Since my forthright views seem to upset some people on this list and also because I am a believer in total honesty and integrity in family history and genealogical research and "telling it like it is", I thought perhaps I would post my life events details, if only to show that I am no hypocrite when I oppose the ridiculous (in my view) Rootsweb policy of not permitting mention of living people. I was born on 4 July 1940 at St Luke's Hospital, Bradford, Yorkshire. This building was the former Bradford Union workhouse which became a general hospital in the late 1920s. I discovered, to my considerable amusement, that being born there was still regarded as a stigma by silly little people and officials until well into the 1960s to the extent that the Bradford Register Office only identified it with its official address, 217 Horton Lane, which is what appears on my birth certificate with no mention of it being a hospital or former workhouse. Paranoia reigned, even back then! Anyone looking for my birth in the GRO indexes will not find it until the 1st quarter of 1941 when I was registered in Bradford, not once but twice, as Roy Stockdill and also as Roy Midgley, the reason being that Midgley was my mother's maiden name and at the time she wasn't married to my father, Leonard Stockdill. He was at that time still legally married to his first wife, as I subsequently discovered when I started researching my family history about 40 years ago. My dad was a businessman and my mum was then his secretary. My father had also had an illegitimate daughter, my half sister whom I discovered some 30 years ago and with whom I get on extremely well, though she lives in Australia - my dad put himself around a bit! He married my mother in the summer of 1942 after his divorce came through. Technically, they were well outside the requiste period of 42 days when they registered me, but it was wartime and I expect they had other things on their mind. My marriage in Coventry to my wife in 1963 is also easily found in the GRO indexes and so are the births of my two sons in Watford, Hertfordshire. Given my expertise, I can find just about anyone who was born in Britain after 1911. Why am I telling all this to the list? Because, as I have explained, I happen to think that so-called privacy and secrecy in family history is paranoid nonsense when all the records are easily accessible and in the public domain and anyone who thinks privacy is necessary on a mailing list really shouldn't be here at all. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

On 2012/02/05 17:44, Debbie wrote: > My question is....If you have a common name, there is no way to know which > family is truly yours without sending for the certificate? Correct? True! You need to match the possibilities, working backwards from known information gleaned from the censuses. As always, start with what is known and then work backwards. In doing do, you may come across uncommon Christian names which can help decide whether you're working with the right family or not. -- Regards, Mike Fry Johannesburg

From: "beeston-notts" <[email protected]> > Index entries for births from Q3/1911 onwards include the maiden > name of the mother. > > This is an excellent differentiator which often enables you to > choose the correct entry (and to build family groups - which may also help to > differentiate). Of course, if the maiden name is a common one, the > problem may well remain. > > David Hallam < And from the first quarter of 1912 the GRO marriage indexes link the parties to a marriage with the surname of the person they married alongside the entry. Before that date it is not always easy to discover who married who when there were very often two marriages to a page and sometimes four. Of course, this is where the census returns come in very valuable. For marriages after 1912 it is often possible to resolve the problem because you are going to find them in the 1911 census - but even then, there is often a problem, say, when you find a man's name and two women called Mary in the same entry at FreeBMD, etc. Which Mary did he marry? And that is often a situation where only buying the certificate can resolve it. Researching family history, inevitably, costs money, just like any other hobby and I never tire of telling beginners this. So many newcomers seem to think it can all be done online or just by asking questions in a mailing list. IT CAN'T! -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

John I do not propose to answer all your points except to say that I have often wondered how Australian family historians ever manage to do their research at all when access to records is denied to them! I find this an unbelievable situation in a supposedly democratic country and it never ceases to amaze me that Australian genealogists, on the whole, seem to accept the situation. What price freedom? As for not being liked by some people, well, that's never been something that's bothered me too much, frankly. Some of the most successful people in history were hated by everyone! What I do know is that I am extremely good at my job, both as a journalist and a genealogist, and I have never been one to hide my light under the proverbial bushel. If that gets up a few noses - well, TOUGH. As for your lawyer friend, do let us know if he succeeds in getting anything out of the person who you say stole your family history. My betting is that it's a very long shot indeed. As I pointed out, you yourself were the one who invited an intrusion into your own privacy by ever putting it online in the first place. Best wishes and good luck with your researches. Roy

