> I was fascinated with the discussion about St James Hall, especially > John's mention of the wrestling. > My Grandmother's side of the family had an all-in wrestler who reputedly > fought at St James Hall (information from my dad who can vaguely remember > him). >He was known as Tom Finney to the family but I think that this is > going to be his stage name. The only record I can find of a marriage > between his wife (Lilian >Sheppard) and someone is a Robert W Johnston in > Castle Ward in 1930 which would be about right as Lilian (one of my > Grandmother's cousins) was born in >1908 in Tynemouth district. Whilst I cannot recall Tom Finney wrestling, I remember many of the early post-war wrestlers. Stan Powton (The Unknown), Dirty Jackie Swan, Willy Fleck, were three local lads (Heaton), Flecky married my cousin Vi. Stan Powton had the wet fish-shop on Chillingham Rd., Jack Pye, Chick Knight, The Golden Ace, Bert Asseratti, The Black Mask, Les Kellet, are just a few of the names I recall seeing. http://www.wrestlingheritage.co.uk/1946.htm I also knew quite a number of the pre. and post-war boxers who appeared at "The Hall", many of whom used the "Queens" watering-hole in Wilfred St. Byker, managed by Jackie "Boy" Page. Regular customers included, Jim Falcus, Dusty Noble, Geordie (Puncher) Willis, cousin of Benny Sharkey, Albert "Tug" Fawcett, and many more. My Aunt Violet gave evidence in the murder trial at Durham Assizes, having discovered the remains of the murder victim at "The Hall" in 1957 where she was head cleaner. The case was reported in the Evening Chronicle. To the best of my knowledge, all persons mentioned are now deceased. Aalthibest Reuben

In a message dated 06/01/2010 16:00:37 GMT Standard Time, 2zpool@charter.net writes: Who and what are you looking for and what year span? Bothal with Hebburn is one of the LDS names similar to Durhamshire and Earsdon by North Shields >From the IGI I have the births of the following Thubrons (or variants) Thomas 1775, Dorothy and Isabel 1777, Elizabeth 1778, Isabel 1780. All are listed as Bothal with Hebburn. I was looking to validate these entries from the BTs, which have Hebburn but not Bothal. Adrian

Who and what are you looking for and what year span? Bothal with Hebburn is one of the LDS names similar to Durhamshire and Earsdon by North Shields Janis

What I would like to know is why 'Hudspeth' Joshua Fothergill had married Margaret Mills 11.5.1802 St Johns, Newcastle. Persusal of baptism records of Elizabeth's siblings gives the information that Joshua was a 'shipwright' and that the father of Margaret Mills was James Mills a 'glassmaker' or 'bottle maker' of Heworth. The first born child was George Hudspeth Fothergill born 05.03.1803 bapt 08.05.1803 at Heworth Bishops Transcripts (pg 205 of Jarrow) has the father as Josiah Fothergill of Bill Quay a 'shipwright', native of All Saints, bhw Margaret Mills of this chapelry. I do not know why 'Hudspeth' was used as a middle name For a number of reasons I think that the correct name is Joseph IGI 'suggests' that Margaret Mills was born about 1784 but this cannot be substantiated. The only marriage I can find in Heworth of a James Mills is to Ann Davison 2.12.1770 but this cannot be confirmed as the relevant marriage and I cannot find any 'other' children of this marriage who would be Margaret Mills' siblings. I would like to throw this open to members who may also have 'Hudspeth' connections. The use of 'Hudspeth' as a middle name does not seem relevant to the Fothergill line so presumably must be relevant to the Mills line (?). Many thanks Mike Fairless

I'm a bit baffled by these two places. I have IGI entries for "Bothal with Hebburn" in the period 1776-1780 that don't appear in the Bishop's Transcripts for Hebburn. According to GENUKI there are two parishes - Bothal, and Hebburn, which is next door, with no mention of "Bothal with Hebburn". Am I right in assuming that the "Bothal with Hebburn" registers are actually from Bothal, which is unfortunately not in the Familysearch BTs? Adrian

I do believe Phil Ritson has found it for us. Thank you so much for your help. Regards Sue ----- Original Message ----- From: <Dixymick@aol.com> To: <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [NMB] Wilson & Bowshill > Sue, > > To avoid duplication, please say where you have already searched for > their marriage. and in which eras ! > > For example which Methodist, Presbyterian, etc church records, say in > Newcastle have you already searched ? > > Michael > Newcastle > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.125/2600 - Release Date: 01/04/10 19:35:00

