"Mildred Robson" <[email protected]> wrote: >'Bevan Boys' who worked in the mines, were men judged unfit for active >service in the armed forces but men were also drafted to work in >shipyards and were billeted on local people. That is not correct. Bevin Boys were fully-fit conscripts who were picked at random to serve in the mines. Each week Bevin's secretary picked a digit from 0-9, and everybody eligible for call-up that week, plus that week's volunteers, whose National Registration Number ended in that digit was assigned to the coal mining industry instead of the armed forces. They were not given any choice and no excuse was accepted. Bevin Boys worked only in coal mines, not in shipyards. Brian -- Brian Pears (Joint List Admin - NORTHUMBRIA Mailing List)

Wasn't it one conscript in each batch of ten was diverted to the mines? Ruth > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nivard Ovington > Sent: 30 April 2013 19:35 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [NMB] Reserved occupation in WW11 > > > Hi Mildred > > I don't think thats right on the Bevan boys > > It is my understanding that they were chosen by ballot from > conscripts and volunteers and were in most respects the same > as the recruits to the other services > > Wikipedia seems to bear that out > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevin_Boys> > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > >

Hi Mildred I don't think thats right on the Bevan boys It is my understanding that they were chosen by ballot from conscripts and volunteers and were in most respects the same as the recruits to the other services Wikipedia seems to bear that out <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevin_Boys> Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) 'Bevan Boys' who worked in the mines, > were men judged unfit for active service in the armed forces but men > were also drafted to work in shipyards and were billeted on local > people. We had three men billeted on us in 1940, one from Yorkshire, > one from Durham and one from London. A tight fit in a 1930's > semi-detached, two bedroomed house which already had my > parents,myself and a baby. Mildred Robson .

My father John E. T. Heslop worked at Hawthorne Leslie shipyard and during the duration of the Second World War told me he was in a 'reserved occupation'and worked two extra half- shifts and one night shift on top of his normal hours each week; in addition he was an air raid warden and when the siren sounded he would put on his tin hat and go out to patrol the area. R and W Hawthorn Leslie Shipyard at Hebburn on Tyne built ten Destroyers for the Admiralty between 1929 and 1938. The last one was H.M.S. Kelly. This ship earned much respect for the yard under the command of Lord Louis Mountbatten, (uncle of Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, the Queen's husband) when she survived a serious torpedoing off the Norwegian coast and arrived back at the yard for repairs, almost awash and with many of her crew dead and still below decks. Dad said that large bonuses were offered to men who would go down into the bowels of the ship after she had been pumped out and bring out the bodies. Dive-bombers during the German invasion of Greece and Crete later sank her. A film called "In Which We Serve", starring Noel Coward was made about this ship and the opening scenes of workmen riveting ships plates to-gether was shot in the Hebburn Yard, using the workmen who had built her. 'Bevan Boys' who worked in the mines, were men judged unfit for active service in the armed forces but men were also drafted to work in shipyards and were billeted on local people. We had three men billeted on us in 1940, one from Yorkshire, one from Durham and one from London. A tight fit in a 1930's semi-detached, two bedroomed house which already had my parents,myself and a baby. Mildred Robson

Hi again Conscription continued until the middle of 1919 Married men were initially exempt but that was changed in June 1916 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 30/04/2013 15:44, Charles Atkinson wrote: > Hello Listers > > I wish to thank everyone who responded to my question about conscription > in WW1. > > The responses provided interesting food for thought and now I think it > possible that Thomas NEIL might have slipped under the conscription radar > if he arrived on Tyneside from Ireland in early 1918, did not declare > himself for service and married shortly afterwards in June 1918. This > scenario would certainly account for the absence of records in England & > Wales before the marriage certificate. I noted that one of the conscription > exemptions was for married men. > > Did conscription endure until the signing of the armistice on 11 November > 1918 or a later date? > > Regards > > Charles Atkinson, Niagara Falls, Canada.