Index entries for births from Q3/1911 onwards include the maiden name of the mother. This is an excellent differentiator which often enables you to choose the correct entry (and to build family groups - which may also help to differentiate). Of course, if the maiden name is a common one, the problem may well remain. David Hallam [email protected] www.beeston-notts.co.uk > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Debbie > Sent: 05 February 2012 15:45 > To: Nottingham History Society > Subject: [NTT] Question > > > Hi Everyone, > > In reading the post, it says: > > You should also, however, try and trace them at FreeBMD, which > has many millions of birth, > marriage and death records from the General Register Office for > England & Wales online. > This can be found at: http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl > and does not require a > subscription. The GRO records go back to July 1st 1837 and then > you are back to the parish > registers. > > My question is....If you have a common name, there is no way to > know which family is truly yours > without sending for the certificate? Correct? > > Thank you > Debbie > USA > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi again The first line would read a little better as :- Even with a rather unusual name you cannot see the details *to know you have the right person* unless you buy the certificate for births or deaths Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi Debbie > > Even with a rather unusual name you cannot see the details unless you buy the certificate for > births or deaths

From: "Debbie" <[email protected]> > Hi Everyone, > > In reading the post, it says: > > You should also, however, try and trace them at FreeBMD, which has > many millions of birth, marriage and death records from the General Register Office for > England & Wales online. This can be found at: http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl and > does not require a subscription. The GRO records go back to July 1st 1837 and then you > are back to the parish registers. > > My question is....If you have a common name, there is no way to know > which family is truly yours > without sending for the certificate? Correct? > > Thank you > Debbie > USA > Not entirely true, Debbie. The phrase I would use is: there is no EASY way to know which family is truly yours. You are of course correct in your assumption that if it is a very common surname, then research is going to be more difficult. However, much depends on what sort of time-frame, area and family you are talking about. If it's a Smith family and they were agricultural labours (ag labs, as they are known in genealogical shorthand), then, yes, you could have a problem! On the other hand, it's a paradox of genealogy that it is often easier to trace a family of ag labs who remained in the same parish for many generations than it is to follow a family of upwardly mobile aspirations who moved about to further their career and business. How do you tell, for instance, if a John Smith who was born in Nottingham in humble circumstances was the same John Smith who went to London and became a wealthy merchant? Of course, when tracing people it is vital to use the census returns in conjunction with other evidence like BMDs and parish registers, paying particular attention to their age and stated place of birth (which, unfortunately, is not always consistent from one census to another). Yes, often it is necessary to acquire BMD certificates, especially to see who the parents were - and even then, sometimes little white lies were told! But isn't this part of the fascination of family history, making it like a giant jigsaw puzzle or detective novel, and especially the thrill of the chase and the immense satisfaction when a problem is solved> -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi Debbie Even with a rather unusual name you cannot see the details unless you buy the certificate for births or deaths For marriages you might be able to find the Parish record if they married in Church and you know where, given they are available of course (later events will still be at the Church) Other than that you might find details via a baptism, or newspaper announcement So in effect for most people the certificate is the only way to be sure (given the informants told the truth of course <g>) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi Everyone, > > In reading the post, it says: > > You should also, however, try and trace them at FreeBMD, which has many millions of birth, > marriage and death records from the General Register Office for England & Wales online. > This can be found at: http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl and does not require a > subscription. The GRO records go back to July 1st 1837 and then you are back to the parish > registers. > > My question is....If you have a common name, there is no way to know which family is truly yours > without sending for the certificate? Correct? > > Thank you > Debbie > USA

