A chairde, I just finished writing a book on the ancient Celtic ancestry of the O'Brien family. I wasn't far into my writing when I ran into the question of which terminology to use in order to keep my writing accurate in a Celtic, rather than Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-American, context. Here's where I came out - an extract from my chapter on Genealogical Terminology in Irish. I hope you find it helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, Gearóid / Jerry Treibhand 'Tribe' As you’ll see in this book, Ireland was tribal in government, law, and custom until the 17th century. All rights, privileges, and responsibilities were shared by members of a clan or tribe. Every aspect of an individual’s life was touched by his or her identity as a member of that clan and tribe. Today, many people of Irish descent around the world are no longer used to thinking in that way. Many are surprised or uneasy or even offended to hear or see the word 'tribe' used in an Irish context given that it sometimes has negative connotations in English. As a result, some authors go to great lengths to avoid the term. For example, I recently saw a particular Irish tribe described in print as "a dynastic group of related septs." Talk about being afraid to say simply "X is an Irish tribe"! Accurate history is not always flattering to a modern sensibility. The Irish engaged in human sacrifice in the pre-Christian period and were ritual head-hunters until the 17th century. If one day we were foolish enough to attempt to re-write our history as a form of propaganda, we would have much bigger image problems than the mere fact that Irish culture provided extremely important roles for families, clans, and tribes. The word for ‘tribe’ in Irish is treibh, and it has no negative associations. (How could it in a tribally-based culture?) Cognate with the English word 'tribe,' treibh comes down to us separately from the same Indo-European root. Traditionally in Irish Gaelic culture, if you know your genealogy including your clann or clanna ('clan' or 'clans') and treibh ortreibheanna ('tribe' or'tribes'), you are noble. If you don't, you're a bodach, a churl. In this book I use the word 'tribe' as treibh is used in Irish - a large kinship group made up of a number of smaller kinship groups, which are often called 'clans.' Clannand 'Clan' It should be noted that the word clann is the origin of the modern English word 'clan.' Its original meaning is 'children.' But it has also been used in Irish from an early period to mean 'clan.' Today, in Modern Irish, it can mean 'children,' 'clan,' or 'family,' depending upon its context. Oddly, like the word 'tribe,' the word 'clan' has had a troubled history in modern Irish scholarship. Some Irish scholars have avoided use of the word altogether, preferring instead to use the word sept to describe Irish kinship groups. Sept is a term borrowed from English agriculture. In the 16th century, the English used it to mean a 'paddock.' Lexicographers believe that the word sept ultimately derives from the Latin word septum, which means a 'hedge' or 'fence.' I'm told that it was first used in genealogy in Scotland, although I've seen recently that some Scots are now abandoning the term in favor of "surname" and blaming the Irish for its introduction! The word sept is usually used to mean a kinship group which is larger than a single family yet smaller than a tribe. As a result, it's sometimes used to mean sloinne (as defined above, this is a distinct kindred which bears a particular surname), and sometimes used to mean clann. Today, just before I sat down to write this, I even saw the word used to describe a very large tribe - the Dál gCais! It's apparent that the word sept has become so vague in meaning that it's lost its usefulness as a genealogical term. As far as I can tell, the scholars who originally used the word 'sept' were trying to avoid confusion between modern Scottish clans and earlier Irish clans, which had a different structure. This is a laudable objective, but the method chosen strikes me to some degree as overkill, for the following reasons: We experience no confusion when applying the word 'clan' to other kinship groups around the word, whether Asian, African, Middle Eastern, Aboriginal, or Native American. Nor do we expect that such clans must use exactly the same structure as a Scottish clan in order to earn use of the word. When a distinction has to be made, there's no reason why we can't just say "Irish clan" or "Scottish clan," just as we might say "Japanese clan" or "Bedouin clan." Irish has a huge vocabulary, but if we were to cede the use of every Irish Gaelic word shared with Scottish Gaelic, we'd have little left. This seems a high price to pay for the honor of having a daughter-language, even one as excellent as Scottish Gaelic. Further, the word clann has been specifically used in Irish to mean a 'clan' (i.e., a significantly-sized kinship group) for over a millennium, including in such important early Irish documents as the Brehon Laws. This usage dates to centuries before the word clann appears in Scottish documents, or the word 'clan' appears in English documents. In other words, why introduce the confusion of a Latin or English word meaning a 'partition' or a 'fence' or a 'hedge' or a 'paddock' merely to avoid a perfectly good Gaelic word (or words) already long in use and better suited to the task? As you've seen in this section, we have a complete (and, in fact, more extensive) genealogical vocabulary of our own in Irish Gaelic. I don't see any harm in borrowing from the vocabularies of Roman or English agriculture. But it's not necessary.

