Entyr in the Gonalston Baptism Register: 6 Mar 1738/39: Ann a baseborn dau of Mary BLACKENBURY als OGLE (the reputed father being Robert SHEPHERD of Eperston, father in law of the said Mary) was baptised Hope this is of interest to someone John Mellors

Just to be awfully pedantic, and for a reason lost in time I suppose, both the East and West versions of these villages dropped their "E" and are spelled BRIDGFORD. This always upsets my spell checker, but so be it. Brian Binns Incidentally, a member of The Bridgford Local History Society - next meeting 7.30 this Friday, Community Hall, West Bridgford. -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington Sent: 04 December 2013 20:10 To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] PEREGRINE NICHOLAS LIGHTFOOT Hi April You missed off part of the occupation in 1901 he is enumerated as "board school teacher" Kellys Directory Nottinghamshire 1900 West Bridgeford Urban District Council Meets at the Board Room, Board School, on the first Friday in each month, at 7:30pm Board School (mixed) opened in 1895 for 360 children; enlarged in 1897 for 600 children; average attendance, 485; Ernest J ELEY, master; Miss Edith N ALLEN, infants' mistress Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 04/12/2013 19:19, April wrote: > Hello everyone. > > I am researching for an elderly friend who was cousin to PEREGRINE > NICHOLAS LIGHTFOOT who was born New Forest, Hampshire. 1864. > > I have found Peregrine in the 1901 census West Bridgeford, > Nottinghamshire. he would have been about 36 or so years old and a > Teacher, believed a Science Teacher. > > He is a Boarder with Thomas E Burnett 27, Charlotte his wife 26 , and > daughter Dorothy 2 years. > > 118. Loughboro' Rd, West Bideford. > > Am trying to find the School where he taught there. > > Can anyone help me please. > > Thank you. > > April Clark. New Forest. Hampshire Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Free BMD in June 1888 at Newark. Marriages Jun 1888    ________________________________ JACKSON  Samuel    Newark  7b 569    Wadkin  Mary    Newark  7b 569    WHEATLEY  Hannah Elizabeth    Newark  7b 569   You could order a copy marriage certificate which would give you more details of his bride. the two families intermarried a couple of generations earlier in Nottingham - FHS Index. WADKIN Dorothy JACKSON John 19/07/1813 NOTTINGHAM St Mary Mavis ---- Original Message ----- > From: charles martin <charli1990@outlook.com> > To: "nottsgen@rootsweb.com" <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, 4 December 2013, 20:18 > Subject: [NTT] Wadkin: Jackson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Nivard and Jim, > You are both correct, I put my query to the list without much thought and I can > see I could have been more precise.  The wedding (Wadkin: Jackson) and the year > date 1888 was written on a piece of yellowed paper found in a family bible. > There are more goodies inside  the cover of the family bible but they need a > conservator.  When I find what exciting items there are in there I will share. > I know Charles has JACKSON, WHEATLEY and WADKINS in his family also FAIRHOLMES > but as Charles is unable to type (a neurological condition) at present I am > doing some legwork for him. > As  far as I know from the family apocrypha the JACKSONS came from the Grantham > area, the WADKINS I am unsure of but the name is common in parts of northern > England. The FAIRHOLMES seem to be old Gedling residents. > I have just had sight of a wedding, JACKSON and WADKIN, on Free BMD and I am > keen to find out more and more.  > Jim, would you please put the names on your listings? > be safe > Charli >

Thank you Nivard and Jim, You are both correct, I put my query to the list without much thought and I can see I could have been more precise. The wedding (Wadkin: Jackson) and the year date 1888 was written on a piece of yellowed paper found in a family bible. There are more goodies inside the cover of the family bible but they need a conservator. When I find what exciting items there are in there I will share. I know Charles has JACKSON, WHEATLEY and WADKINS in his family also FAIRHOLMES but as Charles is unable to type (a neurological condition) at present I am doing some legwork for him. As far as I know from the family apocrypha the JACKSONS came from the Grantham area, the WADKINS I am unsure of but the name is common in parts of northern England. The FAIRHOLMES seem to be old Gedling residents. I have just had sight of a wedding, JACKSON and WADKIN, on Free BMD and I am keen to find out more and more. Jim, would you please put the names on your listings? be safe Charli

