Hello Gail, I have done some fairly extensive historical research down at Old St. Patrick's Cathedral, and the question of burials there has always been of primary interest to me. Just for the record, and before my long spiel, what was the child's family name, please? Unfortunately, the answer to your question is fairly complex. The only records that anyone has been able to find are a few range maps of the cemeteries surrounding the church, and several small notebooks books that apparently were compiled sometime in the early 1900's, LONG after any burials were still taking place at the cathedral cemetery. these books note the locations of gravesites that had grave markers placed upon them that were readable at the time that these books were created. For the most part, the notebooks only have family surnames and possible burial dates listed that were copied directly off the grave markers, and the range locations of the graves. In your case, a FURTHER complication to your quest is that your ancestor's child died in 1843. By roughly 1833, the cemeteries surrounding Old St. Patrick's were completely filled, and no "new" burials were said to have taken place there. This is not entirely accurate, though. If a family had an existing grave plot in the cemetery, "new" burials could add to those already there. So where were Manhattan Catholics buried after 1833? St. Patrick's and the Diocese of New York opened an "annex" to St. Patrick's cemetery at Eleventh Street and First Avenue. This was a small plot of land, but an astounding number of burials was said to be performed there between 1833 and roughly 1848, when Calvary Cemetery in Queens first opened its gates. Some burials still took place at Eleventh Street into the early 1850's, regardless of what the stated policy of the diocese was. Unfortunately, the Eleventh Street Cemetery no longer exists. in 1909, the grave markers and the remains of those interred there were moved to Old Calvary Cemetery, in Section 4B. The written histories state that "In 1909, 5000 bodies were removed to Calvary Cemetery", but Archbishop Michael Augustine Corrigan wrote of the Eleventh Street grounds, (long before any bodies were moved in 1909) that "41,016 interments were made within its limits". It is anyone's guess where those remains are now. Probably still at Eleventh Street. SO, your ancestor's child's remains may have been moved to Calvary Cemetery, or if her family had an existing gravesite in the cemeteries surrounding Old St. Pat's, she may be buried there, OR-----well, her remains may still rest under the ground at Eleventh Street, for all we know. Archbishop Corrigan's excellent piece on the Catholic Cemeteries of New York may be found at this site: https://books.google.com/books?id=Dl9KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA369&lpg=PA369&dq=%22+THE+CATHOLIC+CEMETERIES+OF+NEW+YORK.%22&source=bl&ots=MDK4rSk42S&sig=1_4UJYoQtd6hfxGN0z-Hc2XVpuo&hl=en&ei=xuTgTKPMPI-t8AaHq4wV&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=%22%20THE%20CATHOLIC%20CEMETERIES%20OF%20NEW%20YORK.%22&f=false I have no idea if this URL will work properly--copy and paste it into your browser window and give it a try! Good Luck! Jim Garrity -----Original Message----- >From: Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen <gailjmom@gmail.com> >Sent: Aug 29, 2017 1:38 PM >To: "nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com" <nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com>, "nyc-roots@rootsweb.com" <nyc-roots@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [NYC-ROOTS] UPDATE: Question regarding interments at St Patricks from 1843 > >For those who expressed interest in the outcome of my original post, I >contacted Old Saint Patrick's Cemetery 212-226-8075 and was told that all >cemetery records for this cemetery are held at Calvary Cemetery in case you >run into this situation in your tree. >I called Calvary Cemetery 718-786-8000 and found out that these records are >considered archival records and that the archivalist does not work on a >regular schedule. I will need to send a snail mail request for this >information. There is no cost for this, it is just that it requires a by >hand look at the records by this certain person who has a limited schedule. >I was told the records are not detailed or complete so I may never find the >answer as to the burial location but most likely they are still at Old >Saint Patrick's Cemetery. >Gail > > >~ Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen ~ > >On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:21 PM, Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen < >gailjmom@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I found a record on familysearch indicating a burial at St Patrick's of an >> ancestor's child. >> If I want to call to locate the current burial location where do I start? >> I am asking because I know of the history of catholic burials which >> originally were on Manhattan Island only to be disinterred and moved to >> Calvary Cemetery. >> Do I start with St Patrick's and if so what was the location of St >> Patrick's in 1843? If so how would I find the correct phone number? If I >> should start someplace else, where would that be? >> TIA, >> Gail Jorgensen >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NYC-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> > ​Jim, > ​Thanks for your reply and information!! I am glad that my question has prompted this informative thread. I found my ancestor's information on FamilySearch. This is what I found: Name – (No First Name) (Male) Ludwig (Probably an infant) Death - 25 Jun 1843, Manhattan, New York, New York, USA At 25 Ave B. Birthplace - New York Cemetery - St. Patrick's Father's Name - Philip Ludwig​ I ​ do NOT think at this point in time that there would already be a family grave. The family arrived and set up home and work initially as bakers in the Alphabet part of Manhattan and I believe turned out to be successful in their community​. Unless one of their other children died young, the remainder of the family had huge graves and monuments at both Calvary and Saint John. I am working on a first name for this lad. I have church records from MHR showing baptisms during the 1840's but because of 2 moves during the past year, I can't put my hands on them right now. More later, Gail > The only records that anyone has been able to find are a few range maps of > the cemeteries surrounding the church, and several small notebooks books > that apparently were compiled sometime in the early 1900's, LONG after any > burials were still taking place at the cathedral cemetery. these books note > the locations of gravesites that had grave markers placed upon them that > were readable at the time that these books were created. For the most part, > the notebooks only have family surnames and possible burial dates listed > that were copied directly off the grave markers, and the range locations of > the graves. > > In your case, a FURTHER complication to your quest is that your ancestor's > child died in 1843. By roughly 1833, the cemeteries surrounding Old St. > Patrick's were completely filled, and no "new" burials were said to have > taken place there. This is not entirely accurate, though. If a family had > an existing grave plot in the cemetery, "new" burials could add to those > already there. So where were Manhattan Catholics buried after 1833? St. > Patrick's and the Diocese of New York opened an "annex" to St. Patrick's > cemetery at Eleventh Street and First Avenue. This was a small plot of > land, but an astounding number of burials was said to be performed there > between 1833 and roughly 1848, when Calvary Cemetery in Queens first opened > its gates. Some burials still took place at Eleventh Street into the early > 1850's, regardless of what the stated policy of the diocese was. > > Unfortunately, the Eleventh Street Cemetery no longer exists. in 1909, the > grave markers and the remains of those interred there were moved to Old > Calvary Cemetery, in Section 4B. The written histories state that "In 1909, > 5000 bodies were removed to Calvary Cemetery", but Archbishop Michael > Augustine Corrigan wrote of the Eleventh Street grounds, (long before any > bodies were moved in 1909) that "41,016 interments were made within its > limits". It is anyone's guess where those remains are now. Probably still > at Eleventh Street. > > SO, your ancestor's child's remains may have been moved to Calvary > Cemetery, or if her family had an existing gravesite in the cemeteries > surrounding Old St. Pat's, she may be buried there, OR-----well, her > remains may still rest under the ground at Eleventh Street, for all we > know. Archbishop Corrigan's excellent piece on the Catholic Cemeteries of > New York may be found at this site: > > https://books.google.com/books?id=Dl9KAAAAYAAJ&pg= > PA369&lpg=PA369&dq=%22+THE+CATHOLIC+CEMETERIES+OF+NEW+ > YORK.%22&source=bl&ots=MDK4rSk42S&sig=1_4UJYoQtd6hfxGN0z-Hc2XVpuo&hl= > en&ei=xuTgTKPMPI-t8AaHq4wV&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v= > onepage&q=%22%20THE%20CATHOLIC%20CEMETERIES%20OF%20NEW%20YORK.%22&f=false > > I have no idea if this URL will work properly--copy and paste it into your > browser window and give it a try! > > Good Luck! > > Jim Garrity > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen <gailjmom@gmail.com> > >Sent: Aug 29, 2017 1:38 PM > >To: "nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com" <nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com>, " > nyc-roots@rootsweb.com" <nyc-roots@rootsweb.com> > >Subject: [NYC-ROOTS] UPDATE: Question regarding interments at St Patricks > from 1843 > > > >For those who expressed interest in the outcome of my original post, I > >contacted Old Saint Patrick's Cemetery 212-226-8075 and was told that all > >cemetery records for this cemetery are held at Calvary Cemetery in case > you > >run into this situation in your tree. > >I called Calvary Cemetery 718-786-8000 and found out that these records > are > >considered archival records and that the archivalist does not work on a > >regular schedule. I will need to send a snail mail request for this > >information. There is no cost for this, it is just that it requires a by > >hand look at the records by this certain person who has a limited > schedule. > >I was told the records are not detailed or complete so I may never find > the > >answer as to the burial location but most likely they are still at Old > >Saint Patrick's Cemetery. > >Gail > > > > > >~ Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen ~ > > > >On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:21 PM, Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen < > >gailjmom@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> I found a record on familysearch indicating a burial at St Patrick's of > an > >> ancestor's child. > >> If I want to call to locate the current burial location where do I > start? > >> I am asking because I know of the history of catholic burials which > >> originally were on Manhattan Island only to be disinterred and moved to > >> Calvary Cemetery. > >> Do I start with St Patrick's and if so what was the location of St > >> Patrick's in 1843? If so how would I find the correct phone number? If I > >> should start someplace else, where would that be? > >> TIA, > >> Gail Jorgensen > >> > > > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NYC-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Jim, This is a very crazy problem/situation, but a lot of very interesting information in that link! Thanks! Frances ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Qui vit sans folie n'est pas si sage qu'il croit. ~Francois de La Rochefoucault ________________________________ From: NYC-ROOTS <nyc-roots-bounces+francebrun=hotmail.com@rootsweb.com> on behalf of Jim Garrity <jimgarrity@earthlink.net> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 5:22 PM To: nyc-roots@rootsweb.com; nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com; nyc-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NYC-ROOTS] UPDATE: Question regarding interments at St Patricks from 1843 Hello Gail, I have done some fairly extensive historical research down at Old St. Patrick's Cathedral, and the question of burials there has always been of primary interest to me. Just for the record, and before my long spiel, what was the child's family name, please? Unfortunately, the answer to your question is fairly complex. The only records that anyone has been able to find are a few range maps of the cemeteries surrounding the church, and several small notebooks books that apparently were compiled sometime in the early 1900's, LONG after any burials were still taking place at the cathedral cemetery. these books note the locations of gravesites that had grave markers placed upon them that were readable at the time that these books were created. For the most part, the notebooks only have family surnames and possible burial dates listed that were copied directly off the grave markers, and the range locations of the graves. In your case, a FURTHER complication to your quest is that your ancestor's child died in 1843. By roughly 1833, the cemeteries surrounding Old St. Patrick's were completely filled, and no "new" burials were said to have taken place there. This is not entirely accurate, though. If a family had an existing grave plot in the cemetery, "new" burials could add to those already there. So where were Manhattan Catholics buried after 1833? St. Patrick's and the Diocese of New York opened an "annex" to St. Patrick's cemetery at Eleventh Street and First Avenue. This was a small plot of land, but an astounding number of burials was said to be performed there between 1833 and roughly 1848, when Calvary Cemetery in Queens first opened its gates. Some burials still took place at Eleventh Street into the early 