Hi Lesley and all, That is a wonderful piece of research, and also, if I may say so, a concise and well thought out summary of all possible scenarios. You have highlighted what most of us who have spent years researching our family trees know, and that is we have to look at every single possibility no matter how improbable it looks. Just on the subject of Bertie's military career, there is only a WW1 record of his medals, no pension details nor service records exist. There is a museum for the Northumberland Fusiliers based at Alnwick Castle (you have to pay to visit the Castle to access the museum) but their website refers you to The National Archive or Ancestry.com to find records pre 1920. As you rightly conclude - it is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible to get at the truth of the situation. I hope it's not too cold for you up in the Aveyron hills. Brian Binns -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley O'Connell Sent: 24 November 2013 07:49 To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

what a wonderful and cleaver piece of research. Wish someone would break down my brick wall like that . Margaret NOTTS UK In a message dated 24/11/2013 07:51:19 GMT Standard Time, lesleyo@tesco.net writes: Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Depending on who you change to, you may well still be able to receive E-mails from the address you are stopping. I have been with BT for 6 years but using Outlook, I can still send and receive E-mails for older Tiscali, Virgin and Onetel addresses via BT. -----Original Message----- From: Barbara Torney Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2013 4:47 PM To: 'Acorn Cottage' ; 'Brian Binns' ; NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] - HELP Thank you - will do that ~ Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Acorn Cottage [mailto:orange.wasps@live.co.uk] Sent: 23 November 2013 15:41 To: 'Barbara Torney'; 'Brian Binns'; NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [NTT] - HELP Hi Barbara Yes - afraid that is the only way if you change your email address. Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Torney > Sent: 23 November 2013 15:23 > To: 'Brian Binns'; NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NTT] - HELP > > > Hi all, sorry to ask for help on the general forum but I want > to change my email address... ! shouldn't be that difficult I > know but do I have to unsubscribe and then join again?? I > have email nottsgen with no response Can anyone help? > Thank you ~ Barbara > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Brian Binns > Sent: 21 November 2013 09:22 > To: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane > McNamara I can find on the 1901 UK census is living in > Scotland with her parents, but is listed as being only 7 > years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The 1911 > Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot > follow the rest of the family to confirm or otherwise whether > this is the same Sarah. > > > > The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in > Nottingham is aged 21 > - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given > that the 1901 example appears to be the only match then Sarah > was not telling the truth about her age in 1911, and had not > realised/known where she had been born - both quite common > occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave birth > to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given > age at her death also concludes that she was born in 1890, > but if she had deceived Bertie then he would have no reason > to think otherwise. > > > > Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? > > > > Brian Binns > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you - will do that ~ Barbara -----Original Message----- From: Acorn Cottage [mailto:orange.wasps@live.co.uk] Sent: 23 November 2013 15:41 To: 'Barbara Torney'; 'Brian Binns'; NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [NTT] - HELP Hi Barbara Yes - afraid that is the only way if you change your email address. Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Torney > Sent: 23 November 2013 15:23 > To: 'Brian Binns'; NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NTT] - HELP > > > Hi all, sorry to ask for help on the general forum but I want > to change my email address... ! shouldn't be that difficult I > know but do I have to unsubscribe and then join again?? I > have email nottsgen with no response Can anyone help? > Thank you ~ Barbara > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Brian Binns > Sent: 21 November 2013 09:22 > To: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane > McNamara I can find on the 1901 UK census is living in > Scotland with her parents, but is listed as being only 7 > years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The 1911 > Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot > follow the rest of the family to confirm or otherwise whether > this is the same Sarah. > > > > The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in > Nottingham is aged 21 > - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given > that the 1901 example appears to be the only match then Sarah > was not telling the truth about her age in 1911, and had not > realised/known where she had been born - both quite common > occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave birth > to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given > age at her death also concludes that she was born in 1890, > but if she had deceived Bertie then he would have no reason > to think otherwise. > > > > Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? > > > > Brian Binns > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Barbara Yes - afraid that is the only way if you change your email address. Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Barbara Torney > Sent: 23 November 2013 15:23 > To: 'Brian Binns'; NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NTT] - HELP > > > Hi all, sorry to ask for help on the general forum but I want > to change my email address... ! shouldn't be that difficult I > know but do I have to unsubscribe and then join again?? I > have email nottsgen with no response Can anyone help? > Thank you ~ Barbara > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Brian Binns > Sent: 21 November 2013 09:22 > To: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane > McNamara I can find on the 1901 UK census is living in > Scotland with her parents, but is listed as being only 7 > years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The 1911 > Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot > follow the rest of the family to confirm or otherwise whether > this is the same Sarah. > > > > The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in > Nottingham is aged 21 > - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given > that the 1901 example appears to be the only match then Sarah > was not telling the truth about her age in 1911, and had not > realised/known where she had been born - both quite common > occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave birth > to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given > age at her death also concludes that she was born in 1890, > but if she had deceived Bertie then he would have no reason > to think otherwise. > > > > Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? > > > > Brian Binns > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi all, sorry to ask for help on the general forum but I want to change my email address... ! shouldn't be that difficult I know but do I have to unsubscribe and then join again?? I have email nottsgen with no response Can anyone help? Thank you ~ Barbara -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Brian Binns Sent: 21 November 2013 09:22 To: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane McNamara I can find on the 1901 UK census is living in Scotland with her parents, but is listed as being only 7 years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The 1911 Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot follow the rest of the family to confirm or otherwise whether this is the same Sarah. The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in Nottingham is aged 21 - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given that the 1901 example appears to be the only match then Sarah was not telling the truth about her age in 1911, and had not realised/known where she had been born - both quite common occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave birth to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given age at her death also concludes that she was born in 1890, but if she had deceived Bertie then he would have no reason to think otherwise. Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? Brian Binns Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Marcia, James was baptised and "born the same day" which may signify that he wasn't expected to live, a rushed baptism would usually have been a private baptism. If you have looked everywhere else and haven't found him, then I'd suggest searching through the parish register to see if there was a subsequent burial for him. Cheers Trish Nowra NSW > I have a Copy of a baptism of James son of Eliz.th Godward in > Lowdham, Nottinghamshire, England "Oct 16th 1791: James illigitimate > Son of Eliz.th: Godward born the same day."

I wonder if this is in fact GODDARD?. My gt. grandmother's GOTHARD family is from Appleby Magna and Leicester;  she moved into Nottingham to be a children's nurse and her sister eventually married a man from Mansfield.   Census entries vary with GOZZARD, GOTHERD, and similar - old problem of local accent, near-deaf cleric and semi-illiterate enumerators?? Only fairly recently did I find that this is an East Midlands variation of GODDARD and I am now trying to connect with other possible related families of this surname through the Goddard Association of Europe.   Retired sub is only £5 per annum - easily affordable.   (They have other branches too) Take a further look in neighbouring parishes of Burton Joyce, East Bridgford, Southwell, Lambley, Arnold, etc, as I have found other of my surnames scattered in quite a wide area along the River Trent.   Some of the families are known to have worked on/along the canals and waterways.   