In my tree I have a Northern Irishman who worked in one of the Liverpool shipyards during WW 2 I believe it was a protected employment, or whatever the correct term is Certainly he was of an age and standard of fitness to be liable to conscription otherwise > Charles > > I would be very surprised if shipyard workers of any type were > conscripted - building and repairing warships was vital to the > war effort. > > Brian > -- > Brian Pears (Joint List Admin - NORTHUMBRIA Mailing List) > ..

As stated by John Gallon, Irish birth was no exemption to conscription. I have been told this was the reason my great-aunt's husband returned to to Co.Mayo from living in Hebburn, expressly to avoid it and taking his new bride with him. Maureen Davison Dear Maureen, Being born in Ireland was not an exemption if you then moved to the UK. If you stayed in Ireland then you could not be conscripted. Over 200,000 Irishmen fought in WW1 and sadly 30,000 were killed. John Walker, Newcastle upon Tyne [email protected] http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~littleblobby/ http://www.freewebs.com/littleblobby/

As stated by John Gallon, Irish birth was no exemption to conscription. I have been told this was the reason my great-aunt's husband returned to to Co.Mayo from living in Hebburn, expressly to avoid it and taking his new bride with him. Maureen Davison On 30 April 2013 09:56, John Gallon <[email protected]> wrote: > > Charles Atkinson <[email protected]> wrote: > >>Were there any restrictions in conscripting Irsh nationals, even > >>though at that time Ireland was part of Great Britain, that would > >>allow Thomas to avoid conscription? Or were shipyard workers, even > >>labourers, in an exempted occupation? Charles > > Dear Charles, > > Being born in in Ireland was not an exemption to conscription, as Ireland > was part of Great Britain at that time. Being a Labourer in the Shipyards > was not an exemption as over 30,000 Durham miners enlisted. > > See the Military Service Act 1916 http://www.1914-1918.net/msa1916.html > > Your relative might of been exempted on Health Grounds. I know of a man > who > was a labourer and was exempt, as he could not straighten one of his arms, > because of scar tissue from a scalding as a child. > > John > Walker, Newcastle upon Tyne > [email protected] > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~littleblobby/ > http://www.freewebs.com/littleblobby/ > > .. > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Listers I wish to thank everyone who responded to my question about conscription in WW1. The responses provided interesting food for thought and now I think it possible that Thomas NEIL might have slipped under the conscription radar if he arrived on Tyneside from Ireland in early 1918, did not declare himself for service and married shortly afterwards in June 1918. This scenario would certainly account for the absence of records in England & Wales before the marriage certificate. I noted that one of the conscription exemptions was for married men. Did conscription endure until the signing of the armistice on 11 November 1918 or a later date? Regards Charles Atkinson, Niagara Falls, Canada.

Hi Adrian A point well made As there was never conscription introduced in Ireland, any Irish man who moved to England would have to declare himself in some way to be picked up by the conscription process there, as there was free movement between Ireland and England, Wales or Scotland there would be little to record the fact unless he volunteered it in some way There was a National Registration Act passed in 1915 to establish how many eligible men resided in the Country but if a man arrived after that how would that fact be picked up? I don't know the answer to that Volunteering came to an end with the start of conscription in Jan 1916, the nationality, origins or choice of unit had little to do with where they ended up Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 30/04/2013 08:53, Adrian Abbott wrote: > I'm no expert on the subject, but surely there was no such thing as an > "Irish National" until 1922? > > Many Irish in the Northeast signed up for the war, in bodies such as > the Tyneside Irish battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers. > Strangely though, my great-uncle ended up in it but he came from > Durham. > > Adrian

> Charles Atkinson <[email protected]> wrote: >>Were there any restrictions in conscripting Irsh nationals, even >>though at that time Ireland was part of Great Britain, that would >>allow Thomas to avoid conscription? Or were shipyard workers, even >>labourers, in an exempted occupation? Charles Dear Charles, Being born in in Ireland was not an exemption to conscription, as Ireland was part of Great Britain at that time. Being a Labourer in the Shipyards was not an exemption as over 30,000 Durham miners enlisted. See the Military Service Act 1916 http://www.1914-1918.net/msa1916.html Your relative might of been exempted on Health Grounds. I know of a man who was a labourer and was exempt, as he could not straighten one of his arms, because of scar tissue from a scalding as a child. John Walker, Newcastle upon Tyne [email protected] http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~littleblobby/ http://www.freewebs.com/littleblobby/