Hi April You missed off part of the occupation in 1901 he is enumerated as "board school teacher" Kellys Directory Nottinghamshire 1900 West Bridgeford Urban District Council Meets at the Board Room, Board School, on the first Friday in each month, at 7:30pm Board School (mixed) opened in 1895 for 360 children; enlarged in 1897 for 600 children; average attendance, 485; Ernest J ELEY, master; Miss Edith N ALLEN, infants' mistress Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 04/12/2013 19:19, April wrote: > Hello everyone. > > I am researching for an elderly friend who was cousin to PEREGRINE > NICHOLAS LIGHTFOOT who was born New Forest, Hampshire. 1864. > > I have found Peregrine in the 1901 census West Bridgeford, > Nottinghamshire. he would have been about 36 or so years old and a > Teacher, believed a Science Teacher. > > He is a Boarder with Thomas E Burnett 27, Charlotte his wife 26 , and > daughter Dorothy 2 years. > > 118. Loughboro' Rd, West Bideford. > > Am trying to find the School where he taught there. > > Can anyone help me please. > > Thank you. > > April Clark. New Forest. Hampshire

Hello everyone. I am researching for an elderly friend who was cousin to PEREGRINE NICHOLAS LIGHTFOOT who was born New Forest, Hampshire. 1864. I have found Peregrine in the 1901 census West Bridgeford, Nottinghamshire. he would have been about 36 or so years old and a Teacher, believed a Science Teacher. He is a Boarder with Thomas E Burnett 27, Charlotte his wife 26 , and daughter Dorothy 2 years. 118. Loughboro' Rd, West Bideford. Am trying to find the School where he taught there. Can anyone help me please. Thank you. April Clark. New Forest. Hampshire

Would you like me to put your query on my Newark surnames interest pages at http://www.jimella.me.uk/nerksrnm.cfm ? Nivard's point will apply here, too. The more information you can give, the more likely you are to get a useful response. Jim Fisher On 4 Dec 2013 at 13:02, charles martin wrote: > Hi all, > - am new to the list and looking fora longshot really. - trying to get a > connection with the 1888 marriage in Newark (NTT) between Saml. JACKSON and > Eliz. WADKIN with a family named STANCER at Bassingham, nr Newark. > Be safe > charli -- Forget Google! I search with https://duckduckgo.com which doesn't spy on you

Hi Charli I suspect you will need to give some clues as to why you think there may be a connection As it stands you haven't really given anything to go on Where have you checked so far and more importantly why do you think there is a connection Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > - am new to the list and looking fora longshot really. - trying to get a connection with the 1888 marriage in Newark (NTT) between Saml. JACKSON and Eliz. WADKIN with a family named STANCER at Bassingham, nr Newark. > Be safe > charli

Hi all, - am new to the list and looking fora longshot really. - trying to get a connection with the 1888 marriage in Newark (NTT) between Saml. JACKSON and Eliz. WADKIN with a family named STANCER at Bassingham, nr Newark. Be safe charli

I’ve been tidying up my family tree – more the side branches actually – and have been searching the wills and probate section on Ancestry. This resource is very useful for post 1911 events as it gives addresses and often occupations; the amounts left and to whom; and an actual death date, rather than just the quarter which is all I’ve currently got for those not in a direct line – cousins, 2nd cousins, grand uncles etc etc. I say the death date is shown – but sadly not in one I’ve just found. My maternal grandmother, Charlotte COOKE was one of 12 children – 9 girls, 2 boys and 1 unknown. The unknown was one of those instances from the 1911 census where the number of children born; still alive; and died, were recorded. An unknown child had obviously been born and died in between censuses. The birth pattern – every 2 years or so – indicates when this child was born, but there are just too many COOKEs, ad COOKs with infant mortality, for me to make a firm identification. But back to my main point. One of my grandmother’s brothers left Nottingham and according to my mother when I was asking after her aunts and uncles, the family lost contact with him. When the 1911 census became available, which was after my mother had died, I found him in Mexborough, Yorkshire working for The Great Central Railway as a fireman. I was then able to trace his marriage and his subsequent children. But yesterday as I said, I decided to tidy up some records, so I searched and found a probate record for him which read: “COOKE Samuel Owen of 65 Church Street, Swinton, Yorkshire who was last seen alive on 18th January 1964 and whose dead body was found on the 30th January 1964 in the canal off Market Street, Swinton. Administration Wakefield 3rd March to Sarah Ann Cooke widow. £274.” How sad. He would have been 76 years old so possibly just fell in. One of my other current favourite resources, Newspapers online via “Find my Past” doesn’t have digitised images from such a late date, so I might have to call in at a local library one day to see if there was an inquest reported in the local paper. Wills and probate records are available at Notts Archives by the way, but not name searchable. You have to search the fiches alphabetically like we all did when we first started out. Brian Binns