Geoff I wonder if by any chance you have any knowledge of this chapel. Mygt. gt.grandparents William Armstrong and Ann Wilson married there in 1847 - sadly Ann died a few months later leaving a young baby. On National Archives there are several documents relating to this chapel. One in 1846 mentions a William Armstrong,pitman of Wagehead (which I believe is in West Charlton) I have not been able to find anything on my William Armstrong - the marriage certificate just says full age and address Birtley,father Robert ( both miners)and a witnessThomas Armstrong. I have searched censuses without success. My thoughts are that if he was active in the Presbyterian church it may narrow down the number of Armstrongs! The Wilsons were C of E. Any thoughts on this would be welcome Brenda

Hi Folks: New Year being the time for reflection, I've been pondering a mystery which has intrigued me for over 60 years. It concerns an old church and burial ground near the North Tyne town of Bellingham, north of Hexham, and two unusual graves in close proximity. I have racked my brains to try and recall the name of the church, without success, and am hoping some local might be able to identify the place, or someone with knowledge of local burials or history might put some flesh on the bones. >From memory, the old stone church stood alone a few metres back from a sealed road, and there were gravestones alongside a rough pathway leading to the main doors of the building. At the time I made my youthful visit, the place appeared completely abandoned. The door was wide open, wind-blown leaves covered the floor, dead flowers filled several vases and thick dust was everywhere. Hymm books still lay open on the seats of pews. On my way back to the road after a quick inspection, I came across two headstones on what seemed to be well maintained little graves. The first claimed to be the burial place of a person, a female I believe, who had died at some fantastic age. The second stated that this was the last resting place of a man who was a pirate. I can't remember what age was stated on the supposed female grave, but I do know it seemed impossibly old to me, and that maybe an error of some kind had been made. The male grave I found credible (just), but how and why had a pirate come to be buried near Bellingham, miles from the sea? Or was he some other kind of pirate, of the freebooter, land-borne variety, by no means rare in that part of the world? I'd love to hear some theories which might help solve the mystery. Alan Fletcher Hill, Buried in Hamilton, NZ

Alan, I wonder if the church could be St. Aidan's at Thorneyburn. The description sounds like it to me. Mike Temple, Spain. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Hill" <alan.hill@clear.net.nz> To: <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 6:01 AM Subject: [NMB] Old Graves > Hi Folks: > > New Year being the time for reflection, I've been pondering > a mystery which has intrigued me for over 60 years. > > It concerns an old church and burial ground near the North > Tyne town of Bellingham, north of Hexham, and two unusual > graves in close proximity. > > I have racked my brains to try and recall the name of the > church, without success, and am hoping some local might be > able to identify the place, or someone with knowledge of > local burials or history might put some flesh on the bones. > >>From memory, the old stone church stood alone a few metres > back from a sealed road, and there were gravestones > alongside a rough pathway leading to the main doors of the > building. At the time I made my youthful visit, the place > appeared completely abandoned. > > The door was wide open, wind-blown leaves covered the floor, > dead flowers filled several vases and thick dust was > everywhere. Hymm books still lay open on the seats of pews. > > On my way back to the road after a quick inspection, I came > across two headstones on what seemed to be well maintained > little graves. The first claimed to be the burial place of a > person, a female I believe, who had died at some fantastic > age. The second stated that this was the last resting place > of a man who was a pirate. > > I can't remember what age was stated on the supposed female > grave, but I do know it seemed impossibly old to me, and > that maybe an error of some kind had been made. The male > grave I found credible (just), but how and why had a pirate > come to be buried near Bellingham, miles from the sea? Or > was he some other kind of pirate, of the freebooter, > land-borne variety, by no means rare in that part of the > world? > > I'd love to hear some theories which might help solve the > mystery. > > Alan Fletcher Hill, > Buried in Hamilton, NZ > > > > > > > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.125/2600 - Release Date: 01/04/10 19:35:00

Hello all, I was interested in the mention of Corsenside church which has many connections to my family - Armstrong, Dodds,Wilson. I visited there in the summer of 2008 and it was in very good repair. The pews were decorated at the ends with bunches of heather and there were flowers on the cills. (perhaps they still have weddings there) I was much impressed with it's location and upkeep. There are many headstones,still very visible, even though the churchyard is somewhat overgrown. Anyone with connections to this church should certainly put it on their list of ''to visit''!!! I think it quite the most perfect little church that I have visited. Brenda in Suffolk

