HI: Nope. I'm not quite sure what that is. I live in Morehead City,NC and I am happy to hear from you anyway. Chuck ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat McCarthy" <patmc@erinet.com> To: <NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, July 15, 2004 12:37 AM Subject: Re: [NYCENTRAL] > You're not the Chuck Harris that's taking the ICL writing course, are you? > Pat McCarthy > ICL Instructor > Author of 5 YA biographies, plus > The Thirteen Colonies... Enslow Apr.2004 > Canada Enslow May 2004 > The Dominican Republic Enslow Aug.2004 > Famous Union Generals and Leaders of the North Enslow Sept. 2004 > Famous Confederate Generals and Leaders of the South Enslow Sept. 2004 > > > > ==== NY-CENTRA Mailing List ==== > NY-CENTRA-L is a mailing list for researching the central NY counties of: Broome, Cayuga, Chenango, Cortland, Delaware, Madison, Oneida, Onondaga, > Oswego, Otsego, Tioga and Tompkins. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

> > > The probate and will of Sylvester Culver of Genoa, Cayuga Co, New York > who died in 1864 can be found in Volume P of the Record of Wills > Cayuga County (pg 628) which can be obtained through the family > history library (FHL 853225, I think) > > The following surviving children are listed as heirs: > > Ambrose Culver of Locke (Cayuga Co) > Theron R. Culver of Minnesota > Myron Culver of Horner, Wisconsin > George Culver of St. Paul Minnesota > Samuel Culver at or near St. Paul Minnesota > Maria (?) Jacobs w/ of Israel Jacobs, > Sylvester Culver, > Harriet M. Boyer of Lansing, Tompkins Co. New York > Louisa Boyer w of John Boyer of Genoa, Cayuga Co., New York > > Teresa Culver (tbc8@cornell.edu) > > >

Sorry Margaret if I did not make myself clear as to whom I was questioning as to their veracity and content and charging for their content. My questions were directed toward the website listed as http://www.linkline.com/personal/xymox/ which purports themselves as an accurate listing of "America's First Families," who directed their solicitation for e-business to the New York Rootsweb email lists. I have yet to hear from them, but as you can see, we already have one genealogist who responded that their content is riddled with errors... Just a caution before one subscribes. Your guidelines are of course correct, documentation is most important, Linda Dodge ----- Original Message ----- From: "MScheffler" <mscheffl@twcny.rr.com> To: <NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 2004 10:13 AM Subject: [NYCENTRAL] Ancestors online > I'm not sure who you are addressing your email to, but ANY donated > databases as well as my carefully researched one can have errors. > > So for Ancestry/World Connect (which I am "guessing" you might be > referring to) or any other shared database, use it for clues -- yes there is > "some" useful well documented free information -- and document for yourself > before simply adding what one finds to one's own. > > One useful situation is to find a good email address for a person who > appears to have good information, and write to them. I have had people find > my information on World Connect, write to me thanking me for my carefully > documented information, and offering more, in a few instances information > and in one instance pictures I might never have found otherwise. > > I personally do not buy those FTM pedigree cds because I have not found > them worth the money. I have yet to see one that has sources, but there > might be some databases with sources if one can search ones a library owns > and not have to buy them. FTM does have some very useful cds containing > standard genealogical books and periodicals. > > I do wish you luck with your research. It is best not to ignore carte > blanch sources of possible help on those sticky lines one cannot find > through vital records and other primary sources. Clues tend to turn up in > surprising places at times. > > Margaret Scheffler > > > > ==== NY-CENTRA Mailing List ==== > Need to reach Colleen, the discussion coordinator? Send her an email at <ladyaudris@earthlink.net>. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