This is not genealogy-related but I think it is for a good cause. The Nottingham (England) Playhouse makes world-class theatre and inspirational learning, participatory and training opportunities for many thousands of local people and visitors. See <http://www.nottinghamplayhouse.co.uk>http://www.nottinghamplayhouse.co.uk for details. The diverse programme of performances, the youth and community theatres, the participatory community groups and support for emerging and established theatre practitioners all bring audiences and artists together and, by doing so, make life worth living. The Nottingham Playhouse receives a significant amount of its income from taxpayers. It costs each Nottinghamshire taxpayer about 10p a year and invests considerably more than that in the local economy. A significant proportion of the theatre's activity and local investment will be diminished if a proposal from the Nottinghamshire County Council cuts its grant by 100%. The proposed cut is too deep and too quick for the theatre to be able to source funding from elsewhere by the time the cut will come into effect. The belief is that the proposed cuts will reduce the amount of money pumped into the local economy by theater goers far more than any tax money savings produced. An online petition started by Ben Spiller asks the Nottinghamshire County Council to reconsider the extent of its proposed cut. You can learn more and even sign the online petition at <http://goo.gl/WRPdrQ>http://goo.gl/WRPdrQ. Posted by <http://profile.typepad.com/dick_eastman>Dick Eastman on November 30, 2013

Nottinghamshire Manorial Documents Register now online at TNA <http://t.co/bQsEtfy>http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/news/616.htm <https://twitter.com/search?q=%23genealogy&src=hash>#<https://twitter.com/search?q=%23genealogy&src=hash>genealogy <https://twitter.com/search?q=%23archives&src=hash>#archives

In Find My past I found a marriage for him in 1921 Bertie O Wardle married Minnie Banks Ecclesall Bierlow Yorkshire 1921 April May June Vol 9c Page 668 I realise I have come in a bit late in the day and may have missed something. Good luck

