Tony: Forgive me if I am just repeating what you are already aware of but I must at some stage give you two "warnings". One is that with John being such a common Christian name, the surname Johnson (etc) will have had very many quite separate origins. A few may have come from rich and powerful aristocratic families, but the vast majority will be from little-documented "ordinary" ones. The other warning" is that the name could not have originated until there were people named John to have sons. Although most languages/cultures have used names similar to John (Ian, Jan etc) and it is of course Biblical (St John the Divine etc), nevertheless, in its "usual" form of John (Latin: Johannes) it did not become common in England until the Norman conquest and therefore it was several generations before it began to be used by ethnically English people. In 1525 the Earl of Northumberland was Henry Percy, 5th Earl, who had inherited as a minor in 1489 and who was to die in 1527. He seems to have played a lesser part in national affairs than his immediate predecessors, although more might be found about him in M E James: "A Tudor Magnate and the Tudor state: Henry, fifth earl of Northumberland", Borthwick Papers no 30 (York, 1966). The situation in 1131 was quite different. The Earldom of Northumberland was not yet in the Percy family and was held at various times by various people, some of whom were Earls only briefly and some of whom were indeed of Danish origin. It was the end of the "Norman" period and just before the start of the chaos which marked the reign of Stephen. I think you will be more likely to get a meaningful answer to your query if you confine yourself to asking one specific question at a time, as I did find much of the apparently unrelated information you sent to be more confusing than helpful in trying to work out what it is you want to know. Perhaps that is just because I, like most of the subscribers to the "List", am not a mediaeval expert. Most family historians are still stuck in the 18th and 19th centuries and can only look on with jealously when the 12th or even the 16th centuries are being quoted! Geoff Nicholson -----Original Message----- From: tonyemprieore <tonyemprieore@charter.net> To: Geoff Nicholson <geoff.nicholson@aol.co.uk> CC: northumbria <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wed, 4 Mar 2015 7:01 Subject: Re: [NMB] Jonson-Johnson-JOhnstoe etc THere are even two Early Danish Names in Northumberland County invovlement I only posted the time era when SUrnames were begining to be used. THe One at Johnson Hall is some how connected to NOrthumberia just do not know how yet. 1131 Earl of Northumbeland JORNSSON or Bjornson 1292 Coram Rege Roll, Hillary, 20 E. I. Peter de Jonestone, Robert de Johanneston, John de Joneston, THese tie right into the Skermesher familes of Middleton, and Cousin of SIr Thomas Johnson of Northumberland, Yorkshire, Wales, and land owner in Lincolnshire ( Manor of Ruskington owned by the La ZOuche familes represented in COlonial Virginia as the SIr WIlliam Randolph Families) Land owner by LTC RIchard COcke at Turkey ISland and Large Land owner at Tuckahoe Creek where we find WHIte Oak Michael Johnson familes coming off ALice COx and her first Husband Henry Rowen ( Middleton-WOodward-Price-Lllewellyn familes) Rowen is reported to be from Wales. 1293 Banco Roll. Michaelmas, 21 E. I. because the land was in Joniston (Johnstone) and not in Eccleshale THis is the beginnings of Johnson Hall owned by the Skermesher familes. Our interest is around the Earl of Northumberland family in the year 1525 he is some how the kinman of SIr THomas JOhnson married to the widow Isabell Lindley first married to SIr Brian Palmer, In SIr THomas Johnson is reported to be from Northumeblrand in the service of the Earl Of Northumberland. THomas Johnson takes the place of ? Middleton of SPotsforth Forest Sir Brian Palmer is the Earls Lawyer. Now in 1620 SIr THomas Middleton of Wales, London Essex and SHirley HUndred is land owner at lands of SHirley Hundred COlonial Virginian, where we will find the PALMER-Hinton families of SIr Brian Palmers and the Lord De La West families of Palmers as land owners by RIchard Johnson first the servant of William Ferrar ( Lincolnshire families whose Uncle is Nicholas Ferar of YOrkshire) SIr THomas Johnson and wife Isabella Lindleys off spring Henry Johnson born abt 1550 Waltonedge Yorkshire England married Elizabeth Norton, he is reported son of Thomas Johnson born abt 1524 of Walton Yorkshire England. She is the daughter of Richard Norton and wife Suzanna De Neville. Elizabeth Norton ABT 1551 in York, Yorkshire, England Married: ABT 1607 in York, Yorkshire, England THe Norton will be represented by the SPencer and Goodricke-Goodrich familes in COlonial Virginia involved with JOHNSON families. I am the Group leader of the WHite Oakk DN Johnson-Johnston-Jonson familes found in FTDNA ( rootsweb) ni placing the Pedigres of the memebres together we know the FOre Great Grand mother (Many times over) was ALice Cox married to MATTHEW Edloe was born in 1590, in Earsdon, Northumberland, England. http://www.myheritage.com/names/alice_coxe ; (JJDNA Administrators) forefather was born in WE know that WHite Oak Researcher Lisa Grimes familes are the Mallory-Norton-Conyers familes of Northumberland and Yorkshire. It is debated on WHere LTC RIchard Cocke is from ( one of my forefathers) We know the COnstable families trace back to Northumberalnd in white Oak Group. Many Many more connections in this DNA Group trace to Yorkshire and Northumberland. WHite Oak Group of Johnson's are of VIking origins per DNA. Thank you for sharin we will be looking to find these publications On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 10:53 