They may had a hurried baptism before moving on? Mavis, born Nottingham, now in Somerset. >________________________________ > From: Tony Proctor <tony@proctor.net> >To: symonds3 <psym8950@bigpond.net.au>; NoTTSGEN@rootsweb.com >Sent: Friday, 22 November 2013, 9:10 >Subject: Re: [NTT] Godward puzzle > > >I can't see any such death. Another possibility is that the child lived and >was "adopted" (in the informal sense) by another family member. Have you >looked at Elizabeth's close relatives? > >    Tony Proctor > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "symonds3" <psym8950@bigpond.net.au> >To: <NoTTSGEN@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 12:34 AM >Subject: Re: [NTT] Godward puzzle > > >> Hi Marcia, >> James was baptised and "born the same day" which may signify that he >> wasn't >> expected to live, a rushed baptism would usually have been a private >> baptism. >> If you have looked everywhere else and haven't found him, then I'd suggest >> searching through the parish register to see if there was a subsequent >> burial for him. >> Cheers >> Trish >> Nowra NSW >> >>> I have a Copy of a baptism of James son of Eliz.th Godward in >>> Lowdham, Nottinghamshire, England "Oct 16th 1791: James illigitimate >>> Son of Eliz.th: Godward born the same day." >> >> >> >> Notts Surname List >> >> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >Notts Surname List > >http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

I can't see any such death. Another possibility is that the child lived and was "adopted" (in the informal sense) by another family member. Have you looked at Elizabeth's close relatives? Tony Proctor ----- Original Message ----- From: "symonds3" <psym8950@bigpond.net.au> To: <NoTTSGEN@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [NTT] Godward puzzle > Hi Marcia, > James was baptised and "born the same day" which may signify that he > wasn't > expected to live, a rushed baptism would usually have been a private > baptism. > If you have looked everywhere else and haven't found him, then I'd suggest > searching through the parish register to see if there was a subsequent > burial for him. > Cheers > Trish > Nowra NSW > >> I have a Copy of a baptism of James son of Eliz.th Godward in >> Lowdham, Nottinghamshire, England "Oct 16th 1791: James illigitimate >> Son of Eliz.th: Godward born the same day." > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bill, I really don't want to continue what you say is off track of your original request, and I am genuinely trying to help - I'm not just muddying the waters for no reason. I looked for a Sarah J McNamara on the 1901 census and could only found the one about whom I posted earlier. There is no other Sarah J McNamara so it is highly possible that this is your Sarah. She later was a single mother and many people, not just those perhaps trying to conceal things lied about their age on census forms. You yourself say you would rather trust BDMs rather than censuses. It is also quite conceivable that she was unaware of her actual birth place - I have many instances of people in my tree stating the place where they lived for most of their childhood as their birthplace. People were not so aware of their birthplace nor their birth date in those days. If we accept this theory, then once she had lied she would have to continue, so that's why Bertie have her age as 30 at her death - he wasn't lying, he was only repeating the age of Sarah that he had been told - by her! And I don't see where she could have lied about her age on a birth certificate. Neither the mother's nor father's age is/was required. Only trying to help. If you know of another Sarah McNamara other than the one I found then my theory is shot to bits. Brian Binns From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W On 21 November 2013 09:22, Brian Binns <bnbinns@gmail.com> wrote: Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane McNamara I can find on the 1901 UK census is living in Scotland with her parents, but is listed as being only 7 years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The 1911 Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot follow the rest of the family to confirm or otherwise whether this is the same Sarah. The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in Nottingham is aged 21 - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given that the 1901 example appears to be the only match then Sarah was not telling the truth about her age in 1911, and had not realised/known where she had been born - both quite common occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave birth to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given age at her death also concludes that she was born in 1890, but if she had deceived Bertie then he would have no reason to think otherwise. Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? Brian Binns Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory <http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10> &x=13&y=10

Anyone on the list have a suggestion for this puzzle? I have a Copy of a baptism of James son of Eliz.th Godward in Lowdham, Nottinghamshire, England "Oct 16th 1791: James illigitimate Son of Eliz.th: Godward born the same day." Then I have a burial record for an Elizabeth Godward of Lowdham in 1795. I am attempting to learn what happened to her son James after his mother died. I've tried marriage and death indexes, and the 1841 census. What would be my next step?

I have been following these pasts with interest as I have two similar brick walls in my Family Tree. Have you found this all ready is it a clue? Bert Owen WEARDLE died 1942 of 74 Derbyshire Lane Sheffield will to MINNIE SUSANNAH WARDLE widow ? Margaret NOTTS UK

Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W On 21 November 2013 09:22, Brian Binns <bnbinns@gmail.com> wrote: > Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane McNamara I can > find on the 1901 UK census is living in Scotland with her parents, but is > listed as being only 7 years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The > 1911 > Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot follow the rest of > the family to confirm or otherwise whether this is the same Sarah. > > > > The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in Nottingham is aged > 21 > - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given that the 1901 > example appears to be the only match then Sarah was not telling the truth > about her age in 1911, and had not realised/known where she had been born - > both quite common occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave > birth to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given age at > her > death also concludes that she was born in 1890, but if she had deceived > Bertie then he would have no reason to think otherwise. > > > > Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? > > > > Brian Binns > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10

Further to the previous correspondence, the only Sarah Jane McNamara I can find on the 1901 UK census is living in Scotland with her parents, but is listed as being only 7 years old i.e. born in 1894, but in Ireland! The 1911 Scotland census is not available on Ancestry so I cannot follow the rest of the family to confirm or otherwise whether this is the same Sarah. The Sarah Jane McNamara (Jennie) on the 1911 census in Nottingham is aged 21 - born 1890 - and gives her birthplace as Scotland. Given that the 1901 example appears to be the only match then Sarah was not telling the truth about her age in 1911, and had not realised/known where she had been born - both quite common occurrences. She would have been 15 or 16 when she gave birth to her daughter Phyllis, if the above is correct. Her given age at her death also concludes that she was born in 1890, but if she had deceived Bertie then he would have no reason to think otherwise. Family History research is rather complicated isn't it? Brian Binns

Bill, With respect, you have been given information and advice and you are still denying it. You say that Bertie was a popular name and that is the reason that the Basford marriage in 1911 could not be your Bertie. There are just 2 Bertie Wardle marriages listed on Ancestry - just 2 - and one of them is in Basford. I would suggest that it's not as popular a name as you may think. If this wasn't your Bertie, then there is still no marriage to be found. Have you actually established that Bertie is his forename, as registered, and not just a shortened version? Though, I have searched for you under Albert, and also just his second forename Owen, but still can't find a marriage As Nivard as said, if and wherever he got married it would have been recorded at the GRO. Yes, there are the odd ones missing, but they are very, very rare. So looking in India, or in non-conformist Chapels would be fruitless. I think you have to conclude that Bertie and Sarah never married. Logically, the Basford marriage of Bertie Wardle does not appear to be yours, but to misquote Sherlock Holmes - When you have eliminated all the impossibilities, whatever remains, however improbable, must be possible. Brian Binns -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of WARDLE WILLIAM Sent: 20 November 2013 23:46 To: Nivard Ovington Cc: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle & Jane Mc Namara marriage Nivard, Sarah J's daughter was born Dec 14th 1909 in Goodhead St, The Meadows. No father recorded. However the name Phyllis is the name of Bertie's sister who was born and died in 1901. So there's a possibility that Bertie Owen was the father of Phyllis Mc McNamara. This supports the theory that Sarah J. was staying with her prospective inlaws. Sarah felt no need to lie on her 1st child's birth certificate, and also declared her daughters correct name on the 1911 census, so why should she lie or give mis-information on subsequent certificates ? Brian, I suggest that the Haslam or Anthony GRO marriages to a Bertie Wardle are not to my Bertie Owen. Back then Bertie was a popular name because of it's Royal connotations. I have to follow up the Indian marriage and any records that may have been performed at Sheffield Army Chapel if such a place existed. I would love to have a list of the non-con and RC churches in the Hyson Green area. I have tried to ring the United Reform Church on Gregory Boulevard but the number on their website is incorrect. Thanks everyone for your help so far Best Wishes Bill Wardle On 20 November 2013 15:44, Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Bill > > Although the birth certs may look like the couple were married, there > was no system of checking every registration for proof of marriage of > the parents, only if deceit was suspected would proof be asked for > > So finding the wording on a birth registration does not in any way > prove they were, only that the informant was believed > > In 1911 > Jennie MCNAMARA 21 single is a boarder with Gilbert & Amy