Thanks Elaine for confirming my "bad feeling" for this website. Hope they are sufficiently exposed! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: <ElaineDecker@cs.com> To: <NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [NYCENTRAL] Founders Of Early American Families > In a message dated 7/19/04 11:14:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gemini615@earthlink.net writes: > > << Red, White and Blue all over the place, have connections way back on almost > every line, and very proud of my ancestry, yet your website omits my > ancestors! And we don't need to pay some purportedly elitist website to > prove our ancestry! Please explain why I should pay to join your website? >> > > Don't feel bad if you are left off. A lot of my ancestors ARE on that site > and a lot of it is a bunch of bad research. Therefore, people are going to > copy all this wrong data thinking they are dealing with reputable documented > researchers such as the DAR. Some of my genealogy that people have posted on > there would be laughable if it weren't so sad....And I have the REAL research and > documentation to prove it and I still live in the area where it all happened. > I wrote to the people in charge of this web site asking why they allow bad > research on their site and then charge for it and I never received a response. > > > ==== NY-CENTRA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send your message to <NY-CENTRA-L-request@rootsweb.com> for individual list messages; <NY-CENTRA-D-request@rootsweb.com> for digest messages. Then put the word unsubscribe in the subject line and send your message. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

In a message dated 7/20/04 6:31:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ozlynn@chartermi.net writes: << Were you under the impression you were writing to "Founders of Early American Families"? >> No.

I'm not sure who you are addressing your email to, but ANY donated databases as well as my carefully researched one can have errors. So for Ancestry/World Connect (which I am "guessing" you might be referring to) or any other shared database, use it for clues -- yes there is "some" useful well documented free information -- and document for yourself before simply adding what one finds to one's own. One useful situation is to find a good email address for a person who appears to have good information, and write to them. I have had people find my information on World Connect, write to me thanking me for my carefully documented information, and offering more, in a few instances information and in one instance pictures I might never have found otherwise. I personally do not buy those FTM pedigree cds because I have not found them worth the money. I have yet to see one that has sources, but there might be some databases with sources if one can search ones a library owns and not have to buy them. FTM does have some very useful cds containing standard genealogical books and periodicals. I do wish you luck with your research. It is best not to ignore carte blanch sources of possible help on those sticky lines one cannot find through vital records and other primary sources. Clues tend to turn up in surprising places at times. Margaret Scheffler

Hello Ms. Dodge: Since your message of Monday July 17th dated 8:11 PM was to this mailing list I am replying to the list and although it is directed to you I am sure most who read your message is entitled to the reply as you have made statements that are incorrect. First of all let me state that the Sons and Daughters of America's First Families is a National Genealogy Society formed in 1998 and has been a fixture on the internet these few years. ALL societies have different qualifications for membership and cover set times of our history. Membership within each society must qualify according to those rules. For instance; "General Order of the Founders and Patriots of America" admission is only by direct descent in the male line from one's father , or from one's mather's father, to a founding ancestor who have must been living in one of the original thirteen colonies prior to 1657, and in the same direct line there must have been participation in some form on the side of the colonists during the American Revolution. The year 1657 was fixed in 1896, when the Order was established, as a period being a half century after the first permanent English settlement in Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607......This Society is most difficult to qualify for and membership is highly prized. Ancestors here after 1657 would not qualify for membership. "National Society Of The Colonial Dames of America..To be eliigible for membership, a woman must be descended from someone who was born by 1749 and resided in one of the thirteen colonies by 1750, and who rendered efficent service to the country before 1776. "The National Society Colonial Dames XVII Century" Open to women who is the lineal descendant of an ancestor who lived and served prior to 1701 in one of the Original Colonies. I am unable to list all the Societies within this post but this will answer some of your questions Our Society America's First Families formed 1998 in open to ANYONE who had an ancestor who lived in the American Colonies prior to 1676. No service to the Colonies is required. Now to answer some of your statements.............America's First Families web site is free to anyone who wishes to access any of our pages or the site itself. No one pays us to list anything. You mention a date of 1657...that is not true. We post lists of early 1600's Ancestors within our 1600s Ancestors Data Base regardless of when they lived here even if was after 1676. Many Societies and Reference Works are listed Many of your ancestors are on the 1600s Ancestors Data Base. If they are not there it is because we have not as yet found proven lines. Every one there does have lines and since this is a work in progress new people and facts are updated aprox. every 3 to 4 months. The Data Base will easily handle over 100,000 1600s Ancestors. You do not pay anything to access any of our pages. Who ever told you that is uninformed. The 1600's Ancestors Data Base now contains over 28,000 people with proven lines (including 21 Ancestors with the DODGE Surname).......First Families indicates those people here before 1676 and has nothing to do with their social position within the Colonies. You need to enter the Ancestors Data Base Information page at the URL below. This will tell you what the Data Base is and what the reference codes are and how to use them. URL for 1600s Ancestors Data Base is http://www.firstfamilies.org/db/dbinfo.htm Allow a few monents for the pages to download as some of these are large. All in all your statements on America's First Families web site were uninformed. Have you ever visited the web sites? The very best to you and yours. Harold Oliver Director America's First Families