-----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 2:34 AM To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: NOTTSGEN Digest, Vol 6, Issue 271 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara (Brian Binns) 2. Re: Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara (DayMargaretstan@aol.com) 3. Re: Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara (Balloon Expedition Co.) 4. Re: Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara (WARDLE WILLIAM) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 08:07:35 -0000 From: "Brian Binns" <bnbinns@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara To: "'Lesley O'Connell'" <lesleyo@tesco.net>, <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001b01cee8ec$3cf3a750$b6daf5f0$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Lesley and all, That is a wonderful piece of research, and also, if I may say so, a concise and well thought out summary of all possible scenarios. You have highlighted what most of us who have spent years researching our family trees know, and that is we have to look at every single possibility no matter how improbable it looks. Just on the subject of Bertie's military career, there is only a WW1 record of his medals, no pension details nor service records exist. There is a museum for the Northumberland Fusiliers based at Alnwick Castle (you have to pay to visit the Castle to access the museum) but their website refers you to The National Archive or Ancestry.com to find records pre 1920. As you rightly conclude - it is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible to get at the truth of the situation. I hope it's not too cold for you up in the Aveyron hills. Brian Binns -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Lesley O'Connell Sent: 24 November 2013 07:49 To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 05:01:10 -0500 (EST) From: DayMargaretstan@aol.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara To: lesleyo@tesco.net, NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <333ef.21ede615.3fc32866@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" what a wonderful and cleaver piece of research. Wish someone would break down my brick wall like that . Margaret NOTTS UK In a message dated 24/11/2013 07:51:19 GMT Standard Time, lesleyo@tesco.net writes: Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 23:31:17 +1300 From: "Balloon Expedition Co." <balexped@ihug.co.nz> Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara To: "Brian Binns" <bnbinns@gmail.com>, "'Lesley O'Connell'" <lesleyo@tesco.net>, <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <5275BDAD2DDD40ACAF0B1FDD047EF956@diane49b4da1eb> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original How odd I am reading a novel and the Lady Mary Countess of Mar is living at - Alnwick Castle ! Di McKee New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Binns" <bnbinns@gmail.com> To: "'Lesley O'Connell'" <lesleyo@tesco.net>; <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > Hi Lesley and all, > > That is a wonderful piece of research, and also, if I may say so, a > concise > and well thought out summary of all possible scenarios. You have > highlighted > what most of us who have spent years researching our family trees know, > and > that is we have to look at every single possibility no matter how > improbable > it looks. > > Just on the subject of Bertie's military career, there is only a WW1 > record > of his medals, no pension details nor service records exist. There is a > museum for the Northumberland Fusiliers based at Alnwick Castle (you have > to > pay to visit the Castle to access the museum) but their website refers you > to The National Archive or Ancestry.com to find records pre 1920. > > As you rightly conclude - it is likely to be very difficult, if not > impossible to get at the truth of the situation. > > I hope it's not too cold for you up in the Aveyron hills. > > Brian Binns > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Lesley O'Connell > Sent: 24 November 2013 07:49 > To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on > 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but > Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There > is > also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and > Catherine, > in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then > and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios > can > be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife > separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but > didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When > the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married > (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah > Jane > had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be > taken > at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not > tell > the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and > Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, > even > less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she > having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as > single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth > in > this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service > record > to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration > district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane > that > has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her > parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other > way > round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have > the > copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 > census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to > info > given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her > age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or > whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is > what > I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 13:34:33 +0000 From: WARDLE WILLIAM <wwardle@ntlworld.com> Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara To: "Lesley O'Connell" <lesleyo@tesco.net> Cc: "nottsgen@rootsweb.com" <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <CAEYY4f+UVqFLhJP8EzVqetMzj0UyPZPSv4h-8H5NtSVOpPfDOg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have taken up so much time and effort from you all. A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. The same name as my g. grandfather. I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed. Oh dear another can of worms ! I now have to consider that Bertie told porkies about his 'Single' status in Sheffield barracks in 1911 knowing that his new girlfriend was staying at his parents home in Nottingham, and that he would have to lie for the rest of his life about his first marriage and subsequent births of his children from his second marriage. When I look at Bertie's photograph, butter wouldn't melt. I am now looking for records of The Northumberland Fusiliers at the beginning of the 20th century. Anyone up for that !!!!!!!!!! Thanks go to Lesley, for such an in depth piece of research which will serve as an example to all of us experienced and inexperienced alike. Also thanks to all those who have made a contribution. Yet again the list has proved that it is the bee's knees. Bill W On 24 November 2013 07:49, Lesley O'Connell <lesleyo@tesco.net> wrote: > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on > 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but > Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office > There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and > Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died > between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane > McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios > can > be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife > separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but > didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When > the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married > (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah > Jane > had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be > taken > at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not > tell > the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and > Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, > even > less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she > having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as > single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth > in > this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service > record > to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration > district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane > that > has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her > parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other > way > round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have > the > copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 > census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to > info > given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her > age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or > whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is > what > I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10 ------------------------------ End of NOTTSGEN Digest, Vol 6, Issue 271 ****************************************

