Another view of the War of the Roses. Jean in NS ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Stockdill" <roystock@compuserve.com> To: <CHESHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:32 AM Subject: [CHS] Wars of the Roses Rodney Hall wrote..... >>For those interested, I have just posted a brief account of the Wars of the Roses on the Genealogy Docs page of the URL below.<< EXCELLENT site, Rodney! However, I hope you will forgive me if I make a few additional comments of my own about the Wars of the Roses, having made a bit of a study of them over the years. I know this is not a Yorkshire or Lancashire list, but Cheshire is pretty close to both and I am sure many people will be as interested in the Wars as I am. And of course, Margaret of Anjou, Henry VI's Queen, was associated with Chester. There are a few myths taught to every schoolchild about the Wars of the Roses that need exploding..... 1) They were never territorial confrontations between Lancashire and Yorkshire, rather clashes between two warring branches of the same royal house of Plantagenet, i.e. the Houses of York and Lancaster. Many Yorkshiremen, in fact, fought for the House of Lancaster, principally because they had little choice as their feudal overlords with vast estates in Yorkshire were on the Lancastrian side. Prominent among these were the Cliffords of Skipton Castle. 2) Though the wars dragged on for 30 years, it was never a period of continuous - in the sense of daily - turbulence. There were long periods when peace reigned and much of the nation was totally unaffected by the sporadic outbursts of violence and changes of monarch. 3) The principal myth is that the Wars of the Roses were so called because the combatants wore white or red roses on the battlefield to distinguish one side from another. There is absolutely no historical evidence whatsoever for this. It was almost certainly a creation of Shakespeare's in Henry VI Part 1, in the famous scene in Temple Gardens when Richard Plantagenet of York and the Lancastrian Duke of Somerset argue hotly. Richard plucks a white rose and calls upon those who support him to do likewise, whereupon Somerset takes a red rose as his emblem. Shakespeare's historical sources for the wars, Edward Hall (c. 1498-1547) and Ralph Holinshed (c. 1528- c.1580), made no mention of roses being used as emblems and, in fact, the first known literary reference to the actual phrase "Wars of the Roses" occurs as late as 1829 in Sir Walter Scott's novel, "Anne of Geierstein", though there had been references to such phrases as "the warring roses factions" in earlier centuries. The Temple Gardens scene never happened. It was a dramatic device of The Bard, who embellished the wars largely to please his monarch Elizabeth I, whose grandfather Henry VII was the victor of Bosworth Field. It is also often claimed that Henry VII created the Tudor Rose from the roses of Lancaster and York to symbolise the reuniting of the two royal houses, following his marriage to the Yorkist heir Elizabeth. The true facts are told in the historian Alison Weir's book, "Lancaster & York: The Wars of the Roses." Weir describes the roses myth as "a colourful legend" with no truth in it. There is some evidence that the white rose was one of the badges of the House of York and the red rose one of the symbols of Lancaster, but minor ones. The Yorkist King Edward IV's personal badge was the falcon and fetterlock, not the white rose. Weir says York civic records show that in 1486 Henry, while touring the north, gave orders for a pageant to be held at York, incorporating a "royal, rich red rose, unto which rose shall appear another rich, white rose, unto whom all flowers shall give sovereignty, and there shall come from the cloud a crown covering the roses." Thus evolved the Tudor badge of the Rose and Crown, representing the union of Lancaster and York - a blatant piece of propaganda by Henry VII. Yes, there were red and white rose badges, but they were never worn on the battlefields by Yorkists or Lancastrians. Shakespeare and Henry VII between them created a tale that is believed by every schoolchild. With apologies to those who have no interest in the Wars of the Roses! Roy Stockdill, Editor, The Journal of One-Name Studies The Stockdill Family History Society Web page:- http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/roystock Web page of the Guild of One-Name Studies:- http://www.one-name.org "Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does he will tell you. If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith (scholar and humorist 1771-1845) CHESHIRE interests - PLEVIN and WILLIAMS at Nantwich/Acton-by-Nantwich, pre 1814 ==== CHESHIRE Mailing List ==== Cheshire Library Services: http://www.u-net.com/cheshire/library/home.htm --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.230 / Virus Database: 111 - Release Date: 1/25/01

