Hi Bill, Do not discount two sons named the same from different marriages. I have two instances - One in the 1800s - two Williams born to the same parents, both alive at the same time (from census). One in the twentieth century, couple had a son called Peter, he survived, they then divorced, Mum married again and guess what, she called one of her new sons Peter who also survived - so two sons from the same mother both named Peter. Happy hunting, Annette WATSON Lismore Australia At 11:02 AM 15/09/2014, you wrote: >William is my 6x grandfather, I know nothing of his parents, he married in >Tanfield when he was 37 years of age to Isabel Ramsay/Ramshaw. I have always >thought he was rather old to be marrying for the first time but have been >unable to find an earlier marriage. It was suggested to me several years ago >by a lady in New Zealand that he did marry earlier and had four children >that she knew of, although she did not know of a second marriage. I lost her >data & address when I suffered a lightning strike on the house which >destroyed my hard disk. There appeared to be a son born to each marriage >with the same name the earlier one surviving until after the birth of the >second one. Hence my doubt that the marriages were for the same person. > >I seek help in establishing or otherwise the earlier marriage etc. Any & all >help advice offered will be greatly appreciated. > >Regards, > >Bill Adams in Sri Lanka > >.. >Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. >Please introduce yourself at the top of every post. > >The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at >http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi all I may have said this before on this site - in which case I apologise for repetition - but I am with Geoff and other listers on this. In a textbook presented by an Australian university a couple of the reasons for transportation were that, because hanging was handed down for so many offences the prisons could not keep up with the demand (prisons nowhere as near commonplace as nowadays) that an alternative was needed. We note that even the transportation alternative was struggling, hence the prison hulks. One of the other reasons, by the by, was that our government thought that the penal colonies in Aus could provide wood for the Royal Navy ships. Regrettably, the Australian wood was found to be unsuitable. Oops! As a matter of interest - were all the transportees taken down south to be shipped or were some taken direct from northern ports eg from the Tyne? Regards Glenda glendalight@manx.net

Bill William & Isabel are my 5X gt grandparents. They married at Whickham 7 Jun 1747 & had children Francis, William, John, Anne, Robert, Isabel (all baptised at Whickham). William was buried at Whickham on 25 May 1805. I've not found an earlier marriage for William, but this is not a branch I've looked at very closely. Brian On 15/09/2014 02:02, Bill Adams via wrote: > William is my 6x grandfather, I know nothing of his parents, he married in > Tanfield when he was 37 years of age to Isabel Ramsay/Ramshaw. I have always > thought he was rather old to be marrying for the first time but have been > unable to find an earlier marriage. It was suggested to me several years ago > by a lady in New Zealand that he did marry earlier and had four children > that she knew of, although she did not know of a second marriage. I lost her > data & address when I suffered a lightning strike on the house which > destroyed my hard disk. There appeared to be a son born to each marriage > with the same name the earlier one surviving until after the birth of the > second one. Hence my doubt that the marriages were for the same person. -- Brian Pears (Gateshead)

http://wiki.prov.vic.gov.au/index.php/Ballarat_Benevolent_Asylum_Register http://www.ballarathistoricalsociety.com/collection/hospitalRecords/Ballarat%20Benevolent%20Society.htm Hi, I realize that this is a slightly off-list posting, but thought this may be of interest and help to people on the list as some of the inmates note their birth place as Northumberland. The Registers give some good information - names, occupation, residence, birth place, age, parents’ names, religion, marriage status, religion, date of arrival in Victoria, dates in & out of Asylum, remarks. Hope this is of some interest and assistance. Good hunting, Brett Weinberg Buninyong, Victoria, Australia

Now we really are drifting off topic. Please let's stick to matters relating specifically to Northumberland & Co Durham. -- Brian Pears (Gateshead)

William is my 6x grandfather, I know nothing of his parents, he married in Tanfield when he was 37 years of age to Isabel Ramsay/Ramshaw. I have always thought he was rather old to be marrying for the first time but have been unable to find an earlier marriage. It was suggested to me several years ago by a lady in New Zealand that he did marry earlier and had four children that she knew of, although she did not know of a second marriage. I lost her data & address when I suffered a lightning strike on the house which destroyed my hard disk. There appeared to be a son born to each marriage with the same name the earlier one surviving until after the birth of the second one. Hence my doubt that the marriages were for the same person. I seek help in establishing or otherwise the earlier marriage etc. Any & all help advice offered will be greatly appreciated. Regards, Bill Adams in Sri Lanka