I have just read the excerpt from your book on the O'Briens. I am a descendent of an O'Brien (royal or not?). I will buy this book when it is published. Thank you for sharing the beginning with all on this list. Judy Christopher (nee O'Bien of Kilmallick, Kilcruaig, Glenroe/Ballyorgan/Kilflyn County Limerick) On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:33 PM, Jerry Kelly <jerrykelly@att.net> wrote: > A chairde, > > I just finished writing a book on the ancient Celtic ancestry of the > O'Brien > family. I wasn't far into my writing when I ran into the question of which > terminology to use in order to keep my writing accurate in a Celtic, rather > than > Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-American, context. Here's where I came out - an > extract > from my chapter on Genealogical Terminology in Irish. I hope you find it > helpful. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, > Gearóid / Jerry > > > > Treibhand 'Tribe' > > As you’ll see in this book, Ireland was tribal in government, law, and > custom > until the 17th century. All rights, privileges, and responsibilities were > shared by members of a clan or tribe. Every aspect of an individual’s life > was > touched by his or her identity as a member of that clan and tribe. > > > Today, many people of Irish descent around the world are no longer used to > thinking in that way. Many are surprised or uneasy or even offended to > hear or > see the word 'tribe' used in an Irish context given that it sometimes has > negative connotations in English. As a result, some authors go to great > lengths > to avoid the term. For example, I recently saw a particular Irish tribe > described in print as "a dynastic group of related septs." Talk about > being > afraid to say simply "X is an Irish tribe"! > > > Accurate history is not always flattering to a modern sensibility. The > Irish > engaged in human sacrifice in the pre-Christian period and were ritual > head-hunters until the 17th century. If one day we were foolish enough to > attempt to re-write our history as a form of propaganda, we would have much > bigger image problems than the mere fact that Irish culture provided > extremely > important roles for families, clans, and tribes. > > The word for ‘tribe’ in Irish is treibh, and it has no negative > associations. > (How could it in a tribally-based culture?) Cognate with the English word > 'tribe,' treibh comes down to us separately from the same Indo-European > root. > Traditionally in Irish Gaelic culture, if you know your genealogy including > your > clann or clanna ('clan' or 'clans') and treibh ortreibheanna ('tribe' > or'tribes'), you are noble. If you don't, you're a bodach, a churl. > > > In this book I use the word 'tribe' as treibh is used in Irish - a large > kinship > group made up of a number of smaller kinship groups, which are often called > 'clans.' > > > > Clannand 'Clan' > > It should be noted that the word clann is the origin of the modern English > word > 'clan.' Its original meaning is 'children.' But it has also been used in > Irish > from an early period to mean 'clan.' Today, in Modern Irish, it can mean > 'children,' 'clan,' or 'family,' depending upon its context. > > > Oddly, like the word 'tribe,' the word 'clan' has had a troubled history in > modern Irish scholarship. Some Irish scholars have avoided use of the word > altogether, preferring instead to use the word sept to describe Irish > kinship > groups. Sept is a term borrowed from English agriculture. In the 16th > century, > the English used it to mean a 'paddock.' Lexicographers believe that the > word > sept ultimately derives from the Latin word septum, which means a 'hedge' > or > 'fence.' I'm told that it was first used in genealogy in Scotland, > although > I've seen recently that some Scots are now abandoning the term in favor of > "surname" and blaming the Irish for its introduction! > > > The word sept is usually used to mean a kinship group which is larger than > a > single family yet smaller than a tribe. As a result, it's sometimes used > to > mean sloinne (as defined above, this is a distinct kindred which bears a > particular surname), and sometimes used to mean clann. Today, just before > I sat > down to write this, I even saw the word used to describe a very large tribe > - > the Dál gCais! It's apparent that the word sept has become so vague in > meaning > that it's lost its usefulness as a genealogical term. > > As far as I can tell, the scholars who originally used the word 'sept' were > trying to avoid confusion between modern Scottish clans and earlier Irish > clans, > which had a different structure. This is a laudable objective, but the > method > chosen strikes me to some degree as overkill, for the following reasons: > > We experience no confusion when applying the word 'clan' to other kinship > groups > around the word, whether Asian, African, Middle Eastern, Aboriginal, or > Native > American. Nor do we expect that such clans must use exactly the same > structure > as a Scottish clan in order to earn use of the word. > > When a distinction has to be made, there's no reason why we can't just say > "Irish clan" or "Scottish clan," just as we might say "Japanese clan" or > "Bedouin clan." > > Irish has a huge vocabulary, but if we were to cede the use of every Irish > Gaelic word shared with Scottish Gaelic, we'd have little left. This seems > a > high price to pay for the honor of having a daughter-language, even one as > excellent as Scottish Gaelic. > > > Further, the word clann has been specifically used in Irish to mean a > 'clan' > (i.e., a significantly-sized kinship group) for over a millennium, > including in > such important early Irish documents as the Brehon Laws. This usage dates > to > centuries before the word clann appears in Scottish documents, or the word > 'clan' appears in English documents. > > > In other words, why introduce the confusion of a Latin or English word > meaning a > 'partition' or a 'fence' or a 'hedge' or a 'paddock' merely to avoid a > perfectly > good Gaelic word (or words) already long in use and better suited to the > task? > As you've seen in this section, we have a complete (and, in fact, more > extensive) genealogical vocabulary of our own in Irish Gaelic. I don't see > any > harm in borrowing from the vocabularies of Roman or English agriculture. > But > it's not necessary. > ====NY-Irish Mailing List==== > Don't forget to check out the NY-Irish mailing list website. Also, > check/add your NY-Irish surnames on the Surname Registry: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/NYIrishList/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NY-IRISH-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Judy Christopher