Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W

Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have taken up so much time and effort from you all. A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. The same name as my g. grandfather. I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed. Oh dear another can of worms ! I now have to consider that Bertie told porkies about his 'Single' status in Sheffield barracks in 1911 knowing that his new girlfriend was staying at his parents home in Nottingham, and that he would have to lie for the rest of his life about his first marriage and subsequent births of his children from his second marriage. When I look at Bertie's photograph, butter wouldn't melt. I am now looking for records of The Northumberland Fusiliers at the beginning of the 20th century. Anyone up for that !!!!!!!!!! Thanks go to Lesley, for such an in depth piece of research which will serve as an example to all of us experienced and inexperienced alike. Also thanks to all those who have made a contribution. Yet again the list has proved that it is the bee's knees. Bill W On 24 November 2013 07:49, Lesley O'Connell <lesleyo@tesco.net> wrote: > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but > Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office > There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and > Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died > between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane > McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios > can > be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife > separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but > didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When > the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married > (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane > had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken > at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell > the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and > Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even > less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she > having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as > single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth > in > this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service > record > to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration > district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that > has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her > parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other > way > round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have > the > copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 > census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info > given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her > age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or > whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what > I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10

As the marriage is on familysearch and is from an extraction, you can order a copy from the LDS Sarah Alberta Goff, "India, Marriages, 1792-1948 " Name: Bertie Owen Wardle Birth Date: 1886 Birthplace: Age: 21 Spouse's Name: Sarah Alberta Goff Spouse's Birth Date: 1890 Spouse's Birthplace: Spouse's Age: 17 Event Date: 24 Oct 1907 Event Place: Calcutta, Bengal, India Father's Name: Gilbert Wardle Mother's Name: Spouse's Father's Name: Harry Goff Spouse's Mother's Name: Race: Marital Status: Single Previous Wife's Name: Spouse's Race: Spouse's Marital Status: Single Spouse's Previous Husband's Name: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75041-1 System Origin: India-EASy GS Film number: 528114 Reference ID: Sources Citing this Record "India, Marriages, 1792-1948 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJN-ZXC : accessed 24 Nov 2013), Bertie Owen Wardle and Sarah Alberta Goff, 24 Oct 1907. Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 24/11/2013 13:34, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: > Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have > taken up so much time and effort from you all. > > A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF > marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I > DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. The > same name as my g. grandfather. > I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post > > " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed.