Renewing my search for one of my aunts Rose or sometimes Rosa Fisher born Paston 1891 daughter of Albert Herbert Fisher and Harriet nee Rowe Appears on 1901 census in Scarborough 1911 census in Norwich (no further details readily available) Marries a Henry W Clarke June 1912 in Norwich A Henry W Clarke of about the right age , 28, dies in 1916 in Kings Lynn. No offspring found. Have scoured FreeBMD for a remarriage or death. Seems Rose A Clarke was a popular name! One , of the right age, 49, dies in Hackney in 1940. A letter from one of her nieces indicated the Rose died in a train crash. Unable to substantiate this and the niece died before I could pursue it further. I realise Clarkes and Fishers abound but hopeful that somebody can add to my meagre information. Additional 1911 census info would be grateful David

Hi Carol My g grandfather Norman Bamber was not married to my g grandmother, Fanny Shenton, when my maternal grandmother Florence Nellie Shenton was born in 1884. Norman went on to marry Clara Jane Teague in 1888, but not before they had 2 children, Orlando in 1886 and Norman in 1887. They went on to have 5 more children. Meanwhile Fanny married Daniel Pulling in 1885 and they went on to have 6 children. I can find no evidence of my grandmother ever living with her mother. She appears to have been raised by her father and stepmother. My g grandmother was not a good mother. Her husband and children all spent time in a workhouse, but she did not. Daniel worked hard to get his children out of the workhouse. Fanny eventually died as the result of alcohol. To answer your question, yes, I believe a man could have custody of his son if there was a woman in the picture to help raise the child. Wendy, Australia This is not truly related to Norfolk alone but I wondered if anyone could answer a query for me. My great grandfather seems to have had a illegitimate son in 1885 -g-g-grandfather marries as a bachelor in 1887 and again as a widower in 1890. My query is - would he have custody of the son born 1885 if the mother was still alive. I have searched for a death for her but found nothing. The surname of the wife in 1887 is not the surname of the mother of the son born in 1885. The child is with my great grandfather on census returns in 1891 and 1901. I seem to have been going around in circles trying to work this out and thought it was time to try the experts on the Norfolk Mailing List . Thank you in anticipation Carol

Thank you for that Wendy - another line to take - I will check to see if the mother married someone else. On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Wendy Cooksey via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi Carol > > My g grandfather Norman Bamber was not married to my g grandmother, Fanny > Shenton, when my maternal grandmother Florence Nellie Shenton was born in > 1884. > > Norman went on to marry Clara Jane Teague in 1888, but not before they had > 2 > children, Orlando in 1886 and Norman in 1887. They went on to have 5 more > children. > > Meanwhile Fanny married Daniel Pulling in 1885 and they went on to have 6 > children. I can find no evidence of my grandmother ever living with her > mother. She appears to have been raised by her father and stepmother. > > My g grandmother was not a good mother. Her husband and children all spent > time in a workhouse, but she did not. Daniel worked hard to get his > children out of the workhouse. Fanny eventually died as the result of > alcohol. > > To answer your question, yes, I believe a man could have custody of his son > if there was a woman in the picture to help raise the child. > > > Wendy, Australia > > This is not truly related to Norfolk alone but I wondered if anyone could > answer a query for me. My great grandfather seems to have had a > illegitimate son in 1885 -g-g-grandfather marries as a bachelor in 1887 > and > again as a widower in 1890. My query is - would he have custody of the son > born 1885 if the mother was still alive. I have searched for a death for > her but found nothing. The surname of the wife in 1887 is not the surname > of the mother of the son born in 1885. The child is with my great > grandfather on census returns in 1891 and 1901. I seem to have been going > around in circles trying to work this out and thought it was time to try > the > experts on the Norfolk Mailing List . Thank you in anticipation Carol > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORFOLK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Like it or not there were some women who were not good mothers, or ran off with the milkman (etc) or simply the father wanted the child under his control for whatever reason There are so many scenarios it could be that only more research may uncover something Check the available newspapers in case there was a report of it, then as now they loved the gory details, the more salacious the better Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 27/06/2016 14:52, Carol Wordingham wrote: > Thank you for that Nivard - just seems strange to me that a father > should have the child - although he was working so could have supported > it with his mother's help. Maybe I will never get to solve this > particular mystery. Carol

Thank you for that Nivard - just seems strange to me that a father should have the child - although he was working so could have supported it with his mother's help. Maybe I will never get to solve this particular mystery. Carol On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Nivard Ovington via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Hi Carol > > Custody then was a matter of who had the child, ie who was the stronger > individual > > Adoption was not official until 1927, previous to that adoption and or > fostering was a private affair > > Unless there was some action on the part of the mother or father through > the courts, you are unlikely to find anything > > Children were often put out with relatives where the father had to work > or the mother was not capable or around to look after them, but there > are many scenarios > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 27/06/2016 13:59, Carol Wordingham via wrote: > > This is not truly related to Norfolk alone but I wondered if anyone could > > answer a query for me. My great grandfather seems to have had a > > illegitimate son in 1885 -g-g-grandfather marries as a bachelor in 1887 > > and again as a widower in 1890. My query is - would he have custody of > the > > son born 1885 if the mother was still alive. I have searched for a death > > for her but found nothing. The surname of the wife in 1887 is not the > > surname of the mother of the son born in 1885. The child is with my great > > grandfather on census returns in 1891 and 1901. I seem to have been going > > around in circles trying to work this out and thought it was time to try > > the experts on the Norfolk Mailing List . Thank you in anticipation > Carol > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORFOLK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Carol Custody then was a matter of who had the child, ie who was the stronger individual Adoption was not official until 1927, previous to that adoption and or fostering was a private affair Unless there was some action on the part of the mother or father through the courts, you are unlikely to find anything Children were often put out with relatives where the father had to work or the mother was not capable or around to look after them, but there are many scenarios Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 27/06/2016 13:59, Carol Wordingham via wrote: > This is not truly related to Norfolk alone but I wondered if anyone could > answer a query for me. My great grandfather seems to have had a > illegitimate son in 1885 -g-g-grandfather marries as a bachelor in 1887 > and again as a widower in 1890. My query is - would he have custody of the > son born 1885 if the mother was still alive. I have searched for a death > for her but found nothing. The surname of the wife in 1887 is not the > surname of the mother of the son born in 1885. The child is with my great > grandfather on census returns in 1891 and 1901. I seem to have been going > around in circles trying to work this out and thought it was time to try > the experts on the Norfolk Mailing List . Thank you in anticipation Carol

What are the details you have so we can have a look? Jan Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: Carol Wordingham via

This is not truly related to Norfolk alone but I wondered if anyone could answer a query for me. My great grandfather seems to have had a illegitimate son in 1885 -g-g-grandfather marries as a bachelor in 1887 and again as a widower in 1890. My query is - would he have custody of the son born 1885 if the mother was still alive. I have searched for a death for her but found nothing. The surname of the wife in 1887 is not the surname of the mother of the son born in 1885. The child is with my great grandfather on census returns in 1891 and 1901. I seem to have been going around in circles trying to work this out and thought it was time to try the experts on the Norfolk Mailing List . Thank you in anticipation Carol

Hi Elizabeth They are organised under regiment, then Division Go to the War Diaries (France, Belgium and Germany) 1914 - 1920 On the right select Lincolnshire regiment from the drop down menu Then under that is a sub drop down menu, select 21st Division There are three options for 1st, 2nd and 8th Btn Select the first for the 1st Battalion Piece 2154/1: 1 Battalion (WO95 2154/1) It should show page 1 of 648 Enter page 177 and go to it, there are seven pages for the 25th Sept 1916 Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 21/06/2016 15:46, elizgh@btinternet.com wrote: > Hi , sorry to hijack this Inquest thread > , but does anyone know how to access the war diaries of 1st Bttn > Lincolnshire Regt for 25th Sept 1916 when the son of Rector of Bexwell > died at Gueudecourt. Ancestry seems to have them but not in > alphabetical order nor in chronological order ........how do you find > Sept 1916 ?

If on a death certificate, if an inquest was carried out it would be marked on the death certificate, normally registered by the coroner If its not on the certificate, there wasn't an inquest Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 21/06/2016 14:36, Virginmedia.com via wrote: > If natural causes there might not have been an inquest ,nfhs has death returns on their database ,you have to be a member to view but well worth the cost . > > Jean Stangroom > Chair and membership sec nfhs . >

If natural causes there might not have been an inquest ,nfhs has death returns on their database ,you have to be a member to view but well worth the cost . Jean Stangroom Chair and membership sec nfhs . Sent from my iPad > On 20 Jun 2016, at 20:37, mjquilts <mjquilts@shaw.ca> wrote: > > > > Thanks for all of the help about inquest records . I had gone to google to try and learn when I should have come to the best first. > > Thank you for sharing your knowledge and maybe you helped someone other than me. > > The relative in question died of fatty degeneration of her heart I believe and so I doubt it would make the papers. Since heart disease runs in the family I was curious to see what this related to. > > Thanks again and when I need help I will consult the Norfolk list first and google last. > > Sincerely > Jean

Yes you should at least check The British Newspaper Archive. You can do a narrowed search on the year and see if anything comes up, and it will not cost you anything to do the search, only to obtain copies of the results. (For those in the UK, your local library may well have a subscription.) The main point of my comment was that you may well not find anything because the relevant newspapers have not been scanned yet. For any resource, one should always check coverage. Yes others newspapers may well have news outside their region, but one should remember also that: - they obtain this directly from the local newspapers, i.e. get it sent to them and then extract interesting material. There is no independent reporting here. - generally they tend to report material likely to be of interest to their own readership (so the inquest on a murder victim or as a result of an explosion yes, as a result of a drowning, probably not. - an report even if found may well be considerably shortened. I have at least one instance where 6 column inches in the local newspaper becomes three lines in a non-local newspaper. - the presence will also depend on the supply or absence of local material. So even if you do find a report in a non-local newspaper, you will probably still need to find the local newspaper report to ensure you have the fullest account. regards Keith Drage On 20-Jun-16 12:04 PM, Nivard Ovington via wrote: > To add to that very good advice, it should be noted that generally they > scan only some copies, ie not every day of a daily publication > > So if it appeared on a Monday say and that copy isn't as yet scanned as > they only scanned Tuesdays papers for that title, it may have been in > another days papers elsewhere which has been scanned > > So well worth checking the widest area if possible > > NB the only newspaper report of my g.g.g.grandmothers death in 1866 > Uxbridge was in a Sydney Australia newspaper, one of her sons entered an > announcement, it does not appear to be in any UK paper available so far, > so it pays to cast the net far and wide sometimes > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 20/06/2016 11:48, Brad Rogers via wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:59:02 +0100 >> Keith Drage via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: >> >> Hello Keith, >> >>> I would suggest your main source of material would be newspaper >>> records. The British Newspaper Archive currently only has the Bury and >>> Norwich Post up to 1900, The Ipswich Journal to 1902, and the Norfolk >>> Chronicle >> In my, admittedly limited, experience of the newspaper archives, it's >> generally a good idea to avoid limiting one's search to newspapers of >> the locality of interest. For example, the most complete report I found >> of a child death (by gunshot, no less) in Kent was reported in a Scottish >> newspaper. That particular story was reported in several other papers >> too. There's no doubt that, in the particular case cited above, the >> cause of death played a not insignificant role in getting the story >> reported elsewhere. Even so, limiting searches can prove to be a >> mistake. >> >> It seems to me that such small stories would sometimes (often?) be >> picked up by other local papers because of having pages to fill and not >> everything locally being of sufficient interest or importance to make it >> in. >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORFOLK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thanks for all of the help about inquest records . I had gone to google to try and learn when I should have come to the best first. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and maybe you helped someone other than me. The relative in question died of fatty degeneration of her heart I believe and so I doubt it would make the papers. Since heart disease runs in the family I was curious to see what this related to. Thanks again and when I need help I will consult the Norfolk list first  and google last. Sincerely Jean

Hello Jean, My starting point would be Norfolk Record Office. Their online catalogue is at http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/Dserve/public/nrocoverage.htm Regards Peter -----Original Message----- From: norfolk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:norfolk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of mjquilts via Sent: Monday, June 20, 2016 05:13 To: norfolk@rootsweb.com Subject: [NFK] Inquest records Can anyone tell me how to access an inquest record for 1907 in Norwich. Thank you Jean

To add to that very good advice, it should be noted that generally they scan only some copies, ie not every day of a daily publication So if it appeared on a Monday say and that copy isn't as yet scanned as they only scanned Tuesdays papers for that title, it may have been in another days papers elsewhere which has been scanned So well worth checking the widest area if possible NB the only newspaper report of my g.g.g.grandmothers death in 1866 Uxbridge was in a Sydney Australia newspaper, one of her sons entered an announcement, it does not appear to be in any UK paper available so far, so it pays to cast the net far and wide sometimes Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 20/06/2016 11:48, Brad Rogers via wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:59:02 +0100 > Keith Drage via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > Hello Keith, > >> I would suggest your main source of material would be newspaper >> records. The British Newspaper Archive currently only has the Bury and >> Norwich Post up to 1900, The Ipswich Journal to 1902, and the Norfolk >> Chronicle > > In my, admittedly limited, experience of the newspaper archives, it's > generally a good idea to avoid limiting one's search to newspapers of > the locality of interest. For example, the most complete report I found > of a child death (by gunshot, no less) in Kent was reported in a Scottish > newspaper. That particular story was reported in several other papers > too. There's no doubt that, in the particular case cited above, the > cause of death played a not insignificant role in getting the story > reported elsewhere. Even so, limiting searches can prove to be a > mistake. > > It seems to me that such small stories would sometimes (often?) be > picked up by other local papers because of having pages to fill and not > everything locally being of sufficient interest or importance to make it > in. >