How odd I am reading a novel and the Lady Mary Countess of Mar is living at - Alnwick Castle ! Di McKee New Zealand ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Binns" <bnbinns@gmail.com> To: "'Lesley O'Connell'" <lesleyo@tesco.net>; <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > Hi Lesley and all, > > That is a wonderful piece of research, and also, if I may say so, a > concise > and well thought out summary of all possible scenarios. You have > highlighted > what most of us who have spent years researching our family trees know, > and > that is we have to look at every single possibility no matter how > improbable > it looks. > > Just on the subject of Bertie's military career, there is only a WW1 > record > of his medals, no pension details nor service records exist. There is a > museum for the Northumberland Fusiliers based at Alnwick Castle (you have > to > pay to visit the Castle to access the museum) but their website refers you > to The National Archive or Ancestry.com to find records pre 1920. > > As you rightly conclude - it is likely to be very difficult, if not > impossible to get at the truth of the situation. > > I hope it's not too cold for you up in the Aveyron hills. > > Brian Binns > > -----Original Message----- > From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Lesley O'Connell > Sent: 24 November 2013 07:49 > To: nottsgen@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on > 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but > Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There > is > also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and > Catherine, > in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then > and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios > can > be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife > separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but > didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When > the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married > (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah > Jane > had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be > taken > at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not > tell > the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and > Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, > even > less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she > having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as > single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth > in > this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service > record > to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration > district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane > that > has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her > parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other > way > round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have > the > copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 > census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to > info > given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her > age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or > whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is > what > I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

As the marriage is on familysearch and is from an extraction, you can order a copy from the LDS Sarah Alberta Goff, "India, Marriages, 1792-1948 " Name: Bertie Owen Wardle Birth Date: 1886 Birthplace: Age: 21 Spouse's Name: Sarah Alberta Goff Spouse's Birth Date: 1890 Spouse's Birthplace: Spouse's Age: 17 Event Date: 24 Oct 1907 Event Place: Calcutta, Bengal, India Father's Name: Gilbert Wardle Mother's Name: Spouse's Father's Name: Harry Goff Spouse's Mother's Name: Race: Marital Status: Single Previous Wife's Name: Spouse's Race: Spouse's Marital Status: Single Spouse's Previous Husband's Name: Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75041-1 System Origin: India-EASy GS Film number: 528114 Reference ID: Sources Citing this Record "India, Marriages, 1792-1948 ," index, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FGJN-ZXC : accessed 24 Nov 2013), Bertie Owen Wardle and Sarah Alberta Goff, 24 Oct 1907. Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 24/11/2013 13:34, WARDLE WILLIAM wrote: > Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have > taken up so much time and effort from you all. > > A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF > marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I > DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. The > same name as my g. grandfather. > I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post > > " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed.