Were you under the impression you were writing to "Founders of Early American Families"? Because you are writing to the NY CENTRAL mailing list which doesn't have a website posting ancestors that I know of. ----- Original Message ----- From: <ElaineDecker@cs.com> To: <NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Re: [NYCENTRAL] Founders Of Early American Families > In a message dated 7/19/04 11:14:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gemini615@earthlink.net writes: > > << Red, White and Blue all over the place, have connections way back on almost > every line, and very proud of my ancestry, yet your website omits my > ancestors! And we don't need to pay some purportedly elitist website to > prove our ancestry! Please explain why I should pay to join your website? >> > > Don't feel bad if you are left off. A lot of my ancestors ARE on that site > and a lot of it is a bunch of bad research. Therefore, people are going to > copy all this wrong data thinking they are dealing with reputable documented > researchers such as the DAR. Some of my genealogy that people have posted on > there would be laughable if it weren't so sad....And I have the REAL research and > documentation to prove it and I still live in the area where it all happened. > I wrote to the people in charge of this web site asking why they allow bad > research on their site and then charge for it and I never received a response. > > > ==== NY-CENTRA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send your message to <NY-CENTRA-L-request@rootsweb.com> for individual list messages; <NY-CENTRA-D-request@rootsweb.com> for digest messages. Then put the word unsubscribe in the subject line and send your message. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 >

In a message dated 7/19/04 11:14:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gemini615@earthlink.net writes: << Red, White and Blue all over the place, have connections way back on almost every line, and very proud of my ancestry, yet your website omits my ancestors! And we don't need to pay some purportedly elitist website to prove our ancestry! Please explain why I should pay to join your website? >> Don't feel bad if you are left off. A lot of my ancestors ARE on that site and a lot of it is a bunch of bad research. Therefore, people are going to copy all this wrong data thinking they are dealing with reputable documented researchers such as the DAR. Some of my genealogy that people have posted on there would be laughable if it weren't so sad....And I have the REAL research and documentation to prove it and I still live in the area where it all happened. I wrote to the people in charge of this web site asking why they allow bad research on their site and then charge for it and I never received a response.