From: "Peter Wright" <[email protected]> > Hi, > > A bit of common sense at last, Roy, and totally agree with what you > have posted. > > regards > Pete ( not quite far north as Yorkshire, but nearly there) in > Mansfield > Many thanks, Pete. A little support from like-minded individuals is always appreciated. I just wish others weren't so prissy about their "privacy". What was it former US President Harry S Truman said about the heat and the kitchen? I always think of that whenever I'm criticised for my opinions! -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Hi, A bit of common sense at last, Roy, and totally agree with what you have posted. regards Pete ( not quite far north as Yorkshire, but nearly there) in Mansfield ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [NTT] Respect for others opinions > Clearly, I seem to have upset one or two people with my forthright and > strongly-held opinions. > I am a born-and-bred, died-in-the-wool Yorkshireman and happen to believe > in calling a > spade a spade and not pussyfooting and tippy-toeing around subjects that > seem to worry > others. If that offends some folks, then I can only apologise, but it > won't change my views! > > As a retired journalist (over 40 years in the media in local and national > newspapers) and the > former editor for 10 years of the Journal of One-Name Studies for the > Guild of One-Name > Studies (twice an award-winning publication), yes, I hold strong opinions > and I am not afraid > to express them. It seems to me that in these politically correct times > far too many people are > terrified of saying what they think in case it upsets some timid, precious > little soul. > > I happen to believe, as a family historian, that we should tell it like it > is - warts and all - and > not be shy about admitting to scandals, illegitimacies, etc, in our family > history. We all have > them and don't let's pretend we haven't! Now, regarding the issue of > privacy, may I be > permitted to make a few salient points? > > 1) It is perfectly open to anyone, wherever they may reside in the world, > to obtain the birth, > marriage or death certificate of anyone else who was born in England and > Wales since 1st > July 1837 when civil registration was first introduced. The system has > always been a > completely open one and rightly so. The reason it is open is to guard > against the very thing > that some people seem to worry about, i.e. fraud. There are documented > cases in the 1840s > when fictitious births and deaths were inserted into the registers in > order that the registrar or > his cohorts, who were paid by the number of entries they produced, > actually invented people > who never existed in order to boost their pay! One registrar in Liverpool > went to jail over the > scandal and there may well have been others who were never uncovered. Some > of those > entries are still in the GRO records today. A reason for marriage records > being open and > available to all is to guard against bigamous marriages (of which I have > personally uncovered > a number in Victorian times AND written about them in magazine articles). > > 2) Anyone who was born in England and Wales from the third quarter of 1911 > onwards, to > this day, will have their mother's maiden name recorded in the indexes, > which are accessible > online to everyone, as we all know, at Ancestry, Findmypast and other > websites. These > records are very clearly IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN and accessible to all and it > is foolish > nonsense to pretend otherwise. I have pointed out earlier in this thread > that anyone who > gives their mother's maiden name as a codeword to their bank, building > society, etc, is foolish > to do so. It's not the fault of the registration system, it's the fault of > the idiots who run the > financial world and don't seem to have caught up with the realities. > > 3) If you choose to take part in mailing lists AND put your personal > details and family history > online, then you are laying yourself open to it being abused. You are > inviting less-than-honest > people to either steal or alter it!!! If you don't want your family > history stolen or altered, then > take my advice and keep it to yourself. There are some very unscrupulous > people around, > but talking of taking legal action against them is so much nonsense > because you will simply > be chucking away good money to parasitic lawyers who will be delighted to > take it. > > 4) There is far too much paranoia about so-called privacy. As I pointed > out also, earlier, every > time I telephone a company to buy something the very first thing they ask > is for my postcode. > They then tell me who I am and where I live! Whether you like it or not, > we all of us ARE on > databases held by government, local councils, the NHS, police, big > companies and > lord-knows-who else. We appear in telephone books and electoral registers, > our details of > our birth and marriage etc, are held by somebody somewhere; thus, to claim > privacy on a > mailing list that can be read online all over the world is simply spurious > and paranoid > nonsense. > > Lecture over! > > > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: > www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Clearly, I seem to have upset one or two people with my forthright and strongly-held opinions. I am a born-and-bred, died-in-the-wool Yorkshireman and happen to believe in calling a spade a spade and not pussyfooting and tippy-toeing around subjects that seem to worry others. If that offends some folks, then I can only apologise, but it won't change my views! As a retired journalist (over 40 years in the media in local and national newspapers) and the former editor for 10 years of the Journal of One-Name Studies for the Guild of One-Name Studies (twice an award-winning publication), yes, I hold strong opinions and I am not afraid to express them. It seems to me that in these politically correct times far too many people are terrified of saying what they think in case it upsets some timid, precious little soul. I happen to believe, as a family historian, that we should tell it like it is - warts and all - and not be shy about admitting to scandals, illegitimacies, etc, in our family history. We all have them and don't let's pretend we haven't! Now, regarding the issue of privacy, may I be permitted to make a few salient points? 1) It is perfectly open to anyone, wherever they may reside in the world, to obtain the birth, marriage or death certificate of anyone else who was born in England and Wales since 1st July 1837 when civil registration was first introduced. The system has always been a completely open one and rightly so. The reason it is open is to guard against the very thing that some people seem to worry about, i.e. fraud. There are documented cases in the 1840s when fictitious births and deaths were inserted into the registers in order that the registrar or his cohorts, who were paid by the number of entries they produced, actually invented people who never existed in order to boost their pay! One registrar in Liverpool went to jail over the scandal and there may well have been others who were never uncovered. Some of those entries are still in the GRO records today. A reason for marriage records being open and available to all is to guard against bigamous marriages (of which I have personally uncovered a number in Victorian times AND written about them in magazine articles). 2) Anyone who was born in England and Wales from the third quarter of 1911 onwards, to this day, will have their mother's maiden name recorded in the indexes, which are accessible online to everyone, as we all know, at Ancestry, Findmypast and other websites. These records are very clearly IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN and accessible to all and it is foolish nonsense to pretend otherwise. I have pointed out earlier in this thread that anyone who gives their mother's maiden name as a codeword to their bank, building society, etc, is foolish to do so. It's not the fault of the registration system, it's the fault of the idiots who run the financial world and don't seem to have caught up with the realities. 3) If you choose to take part in mailing lists AND put your personal details and family history online, then you are laying yourself open to it being abused. You are inviting less-than-honest people to either steal or alter it!!! If you don't want your family history stolen or altered, then take my advice and keep it to yourself. There are some very unscrupulous people around, but talking of taking legal action against them is so much nonsense because you will simply be chucking away good money to parasitic lawyers who will be delighted to take it. 4) There is far too much paranoia about so-called privacy. As I pointed out also, earlier, every time I telephone a company to buy something the very first thing they ask is for my postcode. They then tell me who I am and where I live! Whether you like it or not, we all of us ARE on databases held by government, local councils, the NHS, police, big companies and lord-knows-who else. We appear in telephone books and electoral registers, our details of our birth and marriage etc, are held by somebody somewhere; thus, to claim privacy on a mailing list that can be read online all over the world is simply spurious and paranoid nonsense. Lecture over! -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE

Thanks for sharing this Roy, its very interesting. I've read today's messages with interest, but just want to say you have helped many people over the years, myself included for which I thank you, and hope that you continue to do so. Lin In a message dated 05/02/2012 19:38:11 GMT Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Since my forthright views seem to upset some people on this list and also because I am a believer in total honesty and integrity in family history and genealogical research and "telling it like it is", I thought perhaps I would post my life events details, if only to show that I am no hypocrite when I oppose the ridiculous (in my view) Rootsweb policy of not permitting mention of living people. I was born on 4 July 1940 at St Luke's Hospital, Bradford, Yorkshire. This building was the former Bradford Union workhouse which became a general hospital in the late 1920s. I discovered, to my considerable amusement, that being born there was still regarded as a stigma by silly little people and officials until well into the 1960s to the extent that the Bradford Register Office only identified it with its official address, 217 Horton Lane, which is what appears on my birth certificate with no mention of it being a hospital or former workhouse. Paranoia reigned, even back then! Anyone looking for my birth in the GRO indexes will not find it until the 1st quarter of 1941 when I was registered in Bradford, not once but twice, as Roy Stockdill and also as Roy Midgley, the reason being that Midgley was my mother's maiden name and at the time she wasn't married to my father, Leonard Stockdill. He was at that time still legally married to his first wife, as I subsequently discovered when I started researching my family history about 40 years ago. My dad was a businessman and my mum was then his secretary. My father had also had an illegitimate daughter, my half sister whom I discovered some 30 years ago and with whom I get on extremely well, though she lives in Australia - my dad put himself around a bit! He married my mother in the summer of 1942 after his divorce came through. Technically, they were well outside the requiste period of 42 days when they registered me, but it was wartime and I expect they had other things on their mind. My marriage in Coventry to my wife in 1963 is also easily found in the GRO indexes and so are the births of my two sons in Watford, Hertfordshire. Given my expertise, I can find just about anyone who was born in Britain after 1911. Why am I telling all this to the list? Because, as I have explained, I happen to think that so-called privacy and secrecy in family history is paranoid nonsense when all the records are easily accessible and in the public domain and anyone who thinks privacy is necessary on a mailing list really shouldn't be here at all. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE Notts Surname List http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

*While I enjoy reading this thread, its sorta going off topic a little* * * *Lets get back to the business at hand, please* * * * *hugh moderator On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Brian Taylor <[email protected]>wrote: > In the past, I have posted trees containing details of living people, but > in > order to comply with requests by people affected not to do so, have now > ceased posting anything identifying living people unless I am certain that > I > have their consent. > >

Hello Ztan Thanks for that help - I think it may be the Bobbersmill one as the newspaper extracts refer to Plimsoll-terrace, Plimsoll- street. Sent from my iPad On 4 Feb 2012, at 08:12, [email protected] wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: NOTTSGEN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 28 (Stan Smith) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 10:51:01 -0000 > From: "Stan Smith" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [NTT] NOTTSGEN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 28 > To: <[email protected]> > Message-ID: <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > There was another Plimsoll Terrace in Hyson Green. This was off Plimsoll > Street which in turn was off Bobbers Mill Road. > > You will need to find out which Plimsoll Terrace it is that the newspaper is > referring to. > > Ztan Zmith > Editor Basford Bystander >

In the past, I have posted trees containing details of living people, but in order to comply with requests by people affected not to do so, have now ceased posting anything identifying living people unless I am certain that I have their consent. I have contacted living relatives by posting trees and sometimes requests for descendants of a particular couple (deceased) to contact me. I have a wonderful tale around this, but will not tell it just yet due to my concern for the privacy of those involved. Facebook can also be a goldmine. Brian Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [NTT] Wild/Wilde Family > From: "Peter R Booth" <[email protected]> > >> If looking for living descendants just be aware of privacy issues.> > > Paranoid nonsense! > > There aren't any privacy issues except those introduced by those who are > obsessed with > secrecy and censorship, which has no place in the modern world and most > certainly does not > belong in family history > > If family history is not about the living as well as the dead, then what > on earth is it about? How > are people supposed to find living relatives and connect with them, also > share their family > history and mutual sources, if they are not allowed to connect with one > another? > > Utter, utter nonsense !!!!! > > -- > Roy Stockdill > Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer > Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: > www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html > > "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, > and that is not being talked about." > OSCAR WILDE > > > > > > > Notts Surname List > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hughw/notts.html > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi everyone, I would like to add to the dialogue by stating that there is a person with the same surname as myself who I have reason to believe is a subscriber to this List, who has published on details of living members of my family including my children, against my wishes. That person has refused to answer emails about this offensive behaviour, and the Internet site has basically washed its hands of the matter, saying that I have to talk to the person who published the tree. This leaves me with little choice to but to join with family members to take legal action against the offending parties if the matter is to be settled. This is a perfect example of how it is NOT alright to publish information about living people without their consent, and is also a case for Internet sites to take a ethically responsible attitude towards addressing issues such as this. Regards John Poxon

Roy, While acknowledging your arguments, I happen to have a contrary opinion. I apply the "IF" test. If it were me, would I like this information to be made public. If NO, then don't be the one responsible for it being made public. I took a very dim view of information on my young children being made public. And it's there for the rest of their lifetime, whether they like it or not. They didn't get to choose. Peter

Bill, Just to add to what others have said, check larger libraries or FHS centres in your area. Many offer free access to Ancestry or FindMyPast. That will provide 1841-1911 census records and BMD records 1937-2006. As has been said, it depends if you are looking backwards for ancestors or looking forward to current day descendants. If looking for living descendants just be aware of privacy issues. Peter

Hi Everyone, In reading the post, it says: You should also, however, try and trace them at FreeBMD, which has many millions of birth, marriage and death records from the General Register Office for England & Wales online. This can be found at: http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl and does not require a subscription. The GRO records go back to July 1st 1837 and then you are back to the parish registers. My question is....If you have a common name, there is no way to know which family is truly yours without sending for the certificate? Correct? Thank you Debbie USA

From: "John Poxon" <[email protected]> > I would like to add to the dialogue by stating that there is a > person with the same surname as myself who I have reason to believe is a > subscriber to this List, who has published on details of living members of my > family including my children, against my wishes. > > That person has refused to answer emails about this offensive > behaviour, and the Internet site has basically washed its hands of the matter, > saying that I have to talk to the person who published the tree. This leaves me > with little choice to but to join with family members to take legal action > against the offending parties if the matter is to be settled. > > This is a perfect example of how it is NOT alright to publish > information about living people without their consent, and is also a case for > Internet sites to take a ethically responsible attitude towards addressing > issues such as this.> Don't be so pompous and absurd. All you are actually doing is paying money to a dodgy lawyer (which he will love) to try and suppress something which is in the public domain. Can I spell it out for you? There is no such thing as secrecy and privacy when it comes to someone's birth, marriage and death! These are all items which are entirely matters of fact and public knowledge. They are NOT secret or exclusive possesions belonging to you, or anyone else, alone. They are FACTS of public record to be shared by the whole world. Your birthdate does not belong to you exclusively, any more than does mine. Honestly, I don't understand how people who call themselves family historians can possibly behave like silly little idiots with something to hide. Either we are all democratically in favour of complete openness about our family histories or we are not. If not, then you shouldn't be here at all. -- Roy Stockdill Genealogical researcher, writer & lecturer Newbies' Guide to Genealogy & Family History: www.genuki.org.uk/gs/Newbie.html "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about." OSCAR WILDE