Bill early 20th Century Records of Marriages for tne Northumberland Fusiliers exist at the National Archives as follows: 1st Bn marriages 1798 - 1914 births/bapts 1812-1914 2nd Bn mar 1845 - 1914 b/bp 1849-1914 3rd Bn mar 1886 - 1912 b/bp1886 - 1912 4th Bn mar 1879 - 1911 b/bp 1887 - 1911 These might be on Find My past You might find out which Bn was in India on: http://web.archive.org/web/20060110124913/www.regiments.org/regiments/index.htm John M ----- Original Message ----- From: "WARDLE WILLIAM" <wwardle@ntlworld.com> To: "Lesley O'Connell" <lesleyo@tesco.net> Cc: <nottsgen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 1:34 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara > Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have > taken up so much time and effort from you all. > > A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF > marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I > DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. > The > same name as my g. grandfather. > I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post > > " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed. > > Oh dear another can of worms ! > I now have to consider that Bertie told porkies about his 'Single' status > in Sheffield barracks in 1911 knowing that his new girlfriend was staying > at his parents home in Nottingham, and that he would have to lie for the > rest of his life about his first marriage and subsequent births of his > children from his second marriage. > > When I look at Bertie's photograph, butter wouldn't melt. > > I am now looking for records of The Northumberland Fusiliers at the > beginning of the 20th century. > > Anyone up for that !!!!!!!!!! > > Thanks go to Lesley, for such an in depth piece of research which will > serve as an example to all of us experienced and inexperienced alike. > Also thanks to all those who have made a contribution. Yet again the list > has proved that it is the bee's knees. > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > On 24 November 2013 07:49, Lesley O'Connell <lesleyo@tesco.net> wrote: > >> >> Hi Bill >> >> Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on >> 24 >> October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but >> Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : >> Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 >> Author: >> India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office >> There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and >> Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died >> between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah >> Jane >> McNamara. >> >> This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios >> can >> be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife >> separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but >> didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. >> Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at >> Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When >> the children were born they were registered as if the parents were >> married >> (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah >> Jane >> had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be >> taken >> at face value. >> >> Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not >> describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not >> tell >> the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and >> Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, >> even >> less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she >> having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as >> single. >> >> It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth >> in >> this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service >> record >> to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration >> district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane >> that >> has somehow been omitted by the GRO. >> >> Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her >> parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other >> way >> round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? >> >> Regards >> Lesley >> Aveyron, France >> >> >> >> From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] >> Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 >> To: Brian Binns >> Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara >> >> >> >> Brian , with respect, >> >> >> >> I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have >> the >> copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) >> >> You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 >> census >> >> entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) >> >> >> >> What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? >> >> What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to >> info >> given in bmd certificates >> >> Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So >> not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth >> certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her >> age. >> >> >> >> I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or >> whether there >> >> is a marriage record in existence. >> >> Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. >> >> >> >> My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting >> point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. >> >> >> >> ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. >> >> We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is >> what >> I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. >> >> >> >> Best Regards >> >> >> >> Bill W >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Notts Surname List >> >> http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > Websites: > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ > http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10 > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bill, Just to clarify, you still are referring to "Bertie's second marriage." Are you referring to Sarah McNamara? All the correspondence from others on this site indicates that Bertie and Sarah McNamara never did marry. No record of their "marriage" exists. Perhaps you are referring to his marriage to Minnie later. Whatever, you now have to establish whether or not the first Sarah in India was dead by the time of Bertie's marriage to Minnie, or else you have a bigamist in your tree. Don't worry though. My great grandfather was a bigamist twice! Is that a trigamist? Brian Binns -----Original Message----- From: nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nottsgen-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of WARDLE WILLIAM Sent: 24 November 2013 13:35 To: Lesley O'Connell Cc: nottsgen@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Bertie Wardle and Sarah Jane McNamara Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have taken up so much time and effort from you all. A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. The same name as my g. grandfather. I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed. Oh dear another can of worms ! I now have to consider that Bertie told porkies about his 'Single' status in Sheffield barracks in 1911 knowing that his new girlfriend was staying at his parents home in Nottingham, and that he would have to lie for the rest of his life about his first marriage and subsequent births of his children from his second marriage. When I look at Bertie's photograph, butter wouldn't melt. I am now looking for records of The Northumberland Fusiliers at the beginning of the 20th century. Anyone up for that !!!!!!!!!! Thanks go to Lesley, for such an in depth piece of research which will serve as an example to all of us experienced and inexperienced alike. Also thanks to all those who have made a contribution. Yet again the list has proved that it is the bee's knees. Bill W On 24 November 2013 07:49, Lesley O'Connell <lesleyo@tesco.net> wrote: > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, > on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane > McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office > There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry > and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah > died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry > Sarah Jane McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible > scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie > and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their > different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and > expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. > When the children were born they were registered as if the parents > were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very > easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the > details she gave would be taken at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not > tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and > he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the > GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one > and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and > describing herself as single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the > truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's > service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with > local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for > Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that > her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the > other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone > asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and > have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few > more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the > 1901 census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to > info given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about > her age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where > or whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is > what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10 Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Leslie, and everyone, I never thought my original request would have taken up so much time and effort from you all. A few years ago I came across the Bertie Owen & Sarah Alberta GOFF marriage in India but cannot remember the source. But one thing that I DID'NT see was that this Bertie Owen's father was named Gilbert WARDLE. The same name as my g. grandfather. I now find myself staring at the first line of Lesley's post " Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India " That looks very tasty indeed. Oh dear another can of worms ! I now have to consider that Bertie told porkies about his 'Single' status in Sheffield barracks in 1911 knowing that his new girlfriend was staying at his parents home in Nottingham, and that he would have to lie for the rest of his life about his first marriage and subsequent births of his children from his second marriage. When I look at Bertie's photograph, butter wouldn't melt. I am now looking for records of The Northumberland Fusiliers at the beginning of the 20th century. Anyone up for that !!!!!!!!!! Thanks go to Lesley, for such an in depth piece of research which will serve as an example to all of us experienced and inexperienced alike. Also thanks to all those who have made a contribution. Yet again the list has proved that it is the bee's knees. Bill W On 24 November 2013 07:49, Lesley O'Connell <lesleyo@tesco.net> wrote: > > Hi Bill > > Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 > October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but > Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : > Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 > Author: > India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office > There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and > Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died > between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane > McNamara. > > This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios > can > be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife > separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but > didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. > Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at > Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When > the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married > (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane > had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken > at face value. > > Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not > describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell > the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and > Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even > less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she > having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as > single. > > It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth > in > this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service > record > to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration > district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that > has somehow been omitted by the GRO. > > Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her > parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other > way > round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? > > Regards > Lesley > Aveyron, France > > > > From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] > Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 > To: Brian Binns > Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara > > > > Brian , with respect, > > > > I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have > the > copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) > > You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 > census > > entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) > > > > What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? > > What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info > given in bmd certificates > > Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So > not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth > certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her > age. > > > > I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or > whether there > > is a marriage record in existence. > > Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. > > > > My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting > point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. > > > > ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. > > We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what > I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Bill W > > > > > > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NOTTSGEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Websites: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hartshorn/ http://wardlehistory.tribalpages.com/?userid=wardlehistory&x=13&y=10

Hi Bill Family Search has the marriage of Bertie Owen Wardle, father Gilbert, on 24 October 1907 in Calcutta, India but it is not to Sarah Jane McNamara but Sarah Alberta Goff, father Harry. Source : Parish register transcripts from the Presidency of Bengal, 1713-1948 Author: India. Office of the Registrar General; Great Britain. India Office There is also a baptism for Sarah Alberta Emeline Goff, parents Harry and Catherine, in Agra, India, on 8 October 1890. So unless this Sarah died between then and 1912, Bertie would not have been able to marry Sarah Jane McNamara. This is indeed a complicated problem and all sorts of possible scenarios can be envisaged. What I think is most likely is that Bertie and his wife separated early on in their marriage and went their different ways but didn't get divorced, it being both difficult and expensive at that time. Sarah Jane McNamara came to Nottingham to work and became a boarder at Bertie's parents, as shown in the 1911 census, where she met Bertie. When the children were born they were registered as if the parents were married (was it Sarah Jane who registered them?) This was very easy; all Sarah Jane had to do was put on a wedding ring and the details she gave would be taken at face value. Other scenarios- Bertie's first wife did die (although Bertie does not describe himself as a widower in the 1911 census, he certainly did not tell the truth as he was either married or widowed at that period) and he and Sarah Jane did marry but the marriage was not recorded at the GRO. Or, even less plausibly, Sarah Alberta and Sarah Jane are one and the same, she having taken to using the surname McNamara and describing herself as single. It is likely to be very difficult, if not impossible, to get at the truth in this situation. You should think about investigating Bertie's service record to see if that provides any clues and checking with local registration district records to see if a marriage exists for Bertie and Sarah Jane that has somehow been omitted by the GRO. Lastly, just a thought. Why should your father's cousin believe that her parents were not married, if in fact they were? Normally it is the other way round. She must have some reason for her belief. Has anyone asked her? Regards Lesley Aveyron, France From: WARDLE WILLIAM [mailto:wwardle@ntlworld.com] Sent: 21 November 2013 10:34 To: Brian Binns Cc: NOTTSGEN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NTT] Sarah j McNamara Brian , with respect, I have pretty well searched through Ancestry 1901 Censuses etc. and have the copy you mention. I have disgarded it as incorrect . (a few more besides) You have suggested that Sarah J. had lied based on the entry in the 1901 census entry which shows a Sarah J. McNamara 7 yrs old.(not mine) What if 'My' Sarah J. WAS telling the truth? What is so sacrosanct about info given in Census records as opposed to info given in bmd certificates Sarah J.'s death certificate 1920 gives her age as 30yrs. (b. 1890) So not only did Sarah lie in the 1911 census and all 3 children's birth certificates Bertie Owen the informant of her death also lied about her age. I feel we are off track with my original request and that is: where or whether there is a marriage record in existence. Not whether I have drawn the correct conclusions from my evidence. My normal approach to research is to use the census only as a starting point. Then check other sources etc before buying certificates. ie I trust BMDs via GRO before Census records. We are continually being told not to rely on one source only. Which is what I have done by collecting 5x BMDs and 1x1911 Census. Best Regards Bill W