I'm no expert on the subject, but surely there was no such thing as an "Irish National" until 1922? Many Irish in the Northeast signed up for the war, in bodies such as the Tyneside Irish battalion of the Northumberland Fusiliers. Strangely though, my great-uncle ended up in it but he came from Durham. Adrian

Even more so in W.W.2 than W.W.1. Mike Temple. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Pears" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [NMB] Thomas NEIL & Isabella KIRKLAND > Charles Atkinson <[email protected]> wrote: >>Were there any restrictions in conscripting Irsh nationals, even >>though at that time Ireland was part of Great Britain, that would >>allow Thomas to avoid conscription? Or were shipyard workers, even >>labourers, in an exempted occupation? > > Charles > > I would be very surprised if shipyard workers of any type were > conscripted - building and repairing warships was vital to the > war effort. > > Brian > -- > Brian Pears (Joint List Admin - NORTHUMBRIA Mailing List) > .. > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A sideline to this topic is how the Irish and Irish-rooted were encouraged to enlist in the "Tyneside Irish" ( and the Scots into the "Tyneside Scottish" ). Michael .. > Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any > reply...... Thank you! > > The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at > http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message .. Please remember to snip most of the earlier message before you post any reply...... Thank you! The NORTHUMBRIA FAQ page is located at http://www.bpears.org.uk/NorthumbriaFAQ/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Charles There was never conscription in Ireland, although a great many volunteered How that effected Irish men in England I don't know but would suspect if he was an Irish National he would not be conscripted wherever he was And as Brian says, it seems unlikely he would be conscripted anyway as a shipyard worker Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 29/04/2013 21:39, Charles Atkinson wrote: > Hello Everyone > > I have a question concerning conscription of shipyard workers into the > armed forces during WW1. > > Thomas NEIL, age 34, shipyard labourer, bachelor, married Isabella KIRKLAND > in the Tynemouth Register Office in June 1918. All searches in earlier > censuses and BMD records failed to find him. I suspect that he was born in > Armagh, Ireland, and came to Tyneside (Willington Quay) a short time before > the marriage. > > An occupation as a shipyard labourer suggests that he was in decent > physical health and yet he was not conscripted. > > Were there any restrictions in conscripting Irsh nationals, even though at > that time Ireland was part of Great Britain, that would allow Thomas to > avoid conscription? Or were shipyard workers, even labourers, in an > exempted occupation? > > Regards > > Charles Atkinson, Niagara Falls, Canada.

Charles Atkinson <[email protected]> wrote: >Were there any restrictions in conscripting Irsh nationals, even >though at that time Ireland was part of Great Britain, that would >allow Thomas to avoid conscription? Or were shipyard workers, even >labourers, in an exempted occupation? Charles I would be very surprised if shipyard workers of any type were conscripted - building and repairing warships was vital to the war effort. Brian -- Brian Pears (Joint List Admin - NORTHUMBRIA Mailing List)

Hello Everyone I have a question concerning conscription of shipyard workers into the armed forces during WW1. Thomas NEIL, age 34, shipyard labourer, bachelor, married Isabella KIRKLAND in the Tynemouth Register Office in June 1918. All searches in earlier censuses and BMD records failed to find him. I suspect that he was born in Armagh, Ireland, and came to Tyneside (Willington Quay) a short time before the marriage. An occupation as a shipyard labourer suggests that he was in decent physical health and yet he was not conscripted. Were there any restrictions in conscripting Irsh nationals, even though at that time Ireland was part of Great Britain, that would allow Thomas to avoid conscription? Or were shipyard workers, even labourers, in an exempted occupation? Regards Charles Atkinson, Niagara Falls, Canada.