Hi Folks, After many years of research on my husband family tree Rowley & Brand, I learnt that my very own great great grandfather also came from Newcastle Northumberland, a John Wilson br about 1836. In the 1861 & 1871 census he is living in Elswick with wife & family. 1881 & 1901 census he is in Kent & Greenwich. My problem is I can not find his marriage to a Helen or Ellen Bowshill. She is from Dalkeith Scotland, and my guess is she may have had a heavy accent. So her surname my have been misspelt. I have purchased two of her children's birth certificates Jessie & Peter. It looks very clear to be Bowshill, but I can not find her marriage any where. Would some kind soul, be able to suggest some thing? I have my fingers crossed. Regards Sue Rowley in Sydney Australia

In a message dated 05/01/2010 16:00:16 GMT Standard Time, jmtemple@telefonica.net writes: I wonder if the church could be St. Aidan's at Thorneyburn. Indeed, another possibility, as indeed is almost every church in the Bellingham district. I've just thought of another objection ot the "pirate" theory, at least at Thorneyburn. In 1818 the huge "great parish" of Simonburn was carved up and several new parishes formed out of it (Humshaugh, Wark, Thorneyburn, Greystead). As Greenwich (Naval) Hospital had a lot of interests in the district, mainly through their having received the Derwentwater estates, confiscated for Lord Derwentwater's Jacobitism in 1715, they were reserved for retired Royal Naval Chaplains, an arrangement which lasted for many years - I'm not sure whether it still does today. Such a person would be even more unlikely to tolerate a pirate in his churchyard than even the average clergyman! Geoff

Further to Geoff's reponse, there's a picture of Corsenside, St. Cuthbert, at http://www.genuki.bpears.org.uk/NBL/Corsenside/Corsenside.html. Does it look familiar, Alan? Vivienne Toronto, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <negenealogy@aol.com> To: <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 7:06 AM Subject: Re: [NMB] Old Graves > > In a message dated 05/01/2010 10:56:18 GMT Standard Time, > alan.hill@clear.net.nz writes: >

In a message dated 05/01/2010 10:56:18 GMT Standard Time, alan.hill@clear.net.nz writes: I'd love to hear some theories which might help solve the mystery. Theories, yes, but not definite solutions! My thoughts on reading your query were centred on the chuirch at Corsenside. I am not sure what you mean by a "sealed road", but that at Corsenside is approached off the A68, north of West Woodburn, by a gated farm track whiich may well have been unsurfaced in the not-too-distant past - I'm not even certain whether it is surfaced today. At the end of the track is (a) the church and (b) a small cottage. At least that is how I remember it on my only visit, in the 1970s when I went to record the pre-1851 MIs for the NDFHS, with Don Mason. The church was not disused, as I remember, but it was probably attached to some other parish or group of parishes, services being held there perhaps monthly, and so, although not locked, it was dark and dusty. As for your "pirate's grave", did the inscription actually say the occupant of the grave had been a pirate? Given that piracy was a criminal act, punishable by death, I doubt whether any clergyman would have allowed it, even in as remote a church as Corsenside. Many churchyards, however, do have what is shown to visitors as "a pirate's grave", usually because it includes a carving of a skull and crossed bones. However, that is only one of several symbols of death which were often put onto gravestones in order to get a message across, even to illiterate parishioners. As I say, don't take any of this as definitely saying "it was Corsenside", but do bear in mind that it might have been! Geoff Nicholson

Sue, To avoid duplication, please say where you have already searched for their marriage. and in which eras ! For example which Methodist, Presbyterian, etc church records, say in Newcastle have you already searched ? Michael Newcastle

Dear list members On google books I have been reading the A History of Northumberland, in three parts by John Hodgson, Clerk. Part II, Vol I Parochial History. On p75 there is a description (just extracts here...) In the manuscript survey of the 10th of Elizabeth, 1568, which is attributed to Lawson, then the queen's feodary in Northumberland, there is a curious enumeration of the possessions which the crown had at the that time in Redesdale, and also of the names of the other principal proprietors, and of their estates within in". It goes on to say that, in Redesdale, many men were 'seized' in certain lands. One of these was "Thomas Elsdon, certain lands in Whiskersheels, Elsden and Raylees". Does anyone know whether this means that Thomas Elsdon had a lease or ownership of these lands from the queen or the queen's representative? And Newcastle Indictments relating to Morpeth Deanery. p76 in 1628, there were 28 indictments at the assizes at Newcastle . 24 for felony, out of which . 4 were out of Redesdale, viz.:George Coxon, Gerard Coxon, Michael Elsdon, not found guilty and John Reed. p77 Northumberland 1628 Michael Elsden of the Mote commit from the last sessions without either bail or malpraise, being taken upon a capias awarded from the last sessions upon an indictment for felony, vix. For stealing of cattle. Archaeologia Aeliana, vol 1, p150, 161. Does anyone know whether both of these reference are likely to mean that Michael Elsdon was indicted at the Newcastle Assizes in 1628 and aquitted with no bail? Thanks Judith Australia

Hi Sue, Getting into the realm of spelling variations can open up a whole can of worms so I'm not sure how much help this will be but here goes, there is a Helen Baswell 6 Mo. in the 1841 census for Scotland , Daughter of Alexander and Helen registered in Midlothian, she also occurs again in the 1851 Scotland Census this time with the surname Boswell ,she appears to be the correct age and area for your Helen/Ellen Bowshill .I could not however find a Wilson and Baswell or Bowshill or Boswell marriage , the IGI however does show a marriage between John Wilson and Hellen Bourhill ,11 Feb 1859 in Edinburgh Parish , Edinburgh , Midlothian (Batch #M116851 Source Call # 6035516) . These references may or may not be relevent but reseaching in the brides parish would probably be the best place to start. Good Hunting in 2010 All the best Phil Ritson > Hi Folks, After many years of research on my husband family tree Rowley & > Brand, I learnt that my very own great great grandfather also came from > Newcastle Northumberland, a John Wilson br about 1836. In the 1861 & 1871 > census he is living in Elswick with wife & family. 1881 & 1901 census he > is in Kent & Greenwich. My problem is I can not find his marriage to a > Helen or Ellen Bowshill. She is from Dalkeith Scotland, and my guess is > she may have had a heavy accent. So her surname my have been misspelt. I > have purchased two of her children's birth certificates Jessie & Peter. > It looks very clear to be Bowshill, but I can not find her marriage any > where. Would some kind soul, be able to suggest some thing? > > I have my fingers crossed. > > Regards Sue Rowley in Sydney Australia > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Geoff How interesting! However, my Tulips are so far much humbler, being coal miners. Martha Tulip, daughter of John (a coal miner) married my ggg uncle George Monkester (his preferred spelling according to the marriage certificate - and I think much the nicest, I imagine it most approximates the NE pronunciation), this was 1862 in Shotton (she was born 1841 in Wingate). John Tulip had married Martha Christie in Gateshead in 1827, and was born in Throckley 1805, to I think William Tulip and Margaret Bowes (married 1802 Newburn). I will have to do a bit of work to understand how the "Friend" gets involved, but it is probably much as you imagine - a kind of status symbol !? Regards Christel --- On Sun, 3/1/10, NEGenealogy@aol.com <NEGenealogy@aol.com> wrote: > From: NEGenealogy@aol.com <NEGenealogy@aol.com> > Subject: Re: [NMB] Friend Tulip + William Tulip > To: northumbria@rootsweb.com > Date: Sunday, 3 January, 2010, 15:33 > > In a message dated 03/01/2010 12:34:01 GMT Standard > Time,  > christelhelen@yahoo.co.uk > writes: > > I also  am trying to trace the baptism of William > Tulip, he married in 1802 > to  Margaret Bowes (at Newburn) > > I believe that William and Friend are  brothers (one > of William's grandsons > is called John  Friend) > > > > > First, the Tulip family were Northumbrian  landowners > in the St John Lee > district.  In "Hutton's Wall" an account of a  > walk along Hadrian's Wall > undertaken by an elderly gentleman from Birmingham  > c1800 (and published c1970 by > Frank Graham), he tells of meeting > workmen   busy demolishing part of the > Wall somewhere near the top of > Brunton   Bank.  He remonstrated with > them but > they said they were acting on orders  from "Mr > Tulip".  Hutton sent a > message to Tulip via the workmen, telling  him what > damage he was doing to a > great ancient monument.  