Jean I found that truly fascinating. I dropped History at 13 because I couldn't remember dates which was an essential talent in those days. Jim Sharpe Manchester U K ----- Original Message ----- From: Jean White <jphwhite@ns.sympatico.ca> To: <NORTHERN-ENGLAND-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 06/mm/01 11:50 AM Subject: [NTH-ENG] Fw: [CHS] Wars of the Roses > Another view of the War of the Roses. > > Jean in NS > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy Stockdill" <roystock@compuserve.com> > To: <CHESHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 7:32 AM > Subject: [CHS] Wars of the Roses > > > Rodney Hall wrote..... > > >>For those interested, I have just posted a brief account of the Wars of > the > Roses on the Genealogy Docs page of the URL below.<< > > EXCELLENT site, Rodney! However, I hope you will forgive me if I make a few > additional comments of my own about the Wars of the Roses, having made a > bit of a study of them over the years. I know this is not a Yorkshire or > Lancashire list, but Cheshire is pretty close to both and I am sure many > people will be as interested in the Wars as I am. And of course, Margaret > of Anjou, Henry VI's Queen, was associated with Chester. There are a few > myths taught to every schoolchild about the Wars of the Roses that need > exploding..... > > 1) They were never territorial confrontations between Lancashire and > Yorkshire, rather clashes between two warring branches of the same royal > house of Plantagenet, i.e. the Houses of York and Lancaster. Many > Yorkshiremen, in fact, fought for the House of Lancaster, principally > because they had little choice as their feudal overlords with vast estates > in Yorkshire were on the Lancastrian side. Prominent among these were the > Cliffords of Skipton Castle. > > 2) Though the wars dragged on for 30 years, it was never a period of > continuous - in the sense of daily - turbulence. There were long periods > when peace reigned and much of the nation was totally unaffected by the > sporadic outbursts of violence and changes of monarch. > > 3) The principal myth is that the Wars of the Roses were so called because > the combatants wore white or red roses on the battlefield to distinguish > one side from another. There is absolutely no historical evidence > whatsoever for this. It was almost certainly a creation of Shakespeare's in > Henry VI Part 1, in the famous scene in Temple Gardens when Richard > Plantagenet of York and the Lancastrian Duke of Somerset argue hotly. > Richard plucks a white rose and calls upon those who support him to do > likewise, whereupon Somerset takes a red rose as his emblem. Shakespeare's > historical sources for the wars, Edward Hall (c. 1498-1547) and Ralph > Holinshed (c. 1528- c.1580), made no mention of roses being used as emblems > and, in fact, the first known literary reference to the actual phrase "Wars > of the Roses" occurs as late as 1829 in Sir Walter Scott's novel, "Anne of > Geierstein", though there had been references to such phrases as "the > warring roses factions" in earlier centuries. The Temple Gardens scene > never happened. It was a dramatic device of The Bard, who embellished the > wars largely to please his monarch Elizabeth I, whose grandfather Henry VII > was the victor of Bosworth Field. > > It is also often claimed that Henry VII created the Tudor Rose from the > roses of Lancaster and York to symbolise the reuniting of the two royal > houses, following his marriage to the Yorkist heir Elizabeth. The true > facts are told in the historian Alison Weir's book, "Lancaster & York: The > Wars of the Roses." Weir describes the roses myth as "a colourful legend" > with no truth in it. There is some evidence that the white rose was one of > the badges of the House of York and the red rose one of the symbols of > Lancaster, but minor ones. The Yorkist King Edward IV's personal badge was > the falcon and fetterlock, not the white rose. Weir says York civic records > show that in 1486 Henry, while touring the north, gave orders for a pageant > to be held at York, incorporating a "royal, rich red rose, unto which rose > shall appear another rich, white rose, unto whom all flowers shall give > sovereignty, and there shall come from the cloud a crown covering the > roses." Thus evolved the Tudor badge of the Rose and Crown, representing > the union of Lancaster and York - a blatant piece of propaganda by Henry > VII. Yes, there were red and white rose badges, but they were never worn on > the battlefields by Yorkists or Lancastrians. Shakespeare and Henry VII > between them created a tale that is believed by every schoolchild. > > With apologies to those who have no interest in the Wars of the Roses! > > Roy Stockdill, Editor, The Journal of One-Name Studies > The Stockdill Family History Society > Web page:- http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/roystock > Web page of the Guild of One-Name Studies:- http://www.one-name.org > "Never ask a man if he comes from Yorkshire. If he does he will tell you. > If he does not, why humiliate him?" - Canon Sydney Smith (scholar and > humorist 1771-1845) > CHESHIRE interests - PLEVIN and WILLIAMS at Nantwich/Acton-by-Nantwich, pre > 1814 > > > ==== CHESHIRE Mailing List ==== > Cheshire Library Services: > http://www.u-net.com/cheshire/library/home.htm > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.230 / Virus Database: 111 - Release Date: 1/25/01 > > > ==== NORTHERN-ENGLAND Mailing List ==== > This list also allows Trivia postings about the region as well as serious genealogy research postings. > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.231 / Virus Database: 112 - Release Date: 12/02/01