Hi I'm having difficulty interpreting a place of birth on the 1851 census. The entry is HO107/2397 Folio 437 Page 8 Schedule 27 and the unreadable DOB is that of Mary Ann Speakman aged 10. It reads "???????, Wales". We can't get any clues from other censuses as they give this person's place of birth at various places in Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire. I've put an image of the relevant text temporarily at: http://www.bpears.org.uk/temp/cawthorne.jpg Can anyone please offer any ideas about the place in Wales? Brian -- Brian Pears (Gateshead, UK) http://www.bpears.org.uk/ Joint List Admin NORTHUMBRIA Genealogy Mailing List GENUKI Northumberland Maintainer

Jeff, Thank you so much for that. It would seem appropriate to live near so much woodland as grandfather was a gamekeeper. I shall see if I can get my sons to visit and take a picture next summer. Brenda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Piper" <jeff@piper22.freeserve.co.uk> To: <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 5:31 PM Subject: Re: [NMB] Langley Moor Cottage/Farm,Annfield Plain. > Langley Moor is still signposted off the A693 just south of New Kyo and > is a small road which leads to a row of 6 houses. > Ther can been seen clearly on googlemaps > http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.857979,-1.717697&spn=0.001726,0.005681&t=h&z=18 > > Jeff > Stanley > Co. Durham > Land of the Prince Bishops > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jeffpiper/ > > NEGenealogy@aol.com wrote: >> >> In a message dated 05/12/2009 15:44:27 GMT Standard Time, >> brenda.davison@virgin.net writes: >> >> Her address 1911 was Langley Moor Cottage,Annfield Plain. The >> Registration >> District was Lanchester ,the Parish South Moor.I have looked at maps but >> not been able to find a Langley Moor Farm. >> >> >> >> >> Brenda: >> >> First, you may be tempted by the fact that there is a large >> colliery village named Langley Moor within the parish of Brandon. >> However, >> that is many miles south of Annfield Plain and will not be the one you >> want. >> >> The Langley Moor in question is to the SE of Annfield Plain and to >> the >> west of South Moor. I have looked at the OS 1st Edition one-inch map of >> the area (Godfrey Edition), from which, although Langley Moor Cottage(s) >> is/are not marked, the general district is as I have said. >> Unfortunately I >> don't have the 2nd edition "25 inch" map (Godfrey Edition) of that >> district, >> though I do have them for surrounding places, which makes me think that >> perhaps Godfrey didn't cover Langley Moor,it being mainly farm land and >> not >> centred on any major settlement. There was/is a wood called "Langley >> Moor >> Plantation", to the west of Quaking Houses, and it does strike me that >> "Quaking Houses" could well be a later nickname, applied to what may >> have >> originally been "Langley Moor Cottages" - but that's just a guess. >> >> From Whellans' Directory (1894), it appears that the district was >> within the parish of Holmside at that time, the parish having been >> formed in >> 1865 from the townships of Greencroft, Tanfield, Kyo, Chester le Street, >> Edmondsley, Langley and Lanchester (this will mean "from all or parts of >> the >> townships of .....), the parish itself having apparently formed a new >> township caled Holmside Township. It was "principally the property of >> the Earl of >> Durham, Miss Allgood, A Wilkinson Esq and George Hobson Esq." Of those, >> the Earl of Durham was a Lambton, the Allgoods are a family still centred >> on >> the lower North Tyne valley in Northumberland, there are several >> Wilkinson >> families around but at least one was a major Roman Catholic land-owning >> family in that part of Co Durham and the Hobsons may have had a >> connection >> with the village of Hobson just south of Burnopfield. South Moor (this >> could >> well have originated as "South Langley Moor") Colliery was being worked >> in >> 1894 by "Messrs Hedley & Co". >> >> It could be that the source of the name Langley is "Langley Castle", >> a >> mediaeval house, the remains of which are NW of Witton Gilbert, only a >> few >> miles from Langley Moor as the (mediaeval) crow flies. >> >> Geoff >> Nicholson >> >> >> >> The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at >> http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