It may have had  a > little effect, as there is a piece > of the Wall surviving just where Hutton  said his > meeting took place! > >     However, those Tulips may not be yours as it > was  not an unusual > surname in that part opf Northumberland.  That of > "Friend"  is much rarer, and in > this context I am reminded of the Bennett family of  > Swalwell in Whickham > parish.  A Richard Bennett (1727-1779) married a  > Theodosia Friend > (1731-1807).  Her first name implies that her > father  worked for Crowley's Iron Works, > which was dominant in Swalwell, Winlaton and  Winlaton > Mill, and which for > many years was controlled by a Mrs Theodosia  Crowley, > apparently quite a > forceful woman, as many or the workers began to call  > their daughters Theodosia > during her "reign".  One son of Richard and  > Theodosia was Thomas Friend > Bennett (1769-1842) who became Agent for  > Crowleys.  Perhaps the Tulips had > the same reason for drawing  attention to their Friend > relatives as had the > Bennetts! > >                 >                 >                 > Geoff  Nicholson > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 04/01/2010 09:20:40 GMT Standard Time, pnjmillington@bigpond.com writes: in Redesdale, many men were 'seized' in certain lands. One of these was "Thomas Elsdon, certain lands in Whiskersheels, Elsden and Raylees". Does anyone know whether this means that Thomas Elsdon had a lease or ownership of these lands from the queen or the queen's representative? To be seized of lands means that one was the owner. Redesdale was occupied by many small yeoman-type land owners, rather than by a few major ones like the rest of Northumberland. This seems to have come down partly for historical purposes connected with its status as a mediaeval Liberty (of the King of Scotland, no less!) and partly through a continuation of the old Celtic system opf land inheritance. If Thomas Elsdon was not a Freeholder, then his lease would have been from the owner of the Liberty, ie possibly the Queen but possibly her representative who, for some time, was the Earl of Carlisle, family name Howard, as explained in Hodgson's History. And Newcastle Indictments relating to Morpeth Deanery. p76 in 1628, there were 28 indictments at the assizes at Newcastle . 24 for felony, out of which . 4 were out of Redesdale, viz.:George Coxon, Gerard Coxon, Michael Elsdon, not found guilty and John Reed. p77 Northumberland 1628 Michael Elsden of the Mote commit from the last sessions without either bail or malpraise, being taken upon a capias awarded from the last sessions upon an indictment for felony, vix. For stealing of cattle. Archaeologia Aeliana, vol 1, p150, 161. Does anyone know whether both of these reference are likely to mean that Michael Elsdon was indicted at the Newcastle Assizes in 1628 and aquitted with no bail? I interpret this as meaning that at the previous sessions a warrant was issued for his arrest for cattle stealing, that he was then arrested, and refused bail, and that when his case came up he was found not guilty. If so, he was lucky, as he could have been hanged for the offence. Even if the Law did not impose the death penalty, his victims might have done so "unofficially". The period you mention was only one generation after the end of the Reiving period - usually taken to last until the Union of the Crowns in 1603, and Redesdale would still be a fairly lawless place, where rough justice was the main form of justice. Note that the Assizes for Northumberland were held in Newcastle, even though Newcastle was a county in its own right and separate from the county of Northumberland. That was because the precincts of the former Royal Castle remained as part of Northumberland and it was there, in the Moot Hall, that Northumberland cases were tried. The Castle precincts only linked up with Newcastle again in 1974 when Tyne and Wear was formed, and they still include the (much later than 1628) Moot Hall which is still officially a court-room, although rarely used for that purpose these days. Geoff Nicholson

Hello Christel, I too have an interst in the surname Tulip. I looked on the Family search ''pilot search'' for Friend and his baptism at Ovingham 14/4/1782(page 78) gives parents as Samuel and Alice of Fowler's Moor. The writing is quite hard to read so perhaps you would like to check it!! My interest is Christian Tulip who married Thomas Wilson at Birtley 27/2/1796.Christian was the daughter of William and was baptised at Bellingham 1775. This is as far as I have managed to get with these Tulips.Christian was my4xgt.grandmother. Regards Brenda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christel Muncaster" <christelhelen@yahoo.co.uk> To: "northumbria mailing group" <northumbria@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2010 12:14 PM Subject: [NMB] Friend Tulip > Hello > > I am trying to find baptism details/parents of Friend Tulip who married at > Ponteland in 1806 to Elizabeth Robson. No luck on IGI or freereg. > > Many thanks > > Christel > > > > > > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORTHUMBRIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >