Hello Listers There may be some circumstances where Certificates of Death were issued even though there is no body found. My husband's ancestor Ralph Forster was a Master Mariner acting as Mate on the maiden voyage of the Stamfordham a Steamer built on the Tyne. The ship, among many, was lost of the coast of America in a huge storm. No bodies were recovered but we found a Death Registration in the Deaths at Sea Registers and have a certificate. Jill in Sydney >> >>>Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the >>>GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the >>>catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your >>>man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way >>>from the GRO at their site.

Thanks for that Jenny Its a subject that interests me and raises its head every now and then But just when I think I have it taped something else pops up All the Acts I have read speak of deaths at sea, not where a person goes overboard or is otherwise lost Other references to deaths in absentia speak specifically that if there was no body recovered there would not be a death certificate which is what my ex registrar contact states as does the GRO themselves as I asked them some time ago I suspect its a matter of terminology I will check some more and see if I can resolve the issue Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 22:00, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > HI Nivard > > The death certificate that I have for my Gt. Grandfather John smith is > headed with these words. > > "Certified Copy of an entry in the Marine Register" > "Pursuant to the provisions of the Merchant shipping Act, 1894-1970 and the > Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953." > ""Return of Deaths at Sea reported to the Registrar General of Shipping and > Seamen under the provision of "Merchant Shipping Act, 1894" and 1970 During > the month of November 1882""

HI Nivard The death certificate that I have for my Gt. Grandfather John smith is headed with these words. "Certified Copy of an entry in the Marine Register" "Pursuant to the provisions of the Merchant shipping Act, 1894-1970 and the Births and Deaths Registration Act 1953." ""Return of Deaths at Sea reported to the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen under the provision of "Merchant Shipping Act, 1894" and 1970 During the month of November 1882"" Then there are columns giving the details of the death at sea these are headed :- Name of ship, her official number, date of death, place of death, (which in my case is blank), name and surname of deceased, Sex, Age, Rank Profession or occupation, Nationality, Last Place of abode, Cause of death, Passenger or member of crew. "Certified to be a true copy of an entry in the marine Register of Deaths. Given at the General Register Office, under the seal of the said Office, this ----" (the date the copy was made for me by the GRO in 2002) So the certificate is rather different from the usual death certificate of people who die on dry land. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<But is it the same form as a normal death certificate? Or is it a certificate of death Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK)>>

HI Nivard. As far as I know my Gt. Grandfather's body was not recovered. The ship had run into a Cyclone 3 days after leaving New Orleans. My gt. grandfather was lost, apparently, on the 9th Oct 1882, as per the death certificate copy that I have for him. The ship arrived at Queenstown Ireland, not a scheduled stop as far as I know, apparently she had lost 2 of her boats, presumably life boats, and was short of coal. Shortness of coal fits with her having been through a heavy storm and having to sail full steam ahead through the storm, she would use her coal up more quickly. The day after she arrived in Ireland she sailed on to Antwerp Belgium, her scheduled destination, where she left her load of Grain on 1st November. She then sailed home to Hartlepool arriving there on 2nd. of November. That is where the death was registered by the master Mr Darnell. The ship having lost 2 of her boats I have always wondered whether more men were also lost at the same time, maybe some went to in the life boats to try and rescue him. My Gt. Grandfather, a master mariner, was sailing as Mate on that voyage, though he had mastered the same ship in earlier voyages that same year. I think that deaths at sea are recorded, even when the body is not recovered, so long as there were witnesses to testify to the event of the loss. Otherwise how come I have the death certificate which says drowned as the cause of death? I have never found a burial for him in the burial indexes for Hartlepool. His wife and some of their children were buried in the old cemetery on the headland there after services at St. Hilda's church, the church the family had always used. But the list of Smith burials that I have from the St. Hilda's PRs do not show such a John Smith around the end of 1882. I wish I could find a burial for him but I never have. I think he was just lost at sea, even though some attempt at rescue had maybe taken place causing the loss of the 2 boats and perhaps other men also drowned in that attempt. The newspaper reports of the incident just say that he was washed overboard during a heavy storm, nothing about his body being successfully recovered. Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<In the case you cite in 1882 was there a body recovered I ask as I am reliably informed by an ex registrar that if there was no body there would be no death registration or certificate, not a normal anyway, there may be a court document stating presumed death or as a result of an inquest but even then there is no death certificate as such>>

Sorry I meant to type find my past no FreeBMD. Look under the usual BMDs tab on the siteand go from there. I am so sorry for the confusion Regards Jenny DeAngelis <<Hi Jenny How do you find the Deaths at Sea on FreeBMD? I've looked all over their site but not found them. Gen in NBL England>> > Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in > the > GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst > the > catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find > your > man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way > from the GRO at their site.

Hi Jill But is it the same form as a normal death certificate? Or is it a certificate of death Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 20:39, Jill Forster wrote: > Hello Listers > > There may be some circumstances where Certificates of Death were > issued even though > there is no body found. My husband's ancestor Ralph Forster was a > Master Mariner > acting as Mate on the maiden voyage of the Stamfordham a Steamer > built on the Tyne. > The ship, among many, was lost of the coast of America in a huge > storm. No bodies > were recovered but we found a Death Registration in the Deaths at Sea > Registers and > have a certificate. > > Jill in Sydney >

Hi Patrick As you may see from my previous post, I misread the post as referring to findmypast whereas they were asking about freebmd But see my reply for another avenue to try Ancestry do not have the overseas indexes, findmypast do Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 19:08, Patrick Williams wrote: > > Hi Nivard > > You say - On the UK site - is this Ancestry you refer to? And then the > following instructions > > Under Search Records, Select Births, Marriage, Death & Parish Records > > Then select Deaths 1796 - 2006 > > Under Region you will find At Sea > > Regards > > Patrick Williams

Hi Meg I do apologise I misread the post as asking where to find the deaths at sea on findmypast, hence my reply as you surmised Thats what happens when you try and do to many things at the same time :-( Freebmd does *not* cover any of what is known as the overseas indexes which cover Births, Marriages and Deaths at sea and regimental events plus consular and other indexes However it may be of interest to you to know that many of the overseas indexes can be browsed for free on http://www.familyrelatives.com/ Although a pay site they do have some of the overseas indexes to browse for free (you need to register but not give CC details etc) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 18:40, Meg and Mike Hartford wrote: > Nivard, > > I too have tried to find these records on FreeBMD and failed miserably. The records on the site seem to cover civil registrations, not back to 1796. I have the feeling that you might be referring to a different site. Is it Find My Past? > > Meg

Hi Nivard You say - On the UK site - is this Ancestry you refer to? And then the following instructions Under Search Records, Select Births, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Then select Deaths 1796 - 2006 Under Region you will find At Sea Regards Patrick Williams

Nivard, I too have tried to find these records on FreeBMD and failed miserably. The records on the site seem to cover civil registrations, not back to 1796. I have the feeling that you might be referring to a different site. Is it Find My Past? Meg Sent from my iPad On 13 Mar 2013, at 16:59, Nivard Ovington <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Gen > > On the UK site > > Under Search Records, Select Births, Marriage, Death & Parish Records > > Then select Deaths 1796 - 2006 > > Under Region you will find At Sea > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 13/03/2013 16:50, gen listlass wrote: >> Hi Jenny >> How do you find the Deaths at Sea on FreeBMD? I've looked all over their site but not found them. >> Gen in NBL England >> >> >>> Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the >>> GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the >>> catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your >>> man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way >>> from the GRO at their site. > .. > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello I have just joined this “list” so I had better explain my genealogical interests. My name is Alan Penn whilst I live in Hertfordshire, England my roots are in Sunderland where most of my Ancestors were either born, moved to, or worked. Both of my parents were born and bred in Sunderland. Other key members of my ancestors have been born or brought up in the Newcastle area one of which was a James Scott Carney born in about 1885 in the Newcastle area I believe. My direct line of Ancestors include Penn’s of course and Viney’s on my Fathers side with Knight’s and Whites on my mothers side. I am interested in learning more about them including the work/trades they followed and their descendents. Also the Powey’s from my mothers side connected closely with the White’s. The Powey’s played a big part in the family particularly as far as my mother was concerned. The Powley family I refer to are the family known mainly for R. Powley and Sons the Sparkling Drinks (plus other related elements such as bottle washing, sterilising etc.) company. Robert Powley born on 25 Sep 1842 in Little Strickland, Morland, Westmoreland. Lancashire. He was (I believe) the founder member. I would say this company was started sometime between 1881 and 1891. The White family is another area that I would very much like to know more about. My Grandmother plus Great Uncle’s and Great Aunts including Mary (Polly) Hannah White who married Wilfred Powley are the main connection from my point of view of the White/Powley families. Apart from these I am sure there are more families connected with the above that would be of great interest to me and would be grateful to anyone who could fill in some of the gaps re the data I currently have. Of course if I can give any information or help to anyone else likewise interested I would be please to be able do so where I can. Thank you for affording me the time to read this. Alan.

From: Nivard Ovington - Subject: Re: [NMB] Lost at sea 1896-1901 >In the case of John LAKE even though there is evidence he was drowned in >1899 there is no death registered in that year for a John LAKE death >at sea (or anywhere else for that matter) which is as I would expect. Thank you to everyone for all the information, very helpful. >heaven knows where a body a mile of Northshields would be taken by the tide! apparently, according to local lifeboat personnel, they go northwards. It can take some time, but remains have been found as far as Shetland. "the lifeboatmen don't talk about it much" said John Lake's gt-grandson of his friends who are in the lifeboats - in a tone of voice which implied its not a pleasant job, finding and retrieving such. JUlia

Hi Gen On the UK site Under Search Records, Select Births, Marriage, Death & Parish Records Then select Deaths 1796 - 2006 Under Region you will find At Sea Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 16:50, gen listlass wrote: > Hi Jenny > How do you find the Deaths at Sea on FreeBMD? I've looked all over their site but not found them. > Gen in NBL England > > >> Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the >> GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the >> catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your >> man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way >> from the GRO at their site.

Hi Jenny How do you find the Deaths at Sea on FreeBMD? I've looked all over their site but not found them. Gen in NBL England > Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the > GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the > catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your > man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way > from the GRO at their site.

Absolutely David But clearly there would be no death registration for the John LAKE if it was an unidentified body Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 14:52, David Scott wrote: > I suppose the other option is that the body was certified as > "Unknown". There were 632 registered deaths At Sea as that in 1899. > Presumably, there was no identification, or the body was so badly > disfigured as to be unrecognisable. And heaven knows where a body a > mile of Northshields would be taken by the tide! > > David Scott. >

I suppose the other option is that the body was certified as "Unknown". There were 632 registered deaths At Sea as that in 1899. Presumably, there was no identification, or the body was so badly disfigured as to be unrecognisable. And heaven knows where a body a mile of Northshields would be taken by the tide! David Scott. -----Original Message----- From: Nivard Ovington - Email Address: [email protected] Sent On: 13/03/2013 14:06 Sent To: [email protected] - Email Address: [email protected] Subject: Re: [NMB] Lost at sea 1896-1901 Hi Jenny In the case you cite in 1882 was there a body recovered I ask as I am reliably informed by an ex registrar that if there was no body there would be no death registration or certificate, not a normal anyway, there may be a court document stating presumed death or as a result of an inquest but even then there is no death certificate as such In the case of John LAKE even though there is evidence he was drowned in 1899 there is no death registered in that year for a John LAKE death at sea (or anywhere else for that matter) which is as I would expect Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 11:21, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > > HI Julia, > > Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the > GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the > catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your > man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way > from the GRO at their site. > > A death at sea could only be registered provided that there was someone from > the ship who surivived to register the death once the ship reached dry land. > Such BMDs overseas were supposed to be registered with either the Registrar > of shipping or the British Consul at the first port of call that the vessel > called at after the event, where such a registrar or consul was available. > Otherwise the event had to be registered with the Registrar of shipping once > the vessel arrived back in the UK. In the case of a ship being lost with > all hands then there would be no survivors to register the deaths so no > record would be found in the Indexes. > > I see that Nivard has found the newspaper report for you. From that > newspaper report you have the date on which John Lake was lost and that the > other man was rescued, that man, or perhaps someone else in his name, > should have registered the death of John Lake so look on the above website > under the appropriate link and Overseas BMDs for the death. > > My Gt. Grandfather was lost at sea in 1882 3 days after his ship left New > Orleans USA, his death was registered by the master of the vessel back in > Hartlepool once the ship got back from that voyage, I got that death > certificate by searching on the above overseas death index. So you should > find John Lake's death certificate in this way. > > Good luck > Jenny DeAngelis .. Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1430 / Virus Database: 2641/5668 - Release Date: 03/12/13