How about Nantgwin? There is such a place in the list of Welsh place names. It is in South Wales. Joan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Pears" <bp@bpears.org.uk> To: <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 19:09 Subject: [NMB] Place of Birth ? > > Hi > > I'm having difficulty interpreting a place of birth on the 1851 > census. The entry is > > HO107/2397 Folio 437 Page 8 Schedule 27 > > and the unreadable DOB is that of Mary Ann Speakman aged 10. It > reads "???????, Wales". We can't get any clues from other censuses > as they give this person's place of birth at various places in > Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire. > > I've put an image of the relevant text temporarily at: > > http://www.bpears.org.uk/temp/cawthorne.jpg > > Can anyone please offer any ideas about the place in Wales? > > Brian > -- > Brian Pears (Gateshead, UK) http://www.bpears.org.uk/ > Joint List Admin NORTHUMBRIA Genealogy Mailing List > GENUKI Northumberland Maintainer > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The Orange Wasps wrote: >> On the 1911 Census for Gateshead the enumerator has pencilled in the name >> of an employer. It looks like Scott & Moritz, the individual is employed >> as a Machine Man. Can anyone provide any information on the correct name >> and nature of business of this company? >> >> Many thanks Ruth You sent this same query just 5 days ago. If you don't get replies to a query, you should normally wait at least a month before repeating it. In this instance however the lack of response is presumably due to the fact that you didn't include the full reference for the entry in question, so nobody had any way of locating it to examine the annotation and give their opinion. So perhaps you might like to resend the query a third time, but this time with the full reference. Brian -- Brian Pears (Gateshead, UK) http://www.bpears.org.uk/ Joint List Admin NORTHUMBRIA Genealogy Mailing List GENUKI Northumberland Maintainer

Langley Moor is still signposted off the A693 just south of New Kyo and is a small road which leads to a row of 6 houses. Ther can been seen clearly on googlemaps http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.857979,-1.717697&spn=0.001726,0.005681&t=h&z=18 Jeff Stanley Co. Durham Land of the Prince Bishops http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jeffpiper/ NEGenealogy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 05/12/2009 15:44:27 GMT Standard Time, > brenda.davison@virgin.net writes: > > Her address 1911 was Langley Moor Cottage,Annfield Plain. The Registration > District was Lanchester ,the Parish South Moor.I have looked at maps but > not been able to find a Langley Moor Farm. > > > > > Brenda: > > First, you may be tempted by the fact that there is a large > colliery village named Langley Moor within the parish of Brandon. However, > that is many miles south of Annfield Plain and will not be the one you want. > > The Langley Moor in question is to the SE of Annfield Plain and to the > west of South Moor. I have looked at the OS 1st Edition one-inch map of > the area (Godfrey Edition), from which, although Langley Moor Cottage(s) > is/are not marked, the general district is as I have said. Unfortunately I > don't have the 2nd edition "25 inch" map (Godfrey Edition) of that district, > though I do have them for surrounding places, which makes me think that > perhaps Godfrey didn't cover Langley Moor,it being mainly farm land and not > centred on any major settlement. There was/is a wood called "Langley Moor > Plantation", to the west of Quaking Houses, and it does strike me that > "Quaking Houses" could well be a later nickname, applied to what may have > originally been "Langley Moor Cottages" - but that's just a guess. > > From Whellans' Directory (1894), it appears that the district was > within the parish of Holmside at that time, the parish having been formed in > 1865 from the townships of Greencroft, Tanfield, Kyo, Chester le Street, > Edmondsley, Langley and Lanchester (this will mean "from all or parts of the > townships of .....), the parish itself having apparently formed a new > township caled Holmside Township. It was "principally the property of the Earl of > Durham, Miss Allgood, A Wilkinson Esq and George Hobson Esq." Of those, > the Earl of Durham was a Lambton, the Allgoods are a family still centred on > the lower North Tyne valley in Northumberland, there are several Wilkinson > families around but at least one was a major Roman Catholic land-owning > family in that part of Co Durham and the Hobsons may have had a connection > with the village of Hobson just south of Burnopfield. South Moor (this could > well have originated as "South Langley Moor") Colliery was being worked in > 1894 by "Messrs Hedley & Co". > > It could be that the source of the name Langley is "Langley Castle", a > mediaeval house, the remains of which are NW of Witton Gilbert, only a few > miles from Langley Moor as the (mediaeval) crow flies. > > Geoff > Nicholson > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >

> On the 1911 Census for Gateshead the enumerator has pencilled in the name > of an employer. It looks like Scott & Moritz, the individual is employed > as a Machine Man. Can anyone provide any information on the correct name > and nature of business of this company? > > Many thanks > > Ruth in Hambledon, Hampshire > "The Cradle of Cricket" >

Hello Geoff. That is a very comprehensive reply! Many thanks. This does all tie in with the family. We had three generations of gamekeepers - all George Fo(r)sters Great grandfather , I understand, was head keeper for the Earl of Durham and the family lived for some time at Langley Old Hall.On his retirement he returned to the place of his earlier years and named his house Langley House,,Old Penshaw, which housed the Fosters until very recently. My grandfather was married at All Saints Witton Gilbert so I am thinking now that they , in fact , did not move around too far despite all the different registration districts and parishes. Again many thanks for your help. Brenda Davison

In a message dated 05/12/2009 15:44:27 GMT Standard Time, brenda.davison@virgin.net writes: Her address 1911 was Langley Moor Cottage,Annfield Plain. The Registration District was Lanchester ,the Parish South Moor.I have looked at maps but not been able to find a Langley Moor Farm. Brenda: First, you may be tempted by the fact that there is a large colliery village named Langley Moor within the parish of Brandon. However, that is many miles south of Annfield Plain and will not be the one you want. The Langley Moor in question is to the SE of Annfield Plain and to the west of South Moor. I have looked at the OS 1st Edition one-inch map of the area (Godfrey Edition), from which, although Langley Moor Cottage(s) is/are not marked, the general district is as I have said. Unfortunately I don't have the 2nd edition "25 inch" map (Godfrey Edition) of that district, though I do have them for surrounding places, which makes me think that perhaps Godfrey didn't cover Langley Moor,it being mainly farm land and not centred on any major settlement. There was/is a wood called "Langley Moor Plantation", to the west of Quaking Houses, and it does strike me that "Quaking Houses" could well be a later nickname, applied to what may have originally been "Langley Moor Cottages" - but that's just a guess. From Whellans' Directory (1894), it appears that the district was within the parish of Holmside at that time, the parish having been formed in 1865 from the townships of Greencroft, Tanfield, Kyo, Chester le Street, Edmondsley, Langley and Lanchester (this will mean "from all or parts of the townships of .....), the parish itself having apparently formed a new township caled Holmside Township. It was "principally the property of the Earl of Durham, Miss Allgood, A Wilkinson Esq and George Hobson Esq." Of those, the Earl of Durham was a Lambton, the Allgoods are a family still centred on the lower North Tyne valley in Northumberland, there are several Wilkinson families around but at least one was a major Roman Catholic land-owning family in that part of Co Durham and the Hobsons may have had a connection with the village of Hobson just south of Burnopfield. South Moor (this could well have originated as "South Langley Moor") Colliery was being worked in 1894 by "Messrs Hedley & Co". It could be that the source of the name Langley is "Langley Castle", a mediaeval house, the remains of which are NW of Witton Gilbert, only a few miles from Langley Moor as the (mediaeval) crow flies. Geoff Nicholson

Hello, On the 1911 census my mother Cicely Foster appears for the first time aged 3 with her parents George and Cicely and siblings George, Lillian and Elsie. She was born Bottlebank Leadgate (some of you may remember my request for info. for this address recently!!) Her address 1911 was Langley Moor Cottage,Annfield Plain. The Registration District was Lanchester ,the Parish South Moor.I have looked at maps but not been able to find a Langley Moor Farm. Her father was ''under gamkeeper''. Any insight into the address and who he may have worked for would be much appreciated. I know that by the 1921 census they will all have moved again to Marr near Doncaster where grandfather was a gamkeeper.!! Brenda Davison in Suffolk

I am not getting messages from the list at the minute but started reading a book last night that I thought might help although it is earlier than the lister wanted. My copy is from Newcastle central. Please on't order it straight away as it's a longun. It's calle Nature's Engraver by Jenny Urglow and about the life of Thomas Bewick. Life at Cherryburn is vivily escribe and of course becauue it was the Bewick family there are pictures even of a man weeing against a tree. Her writing style is very warm and easy to follow and she has Bewick's talent to evoke a scene. isbn 978 0 571 22375 6 My husband's family may have follwed a typical local movement that people may wish to bear in mind. When the farmrs of Allndale were unable to combine lead smelting with farming imes became very har in th late 1800s. Thaat is when so many emigrated to Canada. Our family tried Brampton unsuccesfully and killed all the rabbits on their land. Hearing of their plight a old neighbour said there was money to be made from cowmen on Tyneside as Armstrong wanted all his workers to drink 2 pints of milk a ay to line their stomachs against lead poisoning. I on't kow if Lord Armstrong paid or not. Anyway the great grandad moved to Scotswood as a herdsman and then his old neighbour Blackett Ord from Whitfield set him and the family up at umpling Hall, West Denton, Deleval farms etc. I think it's interting how integrated Tyneside was from its rural hinterland compare with today,, Deb

Dear Geoff Yes you are quite right, I left out a lot of stuff because I was wary of writing a really long email that was unclear and lost it's point. The Attis family were mainly in Sunderland and later in Houghton le Spring area (Penshaw); unfortunately, I haven't seen transcripts of all the censuses (only indexes for 1841 and 1851) so I don't have occupations for everyone only dates/places of birth; where I have information on occupation it is usually cordwainer/shoe-maker (sometimes with employees, so I suppose relatively well-off family), but also a "block and mast maker" I have not found wills on National Archive website, didn't know where else to look. Since you have mentioned Monumental Inscriptions I have emailed a lady who is named on the Durham Look-up Exchange, and hopefully she can help. I've also contacted the other subscriber who say they have Michael and Margaret in their tree, so between us we may work it out. I'm still learning all this, so any other tips you have I am willing to learn .... Christel --- On Wed, 2/12/09, NEGenealogy@aol.com <NEGenealogy@aol.com> wrote: > From: NEGenealogy@aol.com <NEGenealogy@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [NMB] (Newark) Michael Attis > To: northumbria@rootsweb.com > Date: Wednesday, 2 December, 2009, 18:23 > > >             Both  census > ages and ages as reported at death are notoriously > unreliable, so a  two-year difference could be readily > acceptable, all > other things being equal,  as they say.  However, > before committing myself, I - > and I would expect  most other subscribers to this > list - would want to have > some other background  information, to see whether > what you suggest sounds > likely, or plausible.   Where, for instance, > did these events take place?  > What were the  occupations in each case?  These > should all be part of the > "mix" that helps  us decide what really > happened.  You also don't mention > whether they were  from the sort of families that were > likely to (a) leave Wills > and (b) be  commemorated by a gravestone in their > local churchyard, nor > whether, if that is  the case, you have checked on > either.  Again, if Wills and > stones are  likely to exist they should at least have > been looked for, as > they might well  yeild the very clue that would answer > your questions. > >                 >                 >                 >                 > Geoff  > Nicholson > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

Thanks for taking the time to respond Geoff, I have already forwarded this info to the questioner and hope it suffices! Personally I rather like the thought, that it is a bit of a mystery. Norman > > > > Norman: > > I don't know about the hypochlorite but local history books > usually say that the precise function of the Javel Group is not known except > that it seems to have been regarded as a place at which rubbish of all > types, including dung-heaps that were past their sell-by date, could be dumped > in the river in mediaeval times. I have to say I am rather sceptical about > the dung heaps as they usually had a ready sale to farmer who came to town > to buy them up and then spread on their fields. Anyway, the Javel Group > does seem to have provided a ready access place to the river, somewhere > where the banks were not built up into a quay, nor lined with buildings, but > could be considerred as forming something like a modern slipway. > >

