Hi Lesley and all, That is a wonderful piece of research, and also, if I may say so, a concise and well thought out summary of all possible scenarios. You have highlighted what most of us who have spent years researching our family trees know, and that is we have to look at every single possibility no matter how improbable it looks. Just on the subject of Bertie's military career, there is only a WW1 record of his medals, no pension details nor service records exist. There is a museum for the Northumberland Fusiliers based at Alnwick Castle (you have to pay to visit the Castle to access the museum) but their website refers you to The National Archive or Ancestry.com to find records pre 1920. As you rightly conclude - it is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible to get at the truth of the situation. I hope it's not too cold for you up in the Aveyron hills. Brian Binns -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley O'Connell Sent: 24 November 2013 07:49 To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

How odd I am reading a novel and the Lady Mary Countess of Mar is living at - Alnwick Castle ! Di McKee New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Binns" <bnbinns@gmail.com> To: "'Lesley O'Connell'" <lesleyo@tesco.net>; <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > Hi Lesley and all, > > That is a wonderful piece of research, and also, if I may say so, a > concise > and well thought out summary of all possible scenarios. You have > highlighted > what most of us who have spent years researching our family trees know, > and > that is we have to look at every single possibility no matter how > improbable > it looks. > > Just on the subject of Bertie's military career, there is only a WW1 > record > of his medals, no pension details nor service records exist. There is a > museum for the Northumberland Fusiliers based at Alnwick Castle (you have > to > pay to visit the Castle to access the museum) but their website refers you > to The National Archive or Ancestry.com to find records pre 1920. > > As you rightly conclude - it is likely to be very difficult, if not > impossible to get at the truth of the situation. > > I hope it's not too cold for you up in the Aveyron hills. > > Brian Binns > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Lesley O'Connell > Sent: 24 November 2013 07:49 > To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on > 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but > Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There > is > also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and > Catherine, > in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then > and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios > can > be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife > separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but > didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When > the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married > (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah > Jane > had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be > taken > at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not > tell > the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and > Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, > even > less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she > having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as > single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth > in > this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service > record > to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration > district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane > that > has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her > parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other > way > round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have > the > copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 > census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to > info > given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her > age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or > whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is > what > I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message