Hi Jenny In the case you cite in 1882 was there a body recovered I ask as I am reliably informed by an ex registrar that if there was no body there would be no death registration or certificate, not a normal anyway, there may be a court document stating presumed death or as a result of an inquest but even then there is no death certificate as such In the case of John LAKE even though there is evidence he was drowned in 1899 there is no death registered in that year for a John LAKE death at sea (or anywhere else for that matter) which is as I would expect Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 13/03/2013 11:21, Jenny De Angelis wrote: > > HI Julia, > > Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the > GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the > catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your > man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way > from the GRO at their site. > > A death at sea could only be registered provided that there was someone from > the ship who surivived to register the death once the ship reached dry land. > Such BMDs overseas were supposed to be registered with either the Registrar > of shipping or the British Consul at the first port of call that the vessel > called at after the event, where such a registrar or consul was available. > Otherwise the event had to be registered with the Registrar of shipping once > the vessel arrived back in the UK. In the case of a ship being lost with > all hands then there would be no survivors to register the deaths so no > record would be found in the Indexes. > > I see that Nivard has found the newspaper report for you. From that > newspaper report you have the date on which John Lake was lost and that the > other man was rescued, that man, or perhaps someone else in his name, > should have registered the death of John Lake so look on the above website > under the appropriate link and Overseas BMDs for the death. > > My Gt. Grandfather was lost at sea in 1882 3 days after his ship left New > Orleans USA, his death was registered by the master of the vessel back in > Hartlepool once the ship got back from that voyage, I got that death > certificate by searching on the above overseas death index. So you should > find John Lake's death certificate in this way. > > Good luck > Jenny DeAngelis

HI Julia, Deaths at sea are not recorded in the normal GRO index of deaths but in the GRO index of overseas BMD. This index is on the FreeBMD site in amongst the catergories listed there you will find BMDs at Sea listed. If you find your man in that index you can order a copy of the certificate in the usual way from the GRO at their site. A death at sea could only be registered provided that there was someone from the ship who surivived to register the death once the ship reached dry land. Such BMDs overseas were supposed to be registered with either the Registrar of shipping or the British Consul at the first port of call that the vessel called at after the event, where such a registrar or consul was available. Otherwise the event had to be registered with the Registrar of shipping once the vessel arrived back in the UK. In the case of a ship being lost with all hands then there would be no survivors to register the deaths so no record would be found in the Indexes. I see that Nivard has found the newspaper report for you. From that newspaper report you have the date on which John Lake was lost and that the other man was rescued, that man, or perhaps someone else in his name, should have registered the death of John Lake so look on the above website under the appropriate link and Overseas BMDs for the death. My Gt. Grandfather was lost at sea in 1882 3 days after his ship left New Orleans USA, his death was registered by the master of the vessel back in Hartlepool once the ship got back from that voyage, I got that death certificate by searching on the above overseas death index. So you should find John Lake's death certificate in this way. Good luck Jenny DeAngelis <<One of my husband's gt-grandfathers, John LAKE appears on the 1891 census in North Shields as a fisherman That he was a fisherman accords with family history stories, which go on to say he was lost at sea.>>

Thanks very much to Sue, David and Nivard for the details of "my" John LAKE. It seems that on this occasion family stories were more or less accurate. The survivor "A REED" was probably Anthony REED, who was living in Bell St in 1901, and working in the harbour on trawler-related jobs. (in case anyone wants to claim him!) Onwards! (or should I say - backwards) Julia Say

Having had another look this morning, I think I must have been asleep yesterday, because I find that Sedgefield had ORD(E) baptisms aplenty in the 1600's - just not an Ann. There were also some HOURD earlier, so I am sure that Pat and Heather were on the right track, thank you. Adrian On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 9:36 AM, Pat Pierpoint <[email protected]> wrote: > Your are so right, Heather. A child in my JOHNSON family appears in the > Bellingham baptism register as Alexander CORK Johnson instead of Alexander > KIRK Johnson for the same reason! > > Cheers > Pat >> Hi Adrian >> With a Geordie accent HIRD and HURD could be pronounced HORD >> >> Heather