1850's, regardless of what the stated policy of the diocese was. Unfortunately, the Eleventh Street Cemetery no longer exists. in 1909, the grave markers and the remains of those interred there were moved to Old Calvary Cemetery, in Section 4B. The written histories state that "In 1909, 5000 bodies were removed to Calvary Cemetery", but Archbishop Michael Augustine Corrigan wrote of the Eleventh Street grounds, (long before any bodies were moved in 1909) that "41,016 interments were made within its limits". It is anyone's guess where those remains are now. Probably still at Eleventh Street. SO, your ancestor's child's remains may have been moved to Calvary Cemetery, or if her family had an existing gravesite in the cemeteries surrounding Old St. Pat's, she may be buried there, OR-----well, her remains may still rest under the ground at Eleventh Street, for all we know. Archbishop Corrigan's excellent piece on the Catholic Cemeteries of New York may be found at this site: https://books.google.com/books?id=Dl9KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA369&lpg=PA369&dq=%22+THE+CATHOLIC+CEMETERIES+OF+NEW+YORK.%22&source=bl&ots=MDK4rSk42S&sig=1_4UJYoQtd6hfxGN0z-Hc2XVpuo&hl=en&ei=xuTgTKPMPI-t8AaHq4wV&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=%22%20THE%20CATHOLIC%20CEMETERIES%20OF%20NEW%20YORK.%22&f=false [https://books.google.com/books/content?id=Dl9KAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE72Kmt4G80-HXW9nd6jiABc3pRcIKTdDqYoibc7qEVv0Vnq4Kth-XWhwHI9YgUAx__lmOyqetmWIpFqTwnroAFSPwoaDRWI5CsWHMtw2LPtlNqLc43kB2zok0qBn9VUW9p9FMQhl]<https://books.google.com/books?id=Dl9KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA369&lpg=PA369&dq=%22+THE+CATHOLIC+CEMETERIES+OF+NEW+YORK.%22&source=bl&ots=MDK4rSk42S&sig=1_4UJYoQtd6hfxGN0z-Hc2XVpuo&hl=en&ei=xuTgTKPMPI-t8AaHq4wV&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=%22%20THE%20CATHOLIC%20CEMETERIES%20OF%20NEW%20YORK.%22&f=false> Historical Records and Studies<https://books.google.com/books?id=Dl9KAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA369&lpg=PA369&dq=%22+THE+CATHOLIC+CEMETERIES+OF+NEW+YORK.%22&source=bl&ots=MDK4rSk42S&sig=1_4UJYoQtd6hfxGN0z-Hc2XVpuo&hl=en&ei=xuTgTKPMPI-t8AaHq4wV&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=%22%20THE%20CATHOLIC%20CEMETERIES%20OF%20NEW%20YORK.%22&f=false> books.google.com / I have no idea if this URL will work properly--copy and paste it into your browser window and give it a try! Good Luck! Jim Garrity -----Original Message----- >From: Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen <gailjmom@gmail.com> >Sent: Aug 29, 2017 1:38 PM >To: "nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com" <nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com>, "nyc-roots@rootsweb.com" <nyc-roots@rootsweb.com> >Subject: [NYC-ROOTS] UPDATE: Question regarding interments at St Patricks from 1843 > >For those who expressed interest in the outcome of my original post, I >contacted Old Saint Patrick's Cemetery 212-226-8075 and was told that all >cemetery records for this cemetery are held at Calvary Cemetery in case you >run into this situation in your tree. >I called Calvary Cemetery 718-786-8000 and found out that these records are >considered archival records and that the archivalist does not work on a >regular schedule. I will need to send a snail mail request for this >information. There is no cost for this, it is just that it requires a by >hand look at the records by this certain person who has a limited schedule. >I was told the records are not detailed or complete so I may never find the >answer as to the burial location but most likely they are still at Old >Saint Patrick's Cemetery. >Gail > > >~ Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen ~ > >On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 10:21 PM, Gail Schinnerer Jorgensen < >gailjmom@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I found a record on familysearch indicating a burial at St Patrick's of an >> ancestor's child. >> If I want to call to locate the current burial location where do I start? >> I am asking because I know of the history of catholic burials which >> originally were on Manhattan Island only to be disinterred and moved to >> Calvary Cemetery. >> Do I start with St Patrick's and if so what was the location of St >> Patrick's in 1843? If so how would I find the correct phone number? If I >> should start someplace else, where would that be? >> TIA, >> Gail Jorgensen >> > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NYC-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NYC-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message