In a message dated 02/12/2009 18:48:12 GMT Standard Time, ronica32@usamedia.tv writes: Would these publications still be under the domain of the Northumberland Local History Society and, if so, are they still available? Veronica Thornton Hagin northern California Veronica: As you state, they were all published by Frank Graham who also published many more local history books. Some of his books were modern ones, newly-written, sometimes by himself but including ones by other local authors. Others were reprints of books published some time ago and now rare in their original form. Frank Graham died around then and although there was an attempt to continue his business very little that was new was ever published under his imprint again. Frank Graham was publishing, very roughly 1965-1990. His own major interest was apparently in engravings of the north-east, of which many were produced in the 19th century and before, often to illustrate other local history books, and Graham built up a large collection of originals of those engravings (I wonder what happened to it?) The opriginal query on this thread was on books about village life and farming life, which is hardly answered by engravings of stately homes and mediaeval castles, but nevertheless I must mention a pair of books which deserve to be better-known. They are "Nostalgioc Views of the North" by John Moreels. Mr Moreels (a recent speaker at several branches of the NDFHS!) took over the old Ward Philipson stationery business and discovered masses of very fragile old photographic plates in their attics. He is slowly working through them, taking prints and cataloguing them, and his two volumes published so far (1998 and 1999, may yet be just the start of a lengthy series. The ISBNs are 0 9534224 0 2 and 0 9534224 1 0. They contain a mixture of engravings and of old photos and although there are some rural scenes, the majority are of life in the town (specifically THE Toon, ie Newcastle!) Geoff Nicholson

Thank so much Geoff It is amazing to hear so much local history. I am yet to link the two families, but I have many Elsdon families living in these streets in St John and St Nicholas and the more I can learn about how Newcastle fitted together, the more interesting it gets. Judith ----- Original Message ----- From: <NEGenealogy@aol.com> To: <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 5:24 AM Subject: Re: [NMB] Back Row and High Friars St in Newcastle > > In a message dated 01/12/2009 05:13:41 GMT Standard Time, > pnjmillington@bigpond.com writes: > > Hi, I have a hairdresser, James Elsdon in High Friars St, Newcastle St > John, > and a cordwainer, Stephen Elsdon in Back Row, Newcastle St John from > 1790-1820. > > Does anyone know where Back Row was? I can see the modern Friars St but > not > Back Row on the maps. > > Judith > > > > > Judith: > > If you can see a modern "Friar Street" on maps, be very cautious. > There are two Friar Streets in the centre of Newcastle. > > The most prominent, and so most likely to get onto a map is Low Friar > Street, which runs from Fenkle Street (near Charlotte Square) to Newgate > Street, which it meets at the modern entertainment/leisure complex caled > The > Gate. Its name refers to the Friars from the Blackfriars monastery, the > ruins of which are nearby. > > High Friar Street used to run east from the other side of Newgate > Street, but further north, near the New Gate itself, and is supposed to > have > been the route by which the Grey Friars from their establishment on the > west > side of Pilgrim Street, near Pilgrim Street Gate, used to access St > Andrew's church. When Blackett Street was built the eastern end of High > Friar > Street was merged into it, but when Anderson Place, the later embodient > of > what had originally been the Grey Friars Monastery, was demolished and > its > attached land used to build some of what is now "Grainger Town", that and > of > High Friar Street was recreated a few yards further south, so that it no > longer lined up quite conveniently with its western end, from which it > was > then separated by the tops of Grey Street and Grainger Street and the > imposing Grey's Monument. Now that eastern end still exists but the > older, > western, end was flattened c1970 by part of the Eldon Square shopping > centre, > inside which the shopping mall which more or less covers the same ground > is > officially named "High Friars" (I have yet to hear anyone actually call > it > that, but then I'm not the shopaholic type). > > Back Row was further south again and linked the bottom part of > Westgate Road with St Nicholas Street. That district was competely > altered in the > middle of the 19th century by the building of the High Level Bridge > (opened 1849) and the associated lines, embankments, etc, at which time > Back Row > disappeared entirely. It's eastern end was in St Nicholas Street, > opposite the Black Gate, where Westgate Road now emerges, and its western > end > lined up with the Postern, which was more or less where Forth Street is > today. > That means that most of its route is now under the main London to > Edinburgh railway line and will be travelled by rail travellers bound for > places > north of Newcastle just after they leave Newcastle Central Station. Come > to > think of it, that means it will also be under what was for many years > billed as "the largest level crossing in the world", a complex of points > between > the station platforms and the Castle Keep, where the numerous lines all > have branches leading across the others and onto the High Level Bridge.. > > Geoff Nicholson > > > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 02/12/2009 17:35:01 GMT Standard Time, christelhelen@yahoo.co.uk writes: I have a Newark Michael Attis (son of Hugh and Sarah) born 11 jan 1773, baptised 26 Sep that year. He is an elder brother to the Hugh Attis who is the father of the Thomas Aittis I asked about previously ... I have been trying to join up this branch of the family to one I have managed to piece together which includes a Michael Attis who married Margaret Clark in 1795; 1841 and 1851 census puts his year of birth around 1771, death at 1855. Christel: Both census ages and ages as reported at death are notoriously unreliable, so a two-year difference could be readily acceptable, all other things being equal, as they say. However, before committing myself, I - and I would expect most other subscribers to this list - would want to have some other background information, to see whether what you suggest sounds likely, or plausible. Where, for instance, did these events take place? What were the occupations in each case? These should all be part of the "mix" that helps us decide what really happened. You also don't mention whether they were from the sort of families that were likely to (a) leave Wills and (b) be commemorated by a gravestone in their local churchyard, nor whether, if that is the case, you have checked on either. Again, if Wills and stones are likely to exist they should at least have been looked for, as they might well yeild the very clue that would answer your questions. Geoff Nicholson

Geoff, I do enjoy your notes on local history. It can also be good fun as well as per the following. Yesterday I took a Northumbrian pal down to the Quayside, so he could test his photographic skills. All went well until we passed under the High Level Bridge and saw a prominent marker in the centre of the roundabout, it was labelled 'Javel Groupe' but with no further explanation. What's that about I was asked, not having a clue, I offered up .....most likely the name of a prominent industrialist.....probably Scandanavian. Well he wasn't having that......No, more likely to do with the Boer War. Well I wasn't having that and so the discussion.....argument continued, with him eventually throwing down the challenge, that as I was the local, he would give me 24 hours to come up with the correct answer! Well last night after frantic Googling I discovered 1. Javel Groupe was the name of a narrow alley that used to run down to the river 2. A groupe was a channel to carry water. 3. Javel was a weak sodium hypochlorite solution. So most likely the alley was built over a chemical waste outlet to the Tyne. Mystery solved, I think, but then....Why would it have been deemed necessary to erect a fairly expensive structure to mark a narrow alley? Norman NEGenealogy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 02/12/2009 02:55:58 GMT Standard Time, > pnjmillington@bigpond.com writes: > > It is amazing to hear so much local history. > > >

On 2/12/09 09:29, "NEGenealogy@aol.com" <NEGenealogy@aol.com> wrote: > More down-to-earth, though, I do think that genealogy, while of some > interest in itself, being only a list of names, dates and relationships, > usually needs a lot of background information to give it life, and that all > comes from local history - all aspects of it - Same thing we learned many years ago .. Family History is much more than the genealogy. Righth now I am reading about thhe Farmtouns of Scotland and would likek to find a simnilar book relating the tale of fram life in Northumbverland around 1880 to 1890 Does anyone know of a book or series of articles about life on Northumberland farms at that time? Farming had boomed for most of the century but there was a major depression in the final decades. This affected many of our ancestors who had to move from country to town and many to emigrate. Robin

On Dec 2, 2009, at 5:57 AM, NEGenealogy@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 02/12/2009 11:58:55 GMT Standard Time, > robin@scottishwool.com writes: > > around 1880 to 1890 > > Does anyone know of a book or series of articles about life on > Northumberland farms at that time? > > When I last visited Northumberland in 1991, I picked up a wonderful booklet published by FRANK GRAHAM, 6 Queen's Terrace, Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PL Printed by Howe Brothers (Gateshead) Limited 1978 ISBN O 85983 107 8 NORTHUMBERLAND YESTERYEAR edited by Robin Gard ... "An Album of photographs of life in Northumberland between 1860 & 1930" Copyright Northumberland Local History Society. The booklet contained 111 top quality black/white photographs. The back cover listed 7 more publications; THE ART OF STICK DRESSINGS by Norman Tulip TYNEDALE FROM BLANCHLAND TO CARTER BAR by Frank Graham NEWCASTLE SILVER by Dr. Margaret Gill NEWCASTLE TOWN by R. J. Charleton A LANG WAY TO THE PANSHOP by Thomas Callagham HOUSESTEADS IN THE DAYS OF THE ROMANS THE OLD HALLS, HOUSES and INNS OF NORTHUMBERLAND Would these publications still be under the domain of the Northumberland Local History Society and, if so, are they still available? Veronica Thornton Hagin northern California

Hi, I wonder if you can give some advice. I have a Newark Michael Attis (son of Hugh and Sarah) born 11 jan 1773, baptised 26 Sep that year. He is an elder brother to the Hugh Attis who is the father of the Thomas Aittis I asked about previously ... I have been trying to join up this branch of the family to one I have managed to piece together which includes a Michael Attis who married Margaret Clark in 1795; 1841 and 1851 census puts his year of birth around 1771, death at 1855. Although there are several Michael Attises I couldn't find one that was born c1771 (the closest I found was one born in 1767, son of John - which I am reluctant to accept as it takes me yet another step further from joining my two parts) I should explain why I think they join together ... One of Michael Attis and Margaret Clark 's sons was called Clark, one of their grandsons was called Clark; I have a Clark Hugh Aittis in the other part of my tree (a nephew of Thomas Aittis) ... So I wondered, is Michael Attis c1771, the same man as Newark Michael Attis born 1773 ? ... because if he is I can join the two trees together very nicely What do you think? Many thanks Christel

In a message dated 02/12/2009 12:26:37 GMT Standard Time, npatrick@blueyonder.co.uk writes: 1. Javel Groupe was the name of a narrow alley that used to run down to the river 2. A groupe was a channel to carry water. 3. Javel was a weak sodium hypochlorite solution. So most likely the alley was built over a chemical waste outlet to the Tyne. Mystery solved, I think, but then....Why would it have been deemed necessary to erect a fairly expensive structure to mark a narrow alley? Norman Norman: I don't know about the hypochlorite but local history books usually say that the precise function of the Javel Group is not known except that it seems to have been regarded as a place at which rubbish of all types, including dung-heaps that were past their sell-by date, could be dumped in the river in mediaeval times. I have to say I am rather sceptical about the dung heaps as they usually had a ready sale to farmer who came to town to buy them up and then spread on their fields. Anyway, the Javel Group does seem to have provided a ready access place to the river, somewhere where the banks were not built up into a quay, nor lined with buildings, but could be considerred as forming something like a modern slipway. I also have heard of some sort of overnight jail; or lock-up being there - get too much to drink when down the Quayside one night and you could end up in the Javel Group overnight - but I tend to dismiss that as an obvious guess, depending on the similarity of "Javel" and "Jail", so I regard it as doubtful unless there is better direct evidence. One of the earliest references to Javel Group is in the late 14th century accounts for the re-furbishment and extension of the Castle at Newcastle, where it is said that timber for the purpose was bought from John Woodseller and landed at "Gaolegrip" in the Close and carted from there to the Castle. That is mentioned on page 119 of R J Charlton's "Newcastle Town", published in 1885, of which I have the 1978 reprint by Frank Graham. On page 274 it says "The origin of its strange name has been much debated; but it will be remembered that when the gaol of the castle was built, the timber used in its erection was landed at the "Gaole Grippe", most undoubtedly this place. Groope or Grype, says Brand (an earlier historian of Newcastle - GN), means a ditch, and javell is a corruption of gaol. In a view of Newcastle from the south, given in Brand's "History", we see trees growing close to the Javel Group, but now its appearance is far from sylvan." In his next paragraph, Charlton says "A liittle further east from here stood the house of the Earls of Northumberland. It was 'Bounded on the east by Bower Chare, betwixt Tyne Bridge and Javil Groupe' ". I don't know whether that helps or whether it merely adds to the confusion, but there it is anyway! Geoff Nicholson