seen, but also to me personally addressing basically this new usurper. I hope I have responded to them all and have resolved those individual problems. I am still waiting for a response from my note to the listowner. There is also a big discussion on the other list right now about changing the name of their list as well, propogated by the same person. I think that would be a big mistake as well. What needs to happen though is the Dutch-Colonies list needs to have a more prominent position on the rootsweb list index instead of being hidden away at the bottom of the USA States listings under Miscellaneaous! It took me forever to find it and that is only because I was looking specifically for it. Those who are not aware of it's very existence wouldn't even know to look. That is not my problem. It is one that needs to be addressed with Rootsweb's list manager by Dutch-Colonies. I hope this can be resolved soon. As for those of us on this list, please, let's not make this an issue here, as well. Let's just get on with the business of researching our own lines and posting notes to this list appropriate to it's content. Cathy Collier Listowner: PAPKE-L, KUTSCHKE-L, BRASSER-L and NYDUTCH-L @Rootsweb.com Papke & Collier Genealogy Home Page http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/o/l/Cathleen-M-Collier/index.html#lin ks Pommernkontakte (managed by Gunthard Stuebs) http://pommernkontakte.de/index.html?sessid=902c28d2590217e7f984864cd40a4281 &mode=page&db=rc&page=welcome Grandparents are similar to a piece of string handy to have around and easily wrapped around the fingers of grandchildren. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Carpenter" <suzannec@iserv.net> To: <NYDUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, 21 May, 2002 9:34 AM Subject: [NYDUTCH] Re:Misleading about this list > NYDUTCH Listers, > I disagree with Jean that 99% of queries are about the Dutch who arrived in > the 1600's. That's because there never was a list to address those of us > who had ancestors arrive in the 1800's. Now that this list is in existence, > it will get > many queries as people find out that it is here. > > I have colonial Dutch too, but that list doesn't help me with my later > arrivals. > Let's hear a cheer for the NYDUTCH list. After all, NEW AMSTERDAM was the > name of > the early Dutch colony, while NEW YORK was what it was called after the > English > took over and it became an English possession. So keep it NYDUTCH. > Suzanne (Tjietjema)Carpenter > in Michigan > > > ==== NYDUTCH Mailing List ==== > NYDUTCH-L is directed primarily toward those Dutch who emigrated post-1800. Those wishing to also research the earlier period, 1600-1700, may join the DUTCH-COLONIES-L message list at Rootsweb. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

everyone, I am looking for birth, siblings, etc. information about Harmon ABELL who was born abt 1811 somewhere in New York. Several of us have always thought that he was of Dutch ancestry, but *all of his children* said that he was born in New York when they replied to the 1880 census. There was an adult baptism/christening of Harmon ABELL in Schagticoke, New York, into the Dutch reformed church. But I don't know if he was 'my' Harmon ABELL or not. 1st - does this sound like a Dutch name to any of you ?? 2nd - would it be likely for someone who was not Dutch to be baptised / christened into the Dutch reformed church in 1834 ?? 3rd - how old would a person have to be, to be considered an adult for an adult christening ?? 4th - I find no land records in his name yet he was a farmer. If he did not own his land, what kind of records would exist for the rental (or whatever) of the land ?? 5th - finally - of course - anyone else connected to this character ?? I am already on the Rensseler list - contemplating having to join each list for every one of the counties in New York. Suggestions ?? thanks, mary mccashland ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

NYDUTCH Listers, I disagree with Jean that 99% of queries are about the Dutch who arrived in the 1600's. That's because there never was a list to address those of us who had ancestors arrive in the 1800's. Now that this list is in existence, it will get many queries as people find out that it is here. I have colonial Dutch too, but that list doesn't help me with my later arrivals. Let's hear a cheer for the NYDUTCH list. After all, NEW AMSTERDAM was the name of the early Dutch colony, while NEW YORK was what it was called after the English took over and it became an English possession. So keep it NYDUTCH. Suzanne (Tjietjema)Carpenter in Michigan

A Stryker family also came into Germantown, Pa. around 1695 from Kaldenkirchen, Holland. They are prominently mentioned in histories of Germantown, Pa. Leona Scott

To Whom It May Concern: The name of this mailing list is misleading to NEW subscribers in that 99% of email queries are concerning those Dutch families whose ancestors arrived in NN/NY in 1600s. Apparently, the new susbcribers are not aware of the existence of DUTCH-COLONIES-L. So: I recommend the name change of the mailing list (the sooner the better): NYDUTCH-AFTER-1800. Dutch-Colonies-L (DC-L) members value knowledgeableness, accuracy, reliability, honesty, logical thinking of some members who are experts and scholars and authors of genealogy and history -- different from those who distriubute undocumented information at www.ancestry.com, www.familysearch.com, and the like. For the new subscribers who are descendants of Dutch-Colonial Families: here is how to join DC-L: 1.Click Dutch-Colonies-L-REQUEST@rootsweb.com 2. Then type "SUBSCRIBE" on the body of message. Within minutes, they will confirm your membership. Then you may submit your query to Dutch-Colonies-L@rootsweb.com. If you have some problem about the subscription to DC-L, you may consult its listowner Holly Timm at mailto:htimm@cox.net Regards, Jean Boutcher "Genealogy *without* documentation is like mythology."