Hi I can't find the birth reg in Glendale reg district referred to below (sorry if I have misunderstood), but a birth of a Francis Murray was registered in the Dec quarter of 1838 in the Berwick upon Tweed reg district. This district included Tweedmouth (but not Lowick). Looking at the 1851 and 1861 census images (when Francis was living with his parents), his birthplace is given as Tweedmouth at that time. There were lots of non-conformist congregations in the area, and just over the border in Scotland. I wonder if the Francis Simpson & Catharine Simpson living in the next household in the same building in 1841 are a potential lead, given that Francis is not that common a name up north? Relationships are not given in the 1841 census, and in 1851 Francis Simpson is aged 31, and married to Isabella (his mother in law is Margaret Redpath in 1871), so the Catharine in 1841 may be his sister. Looking for Francis Simpson on www.familysearch.org I found this entry: Catharine Simpson Birth Date: 25 May 1813 Birthplace: WALKERGATE LANE CALVINISTIC BAPTIST,BERWICK UPON TWEED,NORTHUMBERLAND,ENGLAND Father's Name: Francis Simpson Mother's Name: Margt. Simpson In 1851, Thomas & Mary Murray have a daughter named Margaret and a son named Francis. If you get the birth certificate for Francis Murray, it should give you his mother's maiden name. If it is Simpson, then the above info may suggest some avenues to go down. You will be able to order the film with the above birth record for Catharine Simpson to view at a nearby LDS family history centre - see www.familysearch for the film catalogue and addresses of the nearest FHC. Note that Baptists did not/do not practice infant baptism, so you have to hope they kept comprehensive birth records - I understand practice varied. I checked a transcript of Lowick Presbyterian baps and could not see Francis there. A Robert and Elizabeth Murray had a couple of children baptised there in the 1840s but no Francis. Hope some of this helps. Ingrid On 28/04/2013, at 5:26 AM, Kath Liddell wrote: > Eric > > There appears to be only one possible birth registered in the Lowick > area (Glendale) for Francis Murray i.e. b 1838 (DecQ). There is a birth > of Jane Halliday also in the same quarter, although there is another > option in 1845. > > Tracing this family through all the censuses it appears as if the 1881 > and 1891 you mention are out of sync with the others. You will see this > if you track the ages of the children, and then later the widowed Jane > when she is living with son Thomas. It seems that Frank actually has no > idea how old he is, but when the census data are (apparently) recorded > by his parents (1841, 1851, 1861), then his son (1901, 1911), the ages > are more consistent.

Either they couldn't count or they had really bad memories. - Or the enumerator had really bad handwriting! Remember all the census entries which have been quoted are transcripts. Geoff Nicholson -----Original Message----- From: ERIC JOHNSON <[email protected]> To: northumbria <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, 28 Apr 2013 11:11 Subject: Re: [NMB] Murray of Lowick Thanks Ingrid Another weird thing about it is awful discrepancy in ages on the census records

Thanks Ingrid Another weird thing about it is awful discrepancy in ages on the census records   1871 Lowick Frank Murray, head, married, 34, labourer at limeworks, born at Lowick Jane Murray, wife, married, 34, , born at Lowick Thomas Murray, son, , 11 months, , born at Lowick 1881 Pegswood Frank Murray, head, married, 34, coal miner, born at Lowick Jane Murray, wife, married, 31, , born at Lowick Thomas Murray, son, , 13, scholar , born at Lowick John Murray, son, , 7, scholar, born at Lowick Mary A Murray, daughter, , 4, , born at Bothal 1891 Bothal Frank Murray, head, married, 46, keeper (?), born at Lowick Jane Murray, wife, married, 48, , born at Bowsden John Murray, son, unmarried, 19, coal miner, born at Lowick Mary A Murray, daughter, , 14, , born at Pegswood Mary A Halliday, relative, widow, 70, , Berwick    (I think she is Franks mother-in-law) Either they couldn't count or they had really bad memories. Eric