In a message dated 02/12/2009 12:26:37 GMT Standard Time, npatrick@blueyonder.co.uk writes: 1. Javel Groupe was the name of a narrow alley that used to run down to the river 2. A groupe was a channel to carry water. 3. Javel was a weak sodium hypochlorite solution. So most likely the alley was built over a chemical waste outlet to the Tyne. Mystery solved, I think, but then....Why would it have been deemed necessary to erect a fairly expensive structure to mark a narrow alley? Norman Norman: I don't know about the hypochlorite but local history books usually say that the precise function of the Javel Group is not known except that it seems to have been regarded as a place at which rubbish of all types, including dung-heaps that were past their sell-by date, could be dumped in the river in mediaeval times. I have to say I am rather sceptical about the dung heaps as they usually had a ready sale to farmer who came to town to buy them up and then spread on their fields. Anyway, the Javel Group does seem to have provided a ready access place to the river, somewhere where the banks were not built up into a quay, nor lined with buildings, but could be considerred as forming something like a modern slipway. I also have heard of some sort of overnight jail; or lock-up being there - get too much to drink when down the Quayside one night and you could end up in the Javel Group overnight - but I tend to dismiss that as an obvious guess, depending on the similarity of "Javel" and "Jail", so I regard it as doubtful unless there is better direct evidence. One of the earliest references to Javel Group is in the late 14th century accounts for the re-furbishment and extension of the Castle at Newcastle, where it is said that timber for the purpose was bought from John Woodseller and landed at "Gaolegrip" in the Close and carted from there to the Castle. That is mentioned on page 119 of R J Charlton's "Newcastle Town", published in 1885, of which I have the 1978 reprint by Frank Graham. On page 274 it says "The origin of its strange name has been much debated; but it will be remembered that when the gaol of the castle was built, the timber used in its erection was landed at the "Gaole Grippe", most undoubtedly this place. Groope or Grype, says Brand (an earlier historian of Newcastle - GN), means a ditch, and javell is a corruption of gaol. In a view of Newcastle from the south, given in Brand's "History", we see trees growing close to the Javel Group, but now its appearance is far from sylvan." In his next paragraph, Charlton says "A liittle further east from here stood the house of the Earls of Northumberland. It was 'Bounded on the east by Bower Chare, betwixt Tyne Bridge and Javil Groupe' ". I don't know whether that helps or whether it merely adds to the confusion, but there it is anyway! Geoff Nicholson

Thanks for taking the time to respond Geoff, I have already forwarded this info to the questioner and hope it suffices! Personally I rather like the thought, that it is a bit of a mystery. Norman > > > > Norman: > > I don't know about the hypochlorite but local history books > usually say that the precise function of the Javel Group is not known except > that it seems to have been regarded as a place at which rubbish of all > types, including dung-heaps that were past their sell-by date, could be dumped > in the river in mediaeval times. I have to say I am rather sceptical about > the dung heaps as they usually had a ready sale to farmer who came to town > to buy them up and then spread on their fields. Anyway, the Javel Group > does seem to have provided a ready access place to the river, somewhere > where the banks were not built up into a quay, nor lined with buildings, but > could be considerred as forming something like a modern slipway. > >