Thank you for your informational email, but I'm not sure about your entire website and how you get your information other than hard-earned information from researchers who pay money to donate their information to you? I have ancestors who arrived from England in 1630 with the Massachusetts Bay Colony and they are not mentioned here. They played a very important part in the founding and continuation of freedom in this country! Not sure why your cut off date is 1657, as another branch of my family arrived in 1663, and are not included, but perhaps I will find out why after reading your article mentioned below. Those who arrived in 1663 contributed greatly during the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and founded the Staten Island Ferry, and are united today through the actions of extended family members nationwide and overseas, but according to the guidelines of your website, they are not included because they got here five years later that your arbitrary cut-off date? What's up with that??? But again, maybe I'll find out when I read your article about your arbitrary cut-off date. Basically I and mine are Red, White and Blue all over the place, have connections way back on almost every line, and very proud of my ancestry, yet your website omits my ancestors! And we don't need to pay some purportedly elitist website to prove our ancestry! Please explain why I should pay to join your website? Thank you though for your website, but by charging money, you're not sharing, you are profiting on other's hard work, Linda J. Dodge ----- Original Message ----- From: "First Families" <firstfamilies@linkline.com> To: <NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 19, 2004 3:54 PM Subject: [NYCENTRAL] Founders Of Early American Families > Hello New York Researchers: > > We receive hundreds of messages each month for information on > early American Emigrants and some time ago we found a very > good article on the subject and thought we would share it with you. > > Titled.......Founders of Early American Families...Emigrants From Europe > 1607-1657. > > This is something all genealogists and researchers should read to have > a better understanding of what was happening here prior to 1657. > > We have posted the article on our web site at: > > http://www.linkline.com/personal/xymox/ > > Once you get there you will be looking for the link Family Pages Index which > you will enter. > > On the Family Pages Index enter FOUNDERS OF EARLY AMERICAN FAMILIES. > > For those of you who are AOL members you may have trouble connecting to > many pages that may come up with a message such as "Page Does Not Exist" > and you can cure that by using your browser feature of Copy and Paste the URL > to your browser and then enter from there. > > All pages contained within our web pages are free for viewing and study by > all interested > researchers. > > The very best to you and yours. > > Enjoy > > Harold Oliver > Director > America's First Families > > > ==== NY-CENTRA Mailing List ==== > Please avoid flaming (attacking) any single person or the group. This infraction will earn you immediate removal from the list. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

Hello New York Researchers: We receive hundreds of messages each month for information on early American Emigrants and some time ago we found a very good article on the subject and thought we would share it with you. Titled.......Founders of Early American Families...Emigrants From Europe 1607-1657. This is something all genealogists and researchers should read to have a better understanding of what was happening here prior to 1657. We have posted the article on our web site at: http://www.linkline.com/personal/xymox/ Once you get there you will be looking for the link Family Pages Index which you will enter. On the Family Pages Index enter FOUNDERS OF EARLY AMERICAN FAMILIES. For those of you who are AOL members you may have trouble connecting to many pages that may come up with a message such as "Page Does Not Exist" and you can cure that by using your browser feature of Copy and Paste the URL to your browser and then enter from there. All pages contained within our web pages are free for viewing and study by all interested researchers. The very best to you and yours. Enjoy Harold Oliver Director America's First Families

I'm not sure what counties you are but I have FRENCH in Cayuga co.NY Samuel french a son of Samuel F FRENCH and Martha ROGERS was probably born in Cayuga county or nearby in 1815 and married SOPHRONIA TRAVIS_ TRAVERS. (others have her as Van Schaick but his civil war record says she was a TRAVIS. married in 1834 in Locke,NY and had these children: Lydia 1836;married daniel robbins; Marquis De French 1838 married Sophia Leonard and Jennie Croft; William 1840; david 1847 married Della CUMMINGS ; Dexter 1852 married Helen walker; Frances 1854 married Celia Burton? or Lacey; Martha Jane 1856 married John Penird; Ella m 1860 married David Charles Stanton; george r 1849 died 1850. I also have Browns in tompkins co.NY Gilbert BROWN and Rachel Soles born in early 1800's had 3 sons that i know of John C 1827 married Martha FRENCH and Frederick 1824-5 married Eliza ?; Thomas 1826 married mary Shaff, The sons moved to tioga co pa by 1850 but the father probably moved to Onondaga co but have no further record of him or who his parents were , I'd really like to find out. In madison county I have JOHN WEST born 1778 and Polly HOLT born 1784 Their eldest son was Thomas West born 1804 who married Emily BALCH in 1826, they also moved to tioga co.Pa about 1830. i have more info if anyone is interested. chriswest@penn.com --- Christine Karns --- chriswest@penn.com --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