AM, Geoff Nicholson wrote: Tony: You are getting dangerously close to the period when surnames first began to come into use and/or first began to be hereditary. As you probably know, before the 14th century (roughly: different for every family) Henry, son of John ("Johnson"), might have a son Nicholas, son of Henry ("Nicholson"), and so on for later generations until the surname of the day eventually stuck and became hereditary. For what it's worth I often take the Northumberland Lay Subsidy Roll of 1296, published by Newcastle Antiquarian Society in 1968, as a guide to which surnames had come into use in the county by then. The index to the book does not mention any Johnson, but there are numerous people who are called "son of John". Another good source for early Northumberland surnames is the very detailed 15-volume "New History of Northumberland" (NCH), published by the County History Committee at various dates between about 1880 and 1950. It is, of course, in the tradition of Victorian County Histories and is effectively a history of the land-ownership, but it should give you lots of "sons of John" and "Fitz-Johns", whether hereditary or not, as well as no doubt some early Johnsons. For those parts not covered by the County History you could try Hodgson's "History of Northumberland", as the two are complementary, the NCH covering those parishes Hodgson did not reach before his death. For Northumberland's "brother county" (I won't say "sister", as they were both run on very masculine lines at the time!), the County Palatine of Durham, many of the early documents have been published over the years by the Surtees Society, including surveys of the Bishops' lands (most of the county, especially in the northern part) in 1183 (Boldon Book, very few names given) and in c1382 (Hatfield's survey, lots of names given). You might also try contacting, if you haven't done so already, the Clan Johnson Association. If you don't have their details you could try Googling for them. Don't be put off by the word "Clan" - they cover all Johns(t)on(e)s anywhere, especially those who originated on either side of the Scottish Border. Geoff Nicholson -----Original Message----- From: tonyemprieore via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> To: NORTHUMBRIA <NORTHUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tue, 3 Mar 2015 18:06 Subject: [NMB] Jonson-Johnson-JOhnstoe etc Looking for some of the ealriest peopl of this surname in Northumbria Examples of documents Date range: 08 July 1319 - 07 July 1320 [Earldom of Lancaster.] Accounts. Certain places in [co. York] and [co. Northumberland ?]. Views. ...York] and [co. Northumberland ?]. Views. 1m. These documents (PRO 30/26/71/1 - PRO 30/26/71/20) were presented by Major William Moat, O.B.E., J.P., of Johnson Hall, Eccleshall, co. Stafford, in June 1929. ... Collection: Domestic Records of the Public Record Office, Gifts, Deposits, Notes and Transcripts Reference:PRO 30/26/71/1 Subjects:Archives and libraries 1440 alien subsidy, Jacobus Jonson Chillingham, Coquetdale ward, Northumberland son of Elena Jonson in tax assessment, 14 April 1440 brother of Edward Jonson in tax assessment, 14 April 1440 Origin: Nationality: Scotland Original Document E 179/158/41, m. 9 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) Mother is Elena Johnson a house holder http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/person/72521440 alien subsidy, Robert Jonson ( Johnson) Shipley, Coquetdale ward, Northumberland house holder Origins Scotland E 179/158/41, m. 11 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/person/72521440 alien subsidy, Andrew Jonson Edlingham, Coquetdale ward, Northumberland House holder E 179/158/41, m. 15 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/person/72521440 alien subsidy, Andrew Johnson Edlingham, Coquetdale ward, Northumberland E 179/158/41, m. 15 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) non house holder http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/person/72521440 alien subsidy, 1st collection David Jonson [Johnson] Tynemouth, Inter ward, Northumberland Origin Scotland E 179/158/41, m. 4 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/2581440 alien subsidy, Andrew Jonson ( Johnson) North Shields, Inter ward, Northumberland E 179/158/41, m. 4 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) Origins Scotland: Householder http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/2581440 alien subsidy, Thomas Jonson ( johnson) Preston, Inter ward, Northumberland non-householder E 179/158/41, m. 4 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) Origins Scotland http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/2581440 alien subsidy, Thomas Jonson (Johnson) Inter ward, Northumberland Paid. Johnson on E 179/158/74. E 179/158/41, m. 5 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) Origins Scotland non householder http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/2581440 alien subsidy, Robert Jonson Long Houghton, Bamburgh ward, Northumberland Origins Scotland Non house holder E 179/158/41, m. 12 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/2581440 alien subsidy Patrick Jonson Heatherslaw, Glendale ward, Northumberland Origins Scotland, non house holder E 179/158/41, m. 16 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/2581440 alien subsidy Thomas Jonson Heatherslaw, Glendale ward, Northumberland Origins Scotland non householder E 179/158/41, m. 16 (tax assessment, 14 April 1440) http://www.englandsimmigrants.com/document/258Thanks Tony Glad to share information .. Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please introduce yourself at the top of every post. 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