WARDLE > Phylis MCNAMARA 16 months in the same household (presumed daughter of > Jennie) > > Do you know if a father is named on the birth cert for Phyllis? > > Births Mar 1910 > MCNAMARA Phyllis Nottingham 7b 326 > > As Jennie was born in Glasgow I had a quick look on scotlandspeople > for a marriage there but found none (under Jennie, Jane or Sarah) > > Neither did I find an obvious hit for Sarah, Jane or Jennie MCNAMARA > born circa 1890 in Glasgow in the census, have you found her or her > parents in pre 1911 census ? > > Do you know if MCNAMARA was her maiden name for certain? > > ie was she married before? > > The only marriage in the 1911/1912 period I found that matched in any > way was > > Marriages Dec 1911 > Anthony Edith E Basford 7b 463 > Haslam Annie Basford 7b 463 > Schofield William Basford 7b 463 > Wardle Bertie Basford 7b 463 > > So could Bertie have married Annie? > > It appears that a SCHOFIELD & HASLAM were having children post 1911 so > perhaps not > > Other than that I found no evidence they married > > I presume its his medal card 1377 Northumberland Fusiliers ? > > If so his SWB roll entry says he enlisted 10th June 1905 and was > discharged 10th Feb 1916 due to sickness > > No sign of a pension record which is it existed would be likely to > record the place and date of marriage to be eligible for pension for > wife and children > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 20/11/2013 12:23, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: > > Hi All, I wonder if I may call on your combine expertise to help me > > break down ONE of my long standing brick walls. > > > > My father's cousin is coming up to 95 yrs old in December 2013(b.1918). > Her > > daughter informs me that her mum has always believed that her > > parents weren't married. > > All of the information that we have collected indicates to me that > > they were indeed married. > > BUT I cannot find the marriage. > > I am sure that it would please an old lady so much to see written > > proof > of > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10 Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bill - Notts Archives list an Independent Chapel and a Wesleyan Methodist Chapel in their Hyson Green holdings John M ----- Original Message ----- From: "WARDLE WILLIAM" <wwardle@ntlworld.com> To: "Nivard Ovington" <ovington.one@gmail.com> Cc: <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle & Jane Mc Namara marriage > Nivard, > > Sarah J's daughter was born Dec 14th 1909 in Goodhead St, The Meadows. No > father recorded. However the name Phyllis is the name of Bertie's sister > who was born and died in 1901. So there's a possibility that Bertie Owen > was the father of Phyllis Mc McNamara. This supports the theory that Sarah > J. was staying with her prospective inlaws. > Sarah felt no need to lie on her 1st child's birth certificate, and > also declared her daughters correct name on the 1911 census, so why should > she lie or give mis-information on subsequent certificates ? > > Brian, > I suggest that the Haslam or Anthony GRO marriages to a Bertie Wardle are > not to my Bertie Owen. Back then Bertie was a popular name because of it's > Royal connotations. > > I have to follow up the Indian marriage and any records that may have > been > performed at Sheffield Army Chapel if such a place existed. > > I would love to have a list of the non-con and RC churches in the Hyson > Green area. I have tried to ring the United Reform Church on Gregory > Boulevard but the number on their website is incorrect. > > Thanks everyone for your help so far > > Best Wishes > > Bill Wardle > > > > > > > > > > > On 20 November 2013 15:44, Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi Bill >> >> Although the birth certs may look like the couple were married, there >> was no system of checking every registration for proof of marriage of >> the parents, only if deceit was suspected would proof be asked for >> >> So finding the wording on a birth registration does not in any way prove >> they were, only that the informant was believed >> >> In 1911 >> Jennie MCNAMARA 21 single is a boarder with Gilbert & Amy WARDLE >> Phylis MCNAMARA 16 months in the same household (presumed daughter of >> Jennie) >> >> Do you know if a father is named on the birth cert for Phyllis? >> >> Births Mar 1910 >> MCNAMARA Phyllis Nottingham 7b 326 >> >> As Jennie was born in Glasgow I had a quick look on scotlandspeople for >> a marriage there but found none (under Jennie, Jane or Sarah) >> >> Neither did I find an obvious hit for Sarah, Jane or Jennie MCNAMARA >> born circa 1890 in Glasgow in the census, have you found her or her >> parents in pre 1911 census ? >> >> Do you know if MCNAMARA was her maiden name for certain? >> >> ie was she married before? >> >> The only marriage in the 1911/1912 period I found that matched in any >> way was >> >> Marriages Dec 1911 >> Anthony Edith E Basford 7b 463 >> Haslam Annie Basford 7b 463 >> Schofield William Basford 7b 463 >> Wardle Bertie Basford 7b 463 >> >> So could Bertie have married Annie? >> >> It appears that a SCHOFIELD & HASLAM were having children post 1911 so >> perhaps not >> >> Other than that I found no evidence they married >> >> I presume its his medal card 1377 Northumberland Fusiliers ? >> >> If so his SWB roll entry says he enlisted 10th June 1905 and was >> discharged 