I too have family that moved through New York on their way to Minnesota. Asa Woodruff moved from CT to Canaan, Columbia Co., NY with his wife Betsey Darron and their child Brock Woodruff was born there in April 1816, along with several brothers and sisters (Betsey 1804, Lydia, Sarah,1802, Ann Eliza 1800, John Darron 1819, Corelius 1809, Chloe, Ruth, Daniel 1822, Henry, 1821, Margaret 1825). Some years later the family moved back to CT. Then Brock decided to move back to NY with his young bride Chloe Amanda Benedict. Their son Leroy Benedict Woodruff was born in Lysander, Ononodaga Co., NY. By 1857 the entire family is in Albert Lea, Freeborn Co., MN. Jo

1921 Souvenir of Finger Lakes brochure http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~springport/pictures87/1921souvenirweb/

You're not the Chuck Harris that's taking the ICL writing course, are you? Pat McCarthy ICL Instructor Author of 5 YA biographies, plus The Thirteen Colonies... Enslow Apr.2004 Canada Enslow May 2004 The Dominican Republic Enslow Aug.2004 Famous Union Generals and Leaders of the North Enslow Sept. 2004 Famous Confederate Generals and Leaders of the South Enslow Sept. 2004

In the period before 1820, a number of my Connecticut ancestors moved to the area around Hamilton, Madison Co., NY. Elnathan BEACH, from Stratford, Fairfield Co., CT, to Canaan Town, Columbia Co., NY (1790), to Hamilton, Madison Co., NY (1820). Somewhere along the way, he married Anna whose surname is supposed to be HUBBARD. I'm still searching for a record of the marriage and Anna's people. Elnathan's son was Lemuel E. BEACH. Elisha FULLER, from East Haddam, Middlesex Co., CT. [This line is Elisha(8), Elisha(7), Elisha(6), Matthias(5), Timothy(4), Samuel(3), Matthew(2), Edward(1) of the Mayflower]. Elisha's first wife was Rachel BRAINARD, of Chatham, Middlesex Co., CT, dau. of Stephen BRAINARD & Rachel DAY. Elisha was a town official of Hamilton in 1800 (History of Chenango and Madison Counties, New York), p. 859. Elisha's daughter was Laura FULLER who was the first wife of Lemuel BEACH. Nelson A. SMITH is somewhat of a mystery. He married Angeline BEACH, daughter of Lemuel & Laura (FULLER) BEACH. When he claimed land in Livingston Co., MI, in 1836, he stated on one claim that he was from Erie Co., NY, and on a second that he was from Madison Co., NY. His brother, Preston H. SMITH, had land in the same section of Marion Twp., Livingston Co., MI, in 1837, but by 1860, Preston, his family, and mother Althea SMITH were back in Hamilton Twp., Madison Co., NY. I'm still trying to find Nelson's father and Althea's maiden name. Jane Devlin Lake Orion, MI janedevlin@ameritech.net DUNHAM - WILCOX - TROTT - KIRK website Over 1800 data files for CT, MA, RI, NJ, NY & MI http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jdevlin/

HI: I have numerous Surnames in Onondaga and Cayuga counties. Thomas Newcomb,a veteran of the Revolution came to Cicero early on (probably about 1800) and lived to 1831.He had numerous descendents in the area,and is buried at Taffts Cemetery. Other names associated with him are Haskell,Rev. Taylor,Van Camp,Sleeth and a host of others.I have a lot of history on his family that I would gladly share. Another name is Perry Button of Fabius. He must have arrived about 1800 too as his son,Marvin,served on active duty during the war of 1812. A couple of names associated with them are McCloud and McClenthen. The latter is probably a misspelled word but I thing there are still people in Onondaga county that bear that name today.I am looking for information on that family and finding it elusive. One more little,more modern thing. My aunt,Mary Josephine Van Camp,died in Oneida County I think about 1915. She was a young girl and had measles. My mother cannot remember where she was buried,but she thinks it was one of the big Syracuse cemeteries. Chuck