Bill: I see there was a wedding at Lanchester in 1835 between a William Thirlaway and an Elizabeth Burnip. Perhaps that was the one referred to by your previous correspondent. I also noted a wedding which might just have been quoted by someone although it was clearly too early for someone born in 1710. That was the wedding at Jarrow on 14 April 1722 of a William Thirlaway who was specifically described as "of Lamesley". The bride's name was Mary Scaife Gray. Geoff Nicholson -----Original Message----- From: Bill Adams via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> To: NORTHUMBRIA <NORTHUMBRIA@rootsweb.com> Sent: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 2:12 Subject: [NMB] William Thirlaway born 1710 in Lamesley William is my 6x grandfather, I know nothing of his parents, he married in Tanfield when he was 37 years of age to Isabel Ramsay/Ramshaw. I have always thought he was rather old to be marrying for the first time but have been unable to find an earlier marriage. It was suggested to me several years ago by a lady in New Zealand that he did marry earlier and had four children that she knew of, although she did not know of a second marriage. I lost her data & address when I suffered a lightning strike on the house which destroyed my hard disk. There appeared to be a son born to each marriage with the same name the earlier one surviving until after the birth of the second one. Hence my doubt that the marriages were for the same person. I seek help in establishing or otherwise the earlier marriage etc. Any & all help advice offered will be greatly appreciated. Regards, Bill Adams in Sri Lanka .. Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please introduce yourself at the top of every post. The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I've certainly read (true or not, I'm not sure) that in some instances people committed crimes in the hope of being transported to Australia. Perhaps to follow a spouse. Seems a high risk strategy! Rosemary Ackroyd

Hi Ros Tickets of leave were a parole of sorts and conditional, one being they could not leave the colony but did enable other freedoms such as to marry There is no doubt that some did do well for themselves but equally others didn't But this being rather off topic for the list, I will cease there :-) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/09/2014 20:02, Ros Dunning wrote: > I think convicts were given something called a "ticket of leave" and > that meant they were free. (Good behaviour could come into it).My > understanding is that some that subsequently settled in Australia did > very well for themselves > > I was investigating a rather unusual surname for a friend of mine - some > holders of that surname were transported for their part in the Swing > Riots in Sussex. Once they got their ticket of leave they became > extremely prosperous, held positions of responsibilty, and now there are > streets named after them > > Ros

Thanks Nivard and Ros, That explains it more clearly. Regards David On 14 September 2014 20:02, Ros Dunning via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> wrote: > I think convicts were given something called a "ticket of leave" and that > meant they were free. (Good behaviour could come into it).My understanding > is that some that subsequently settled in Australia did very well for > themselves > > I was investigating a rather unusual surname for a friend of mine - some > holders of that surname were transported for their part in the Swing Riots > in Sussex. Once they got their ticket of leave they became extremely > prosperous, held positions of responsibilty, and now there are streets > named after them > > Ros > > ________________________________________ > From: northumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com [northumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com] > on behalf of Nivard Ovington via [northumbria@rootsweb.com] > Sent: 14 September 2014 17:07 > To: northumbria@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records > > Hi David > > Until 1835 returning from transportation before the term of > transportation was completed, was a capital offence > > Those who served the term in full were free to return at their own expense > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 14/09/2014 16:27, David Caisley via wrote: > > Geoff, > > > > Could you explain what you mean by "To return from transportation was > > officially punishable by death but that was not always enforced." > > > > I was under the impression that once an offender had served his sentence > > and returned from transportation he was a free man or woman. > > > > regards > > > > David Caisley > .. > Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please > introduce yourself at the top of every post. > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered > safely by Mimecast. > For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > .. > Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please > introduce yourself at the top of every post. > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I think convicts were given something called a "ticket of leave" and that meant they were free. (Good behaviour could come into it).My understanding is that some that subsequently settled in Australia did very well for themselves I was investigating a rather unusual surname for a friend of mine - some holders of that surname were transported for their part in the Swing Riots in Sussex. Once they got their ticket of leave they became extremely prosperous, held positions of responsibilty, and now there are streets named after them Ros ________________________________________ From: northumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com [northumbria-bounces@rootsweb.com] on behalf of Nivard Ovington via [northumbria@rootsweb.com] Sent: 14 September 2014 17:07 To: northumbria@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records Hi David Until 1835 returning from transportation before the term of transportation was completed, was a capital offence Those who served the term in full were free to return at their own expense Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/09/2014 16:27, David Caisley via wrote: > Geoff, > > Could you explain what you mean by "To return from transportation was > officially punishable by death but that was not always enforced." > > I was under the impression that once an offender had served his sentence > and returned from transportation he was a free man or woman. > > regards > > David Caisley .. Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please introduce yourself at the top of every post. The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This email has been scanned for email related threats and delivered safely by Mimecast. For more information please visit http://www.mimecast.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi David Until 1835 returning from transportation before the term of transportation was completed, was a capital offence Those who served the term in full were free to return at their own expense Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 14/09/2014 16:27, David Caisley via wrote: > Geoff, > > Could you explain what you mean by "To return from transportation was > officially punishable by death but that was not always enforced." > > I was under the impression that once an offender had served his sentence > and returned from transportation he was a free man or woman. > > regards > > David Caisley

On 14/09/2014 16:38, Bruce Dodd via wrote: > I see that adding the word via is now the usual practice on this site. > > I seem to have lost the messages that explained the reason, and gave > instructions for us not-so-sharp users. > > Would you mind repeating them, plea Bruce As far as the user is concerned, Rootsweb lists now work as they did before the configuration changes were introduced. To post to the list - address an email to NORTHUMBRIA@rootsweb.com To reply to a post - hit the Reply button The word via was a necessary compromise - just ignore it. Brian -- Brian Pears (Gateshead)

Geoff, Could you explain what you mean by "To return from transportation was officially punishable by death but that was not always enforced." I was under the impression that once an offender had served his sentence and returned from transportation he was a free man or woman. regards David Caisley On 14 September 2014 15:39, Geoff Nicholson via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Yes, for some (a very few) transportation was the key to forging a new > life through hard work, and for a few of them, that new life could lead on > to financial and social success. To return from transportation was > officially punishable by death but that was not always enforced. There was > one case in Co Durham in the mid-19th century where a man had been caught > and found guilty of stealing hay from a field. The judge said that he had > thought at first of sentencing him to transportation. However, as the > prisoner had already been transported twice, and had returned each time, he > thought that would not be effective and therefore he imposed a prison > sentence instead. > > Geoff Nicholson > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Lynch via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> > To: 'Rosemary Ackroyd' <missy00717@hotmail.com>; 'Northumberland Mailing > List' <northumbria@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sun, 14 Sep 2014 13:44 > Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records > > > Well, I can certainly tell you that the brother of an ancestor of mine from > Bedfordshire who was sentenced to transportation to Australia for seven > years > served his time, stayed on and sent for other members of his family. Their > descendants are there still :-) > > John Lynch > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rosemary Ackroyd [mailto:missy00717@hotmail.com] > Sent: 14 September 2014 11:57 > To: John Lynch; Northumberland Mailing List > Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records > > I've certainly read (true or not, I'm not sure) that in some instances > people > committed crimes in the hope of being transported to Australia. Perhaps to > follow a spouse. > > Seems a high risk strategy! > > Rosemary Ackroyd > > > .. > Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please > introduce yourself at the top of every post. > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > > > .. > Please quote the minimum necessary to put your reply on context. Please > introduce yourself at the top of every post. > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Apologies if I have missed anyone already mentioning this, but for anyone interested in this subject, it is worth doing a search in the Class HO47 in the National Archives catalogue (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ ). This is the Home Office Judges Reports on criminals. Searching on 'HO47 AND Durham' lists quite a number of reports on sentences from Durham, and many of these items concern pleas for clemency. The list only provides a summary. The actual documents give further details, I have one for a Whitby case which outlines the case, and lists reasons for and against clemency, and a large list of local people supporting the plea. The following is an example from the catalogue: "HO 47/8/58 1789 Aug 11 Report of John Wilson on 2 prisoners capitally convicted/sentenced at Durham Assizes and recommended for mercy on the conditions set against their names: 1. Elizabeth Jones alias Horner, convicted on 31 July 1787 but sentenced on 15 July 1788, for felony and house breaking. Grounds for clemency: served 2 years in prison and 'some favourable Circumstances' have appeared. Initial sentence: death. Recommendation: free pardon. 2. John Adamson, convicted on 15 July 1788, for felony and sheep stealing. Grounds for clemency: 'some favourable Circumstances' have appeared. Initial sentence: death. Recommendation: 14 years transportation." Dave