10th Feb 1916 due to sickness >> >> No sign of a pension record which is it existed would be likely to >> record the place and date of marriage to be eligible for pension for >> wife and children >> >> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >> >> On 20/11/2013 12:23, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: >> > Hi All, I wonder if I may call on your combine expertise to help me >> > break >> > down ONE of my long standing brick walls. >> > >> > My father's cousin is coming up to 95 yrs old in December 2013(b.1918). >> Her >> > daughter informs me that her mum has always believed that her parents >> > weren't married. >> > All of the information that we have collected indicates to me that they >> > were indeed married. >> > BUT I cannot find the marriage. >> > I am sure that it would please an old lady so much to see written proof >> of >> >> >> Notts Surname List >> >> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > Websites: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ > http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10 > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again Bill Although its possible that Phyllis is of the same parentage, she may not be and that is a reason why they may have changed the story in later registrations, plus the fact they wanted to live a respectable life after the Army, the post office were hot on their employees reputations at the time If they married in England/Wales or Scotland it would be recorded That would include all Army marriages wherever they might be carried out, and any non conformist marriages, Catholic and otherwise By the time of 1911 or 1912 marriages abroad are almost certainly recorded in the overseas indexes and unfortunately there are only two WARDLE marriages a James and a Lucy H Plus the logistics of getting to India for a marriage and returning in time for the birth in 1912 seem highly unlikely Would she have left her 16 month old child at home? as I do not think any right minded mother would take her to India I don't blame you for continuing to look but I suspect its a forlorn hope There is a slim chance the marriage was performed and recorded at a local level but not passed to the GRO in the quarterly returns, so I would try both Sheffield and Notts to see if that is a possibility (I know as my g.g.grandparents marriage in 1843 is not in the GRO, I thought for years they never married :-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 20/11/2013 23:46, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: > Nivard, > > Sarah J's daughter was born Dec 14th 1909 in Goodhead St, The Meadows. > No father recorded. However the name Phyllis is the name of Bertie's > sister who was born and died in 1901. So there's a possibility that > Bertie Owen was the father of Phyllis Mc McNamara. This supports the > theory that Sarah J. was staying with her prospective inlaws.

Nivard, Sarah J's daughter was born Dec 14th 1909 in Goodhead St, The Meadows. No father recorded. However the name Phyllis is the name of Bertie's sister who was born and died in 1901. So there's a possibility that Bertie Owen was the father of Phyllis Mc McNamara. This supports the theory that Sarah J. was staying with her prospective inlaws. Sarah felt no need to lie on her 1st child's birth certificate, and also declared her daughters correct name on the 1911 census, so why should she lie or give mis-information on subsequent certificates ? Brian, I suggest that the Haslam or Anthony GRO marriages to a Bertie Wardle are not to my Bertie Owen. Back then Bertie was a popular name because of it's Royal connotations. I have to follow up the Indian marriage and any records that may have been performed at Sheffield Army Chapel if such a place existed. I would love to have a list of the non-con and RC churches in the Hyson Green area. I have tried to ring the United Reform Church on Gregory Boulevard but the number on their website is incorrect. Thanks everyone for your help so far Best Wishes Bill Wardle On 20 November 2013 15:44, Nivard Ovington <ovington.one@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Bill > > Although the birth certs may look like the couple were married, there > was no system of checking every registration for proof of marriage of > the parents, only if deceit was suspected would proof be asked for > > So finding the wording on a birth registration does not in any way prove > they were, only that the informant was believed > > In 1911 > Jennie MCNAMARA 21 single is a boarder with Gilbert & Amy WARDLE > Phylis MCNAMARA 16 months in the same household (presumed daughter of > Jennie) > > Do you know if a father is named on the birth cert for Phyllis? > > Births Mar 1910 > MCNAMARA Phyllis Nottingham 7b 326 > > As Jennie was born in Glasgow I had a quick look on scotlandspeople for > a marriage there but found none (under Jennie, Jane or Sarah) > > Neither did I find an obvious hit for Sarah, Jane or Jennie MCNAMARA > born circa 1890 in Glasgow in the census, have you found her or her > parents in pre 1911 census ? > > Do you know if MCNAMARA was her maiden name for certain? > > ie was she married before? > > The only marriage in the 1911/1912 period I found that matched in any > way was > > Marriages Dec 1911 > Anthony Edith E Basford 7b 463 > Haslam Annie Basford 7b 463 > Schofield William Basford 7b 463 > Wardle Bertie Basford 7b 463 > > So could Bertie have married Annie? > > It appears that a SCHOFIELD & HASLAM were having children post 1911 so > perhaps not > > Other than that I found no evidence they married > > I presume its his medal card 1377 Northumberland Fusiliers ? > > If so his SWB roll entry says he enlisted 10th June 1905 and was > discharged 10th Feb 1916 due to sickness > > No sign of a pension record which is it existed would be likely to > record the place and date of marriage to be eligible for pension for > wife and children > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 20/11/2013 12:23, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: > > Hi All, I wonder if I may call on your combine expertise to help me break > > down ONE of my long standing brick walls. > > > > My father's cousin is coming up to 95 yrs old in December 2013(b.1918). > Her > > daughter informs me that her mum has always believed that her parents > > weren't married. > > All of the information that we have collected indicates to me that they > > were indeed married. > > BUT I cannot find the marriage. > > I am sure that it would please an old lady so much to see written proof > of > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10

On 2013/11/20 14:23, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: > Sarah Jane Mc NAMARA died May 1920 in Sheffield. She was registered as Sarah J WARDLE, aged 30. Wouldn't the Death certificate have some information as to the relationship? There again, it probably says 'wife', but whether this is accurate or not couldn't be stated from the certificate. Again, the information is reliant on the person registering the death. Whether any putative marriage took place in a non-conformist church is immaterial. The event still had to have been registered and should appear on the GRO. A check of the records for the two likeliest local offices (Basford and Ecclesall Bierlow) might be worth pursuing. It's always possible that the event didn't make its way from the local office to the GRO in the quarterly return. Based on what I can see on-line, I would have to say that there was no marriage. -- Regards, Mike Fry Johannesburg

FreeBMD shows no birth entries for WARDLE/HASLAM or WARDLE/ANTHONY in the period 1912 - 1922 but does show 3 children for WARDLE/MCNAMARA - in 1912, 1915 and 1919 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Binns" <bnbinns@gmail.com> To: "'Nivard Ovington'" <ovington.one@gmail.com>; <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle & Jane Mc Namara marriage > If Bertie did not marry Annie Haslam, then he must have married Edith > Anthony. I too found these as the only possibilities. > > Brian Binns > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington > Sent: 20 November 2013 15:45 > To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle & Jane Mc Namara marriage > > Hi Bill > > Although the birth certs may look like the couple were married, there was > no > system of checking every registration for proof of marriage of the > parents, > only if deceit was suspected would proof be asked for > > So finding the wording on a birth registration does not in any way prove > they were, only that the informant was believed > > In 1911 > Jennie MCNAMARA 21 single is a boarder with Gilbert & Amy WARDLE Phylis > MCNAMARA 16 months in the same household (presumed daughter of > Jennie) > > Do you know if a father is named on the birth cert for Phyllis? > > Births Mar 1910 > MCNAMARA Phyllis Nottingham 7b 326 > > As Jennie was born in Glasgow I had a quick look on scotlandspeople for a > marriage there but found none (under Jennie, Jane or Sarah) > > Neither did I find an obvious hit for Sarah, Jane or Jennie MCNAMARA born > circa 1890 in Glasgow in the census, have you found her or her parents in > pre 1911 census ? > > Do you know if MCNAMARA was her maiden name for certain? > > ie was she married before? > > The only marriage in the 1911/1912 period I found that matched in any way > was > > Marriages Dec 1911 > Anthony Edith E Basford 7b 463 > Haslam Annie Basford 7b 463 > Schofield William Basford 7b 463 > Wardle Bertie Basford 7b 463 > > So could Bertie have married Annie? > > It appears that a SCHOFIELD & HASLAM were having children post 1911 so > perhaps not > > Other than that I found no evidence they married > > I presume its his medal card 1377 Northumberland Fusiliers ? > > If so his SWB roll entry says he enlisted 10th June 1905 and was > discharged > 10th Feb 1916 due to sickness > > No sign of a pension record which is it existed would be likely to record > the place and date of marriage to be eligible for pension for wife and > children > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 20/11/2013 12:23, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: >> Hi All, I wonder if I may call on your combine expertise to help me >> break down ONE of my long standing brick walls. >> >> My father's cousin is coming up to 95 yrs old in December >> 2013(b.1918). Her daughter informs me that her mum has always believed >> that her parents weren't married. >> All of the information that we have collected indicates to me that >> they were indeed married. >> BUT I cannot find the marriage. >> I am sure that it would please an old lady so much to see written >> proof of > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message