Go raibh maith agat / Thank you, Judy. Pleased to report it's available now. I'll contact you off-list with info on where you can get it. Please watch your spam folder. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Gearóid / Jerry ________________________________ From: judy christopher <ajuntasc@gmail.com> To: ny-irish@rootsweb.com Cc: irish-american@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, September 24, 2010 11:55:19 AM Subject: Re: [NY-IRISH] clann, treibh, agus 'sept' / clan, tribe, and sept I have just read the excerpt from your book on the O'Briens. I am a descendent of an O'Brien (royal or not?). I will buy this book when it is published. Thank you for sharing the beginning with all on this list. Judy Christopher (nee O'Bien of Kilmallick, Kilcruaig, Glenroe/Ballyorgan/Kilflyn County Limerick) On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> wrote: > A chairde, > > I just finished writing a book on the ancient Celtic ancestry of the > O'Brien > family. I wasn't far into my writing when I ran into the question of which > terminology to use in order to keep my writing accurate in a Celtic, rather > than > Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-American, context. Here's where I came out - an > extract > from my chapter on Genealogical Terminology in Irish. I hope you find it > helpful. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Gearóid / Jerry > > > > Treibhand 'Tribe' > > As you’ll see in this book, Ireland was tribal in government, law, and > custom > until the 17th century. All rights, privileges, and responsibilities were > shared by members of a clan or tribe. Every aspect of an individual’s life > was > touched by his or her identity as a member of that clan and tribe. > > > Today, many people of Irish descent around the world are no longer used to > thinking in that way. Many are surprised or uneasy or even offended to > hear or > see the word 'tribe' used in an Irish context given that it sometimes has > negative connotations in English. As a result, some authors go to great > lengths > to avoid the term. For example, I recently saw a particular Irish tribe > described in print as "a dynastic group of related septs." Talk about > being > afraid to say simply "X is an Irish tribe"! > > > Accurate history is not always flattering to a modern sensibility. The > Irish > engaged in human sacrifice in the pre-Christian period and were ritual > head-hunters until the 17th century. If one day we were foolish enough to > attempt to re-write our history as a form of propaganda, we would have much > bigger image problems than the mere fact that Irish culture provided > extremely > important roles for families, clans, and tribes. > > The word for ‘tribe’ in Irish is treibh, and it has no negative > associations. > (How could it in a tribally-based culture?) Cognate with the English word > 'tribe,' treibh comes down to us separately from the same Indo-European > root. > Traditionally in Irish Gaelic culture, if you know your genealogy including > your > clann or clanna ('clan' or 'clans') and treibh ortreibheanna ('tribe' > or'tribes'), you are noble. If you don't, you're a bodach, a churl. > > > In this book I use the word 'tribe' as treibh is used in Irish - a large > kinship > group made up of a number of smaller kinship groups, which are often called > 'clans.' > > > > Clannand 'Clan' > > It should be noted that the word clann is the origin of the modern English > word > 'clan.' Its original meaning is 'children.' But it has also been used in > Irish > from an early period to mean 'clan.' Today, in Modern Irish, it can mean > 'children,' 'clan,' or 'family,' depending upon its context. > > > Oddly, like the word 'tribe,' the word 'clan' has had a troubled history in > modern Irish scholarship. Some Irish scholars have avoided use of the word > altogether, preferring instead to use the word sept to describe Irish > kinship > groups. Sept is a term borrowed from English agriculture. In the 16th > century, > the English used it to mean a 'paddock.' Lexicographers believe that the > word > sept ultimately derives from the Latin word septum, which means a 'hedge' > or > 'fence.' I'm told that it was first used in genealogy in Scotland, > although > I've seen recently that some Scots are now abandoning the term in favor of > "surname" and blaming the Irish for its introduction! > > > The word sept is usually used to mean a kinship group which is larger than > a > single family yet smaller than a tribe. As a result, it's sometimes used > to > mean sloinne (as defined above, this is a distinct kindred which bears a > particular surname), and sometimes used to mean clann. Today, just before > I sat > down to write this, I even saw the word used to describe a very large tribe > - > the Dál gCais! It's apparent that the word sept has become so vague in > meaning > that it's lost its usefulness as a genealogical term. > > As far as I can tell, the scholars who originally used the word 'sept' were > trying to avoid confusion between modern Scottish clans and earlier Irish > clans, > which had a different structure. This is a laudable objective, but the > method > chosen strikes me to some degree as overkill, for the following reasons: > > We experience no confusion when applying the word 'clan' to other kinship > groups > around the word, whether Asian, African, Middle Eastern, Aboriginal, or > Native > American. Nor do we expect that such clans must use exactly the same > structure > as a Scottish clan in order to earn use of the word. > > When a distinction has to be made, there's no reason why we can't just say > "Irish clan" or "Scottish clan," just as we might say "Japanese clan" or > "Bedouin clan." > > Irish has a huge vocabulary, but if we were to cede the use of every Irish > Gaelic word shared with Scottish Gaelic, we'd have little left. This seems > a > high price to pay for the honor of having a daughter-language, even one as > excellent as Scottish Gaelic. > > > Further, the word clann has been specifically used in Irish to mean a > 'clan' > (i.e., a significantly-sized kinship group) for over a millennium, > including in > such important early Irish documents as the Brehon Laws. This usage dates > to > centuries before the word clann appears in Scottish documents, or the word > 'clan' appears in English documents. > > > In other words, why introduce the confusion of a Latin or English word > meaning a > 'partition' or a 'fence' or a 'hedge' or a 'paddock' merely to avoid a > perfectly > good Gaelic word (or words) already long in use and better suited to the > task? > As you've seen in this section, we have a complete (and, in fact, more > extensive) genealogical vocabulary of our own in Irish Gaelic. I don't see > any > harm in borrowing from the vocabularies of Roman or English agriculture. > But > it's not necessary. > ====NY-Irish Mailing List==== > Don't forget to check out the NY-Irish mailing list website. Also, > check/add your NY-Irish surnames on the Surname Registry: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYIrishList/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NY-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Judy Christopher ====NY-Irish Mailing List==== Don't forget to check out the NY-Irish mailing list website. Also, check/add your NY-Irish surnames on the Surname Registry: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYIrishList/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NY-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message