Well, I can certainly tell you that the brother of an ancestor of mine from Bedfordshire who was sentenced to transportation to Australia for seven years served his time, stayed on and sent for other members of his family. Their descendants are there still :-) John Lynch -----Original Message----- From: Rosemary Ackroyd [mailto:missy00717@hotmail.com] Sent: 14 September 2014 11:57 To: John Lynch; Northumberland Mailing List Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records I've certainly read (true or not, I'm not sure) that in some instances people committed crimes in the hope of being transported to Australia. Perhaps to follow a spouse. Seems a high risk strategy! Rosemary Ackroyd

And another thing Geoff, it only lists executions, not all the crimes that occurred. Sheila Crocheters are to be given all the time and stash they require, other's are to pick up the slack these noble people cannot get too. copyright.....by me...the crocheter -----Original Message----- From: Geoff Nicholson via Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 1:33 AM To: doreenwelch@yahoo.ca ; northumbria@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records Doreen: I would say the opposite. In the late 18th and early 19th century there was always the threat of hanging if one committed a serious crime, but in fact very few of those who did really were hanged. Some 30 years ago (guess) John Smith published a paper in the Bulletin of Durham County LHS in which he followed up all cases in that period in Durham where someone had been indicted of a capital offence. Some were never brought to court ("no bill"). Others were tried and found not guilty. Others were found guilty of a capital offence but not sentenced to capital punishment - mostly transported. Of those sentenced to death, most were reprieved, either upon appeal or at the last minute before execution. Only about 4% (another guess) of those capitally indicted are known to have been executed. Of course the real proportion may have been higher than that as some cases could not be followed right through and we don't know what happened top the people concerned. However, there were enough cases to be statistically impressive and the result was a number around the 4% I have quoted. It is no doubt worthwhile asking ourselves why the general impression is that hanging was used more often then it really was. I would suggest that some of the answer may be that, in the days of public execution, a hanging was the occasion for a large crowd to gather and effectively a "party" would be held. That is the sort of thing one doesn't forget. It is interesting that, later on, it was Miners' Galas which produced scenes in the streets of Durham which had previously been found only at executions. Hangings were also the occasion for the publication of large amounts of handbills and other ephemera by the opportunist printers of Durham (or Newcastle, wherever the execution was to be). Everything from the prisoners' confession to poems describing his (or her) crime, would be hawked around the crowds for a penny or two. Although intended to serve on that day alone, some of them would be taken home and kept as a souvenir of the great day out, especially by those who could actually read, and understand, them. That would keep the memory of the execution alive until the handbill finally fell to pieces. Geoff Nicholson

I looked at it too Doreen, and what I found was so sad was the young age of some of them. I didn’t see any of the names in my family line, but guess you never know when you keep going back. Sheila Crocheters are to be given all the time and stash they require, other's are to pick up the slack these noble people cannot get too. copyright.....by me...the crocheter -----Original Message----- From: Doreen Welch via Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 9:46 AM One didn't have to step very far at all over the lines to get oneself hanged! Wow! Makes that think. Doreen ________________________________ From: Trevor via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> To: Trudi Barr <tabarr@shaw.ca>; "northumbria@rootsweb.com" <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, September 5, 2014 3:24 AM Subject: Re: [NMB] Execution Records Many thanks for locating that source, Trudi. It's a pretty brutal punishment, eh? Trevor. On Thursday, September 4, 2014, Trudi Barr via <northumbria@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi again Trevor, >

I see that adding the word via is now the usual practice on this site. I seem to have lost the messages that explained the reason, and gave instructions for us not-so-sharp users. Would you mind repeating them, please? Bruce Dodd Via

Geoff I have read--but can't remember where--that people were sometimes offered the choice of hanging or transportation to the Americas--and that some refused transportation. Do you happen to know whether that is true? John Lynch Doreen: I would say the opposite. In the late 18th and early 19th century there was always the threat of hanging if one committed a serious crime, but in fact very few of those who did really were hanged. Some 30 years ago (guess) John Smith published a paper in the Bulletin of Durham County LHS in which he followed up all cases in that period in Durham where someone had been indicted of a capital offence. Some were never brought to court ("no bill"). Others were tried and found not guilty. Others were found guilty of a capital offence but not sentenced to capital punishment - mostly transported. Of those sentenced to death, most were reprieved, either upon appeal or at the last minute before execution. Only about 4% (another guess) of those capitally indicted are known to have been executed. Of course the real proportion may have been higher than that as some cases could not be followed right through and we don't know what happened top the people concerned. However, ! there were enough cases to be statistically impressive and the result was a number around the 4% I have quoted.