Thank you! ----- Original Message ----- From: "First Families" <firstfamilies@linkline.com> To: <NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 3:18 PM Subject: [NYCENTRAL] Surnames & Forenames > Hello New York Researchers: > > For those of you who have a deep interest in how, when and where your Surnames > were formed I would like to direct you to 5 new pages we have recently > added to our > web site. > > Many researchers have for years believed that all ancestors with the same > Surname > were at some point related. That is simply not true. > > When you get back to proving your pre 1500s ancestors you will discover > that there are > in fact many Surnames that have passed through many families that have no > relationship > whatsoever. > > The 5 pages mentioned also contain information on many Forenames and their > creation > and some of the pages are large so relax and take your time. > > > THE ORIGIN OF THE SURNAME PART 1 > > THE ORIGIN OF THE SURNAME PART 2 > > THE ORIGIN OF THE FORENAME > > FORENAMES OF WOMEN AND THEIR SIGNIFICANCE > > FORENAMES OF MEN AND THEIR SIGNIFICANCE > .......................................................................... > There is much information here that should be of interest to all. > > Go to our web site at: > > http://www.linkline.com/personal/xymox/ > > Once there enter the link titled "ORIGIN OF SURNAMES & FORENAMES" > this will take you to the index for the 5 pages. > > For those of you who are AOL members you may have trouble connecting to > many pages that may come up with a message such as "Page Does Not Exist" > and you can cure that by using your browser feature of Copy and Paste the URL > to your browser and then enter from there. > > All pages contained within our web pages are free for viewing and study by > all interested > researchers. > > The very best to you all. > > Enjoy. > > Harold Oliver > Director > America's First Families > > > > > > > > > ==== NY-CENTRA Mailing List ==== > To post messages to the central New York discussion list, send them to NY-CENTRA-L@rootsweb.com even if you receive the digest. > > ============================== > Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration > Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 > >

My Cook ancestors came by way of Otsego co., where they married Wrights. Went to Pompey,and Chittenango. Charles,Samuel Clement down to Louisa Cook who married a Mitchell. Cooks are buried in Delphi Bapt. Ch.Cem.and in Chittenango. My grgrandfather Clement Cook married a Louisa French from Vt.. I also have Hyle ancestors in Jefferson Co.,Ny and then in Onondaga Co. I have traced my Cooks and Wright back to pre Rev. times. Happy to share, Eleanor Hyle Dillon

I hope this doesn't bore anyone.... but I suppose I should send something for the CHALLENGE... My name is Dice and my family has resided in the Syracuse area since (at least) around the end of the Civil War. The earliest documentation I have is from Surrogate papers from my gggrandfather in Onondaga County in 1868. Beyond that I have not been able to establish any definite links. I do know that a Dice family started the Schoharie County area before the Revolutionary war but I cannot tie back to them. Those Dices' were Loyalists and did go Canada but at least two returned to the 'States' after the war. Also, I cannot tie to the Dice families in PA and GA. My dad knows VERY little about the family, i.e. grandparents, aunts uncles etc. Of course it doesn't help that my grandfather and his sisters had a family feud when their father died. My grandfather even (unofficially) changed the name to Dyce. There are books from school that belonged to my dad's (older) sisters and brothers that have the last name spelled that way. My dad discovered the name 'change' when he was an older teenager and needed a copy of his birth certificate. The clerk was sharp enough to check alternate spellings of the name. My grandfather's mother's name was Hanna/Anna Hall, b. 1857. From what I can figure, she and her parents came to the US around 1869. Her parents were Samuel Hall and Sarah Thompson married 5/21/1845 in Killeeshill, Co Tyrone, N. Ireland. All three supposedly were both in 'England', however the 'England' reference may be more one of a political nature than a instead of a geographical one. Both my Dice ggandparents are buried in a cemetery in Syracuse along with my dad's uncle who fell off a train near Norwich, NY. He DID work on the railroad. My dad had no idea they where they were buried. Enough for now !!!!