On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 10:59:02 +0100 Keith Drage via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: Hello Keith, >I would suggest your main source of material would be newspaper >records. The British Newspaper Archive currently only has the Bury and >Norwich Post up to 1900, The Ipswich Journal to 1902, and the Norfolk >Chronicle In my, admittedly limited, experience of the newspaper archives, it's generally a good idea to avoid limiting one's search to newspapers of the locality of interest. For example, the most complete report I found of a child death (by gunshot, no less) in Kent was reported in a Scottish newspaper. That particular story was reported in several other papers too. There's no doubt that, in the particular case cited above, the cause of death played a not insignificant role in getting the story reported elsewhere. Even so, limiting searches can prove to be a mistake. It seems to me that such small stories would sometimes (often?) be picked up by other local papers because of having pages to fill and not everything locally being of sufficient interest or importance to make it in. -- Regards _ / ) "The blindingly obvious is / _)rad never immediately apparent" There's no point in asking you'll get no reply Pretty Vacant - Sex Pistols

A hand-written upper case H can look like St. But they should know better! -----Original Message----- From: norfolk-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:norfolk-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Carol Wordingham via Sent: 20 June 2016 10:41 To: kate.hywood@btinternet.com; Norfolk mailing list Subject: Re: [NFK] Ingoldisthorpe census spelling error on Ancestry I have also noticed that in 1911 much of Holt is listed as Stolt and Weybourne - not sure how that came about. On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:45 AM, KATE AMES via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Not necessarily an error Robin. Norfolk people "du different" and spelt > things however they felt. All spellings were acceptable. Kate > ----Original message---- <snip>

In general much coroner's material does not survive (coroners are permitted to destroy material more than 15 years old, unless it predates 1875). While you will see coroner's listed on local government websites, they are independent and maintain their own records. (While this is not a problem with your date, it is also worth noting that coroner's records are generally closed for 75 years, and the coroner's permission will need to be sought when this applies). There is some material in Norfolk Record Office, but I suspect few if no detailed reports of individual inquests. If you go to the online catalogue and use "coroner" along with possibly "norwich" as an index term you will get a detailed list of their holdings (The material generally has the index prefix COR). http://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/ and then select NROCAT. To access any of this material you will need to go to Norfolk Record Office itself. It may also be worth checking The National Archives Discovery catalogue with the same index terms, as there is some miscellaneous Norwich material there (most of the records identified will be back to Norfolk Record Office holdings - unfortunately this will also turn up entries for Norwich coronations!). Your other option is to try the coroner's office directly, but given that the material identified above been deposited, I would think you would be out of luck. https://www.norfolk.gov.uk/births-ceremonies-and-deaths/deaths/the-coroner/contact-the-coroner I would suggest your main source of material would be newspaper records. The British Newspaper Archive currently only has the Bury and Norwich Post up to 1900, The Ipswich Journal to 1902, and the Norfolk Chronicle to 1869 (however material is being added all the time). List is here: http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/home/NewspaperTitles It is just possible (if there was something remarkable about the death or the inquest) that a small record may have found its way into national newspapers, so it may be worth checking the Times Digital Archive, which may well be in libraries near you. Alternatively give me a name and a more precise date, and I could check this for you. So for newspaper coverage you may either need to go to the British Library directly, or newspaper offices directly such as the Eastern Daily Press. http://www.edp24.co.uk/home/contact-us My assumption is that you live in Canada, so unfortunately very little of the above will help directly, unless you employ, or otherwise obtain the assistance of, a researcher, or are planning a visit to the UK. You may find someone on the list who is prepared to do a lookup for you, as part of their own visit to Norwich, if you can be specific about what you want checked. regards Keith Drage On 20-Jun-16 5:12 AM, mjquilts via wrote: > Can anyone tell me how to access an inquest record for 1907 in Norwich. > > Thank you > Jean > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NORFOLK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Robin Names change over time and are sometimes reported incorrectly, either by people or in print For example, if you check Ancestry for a William BARHAM in the 1802 Poll books for Norfolk (UK, Poll Books and Electoral Registers, 1538-1893) you will find it spelled Ingoldesthorpe in print Once a place name enters a database such as Ancestry, when transcribers start to type, it draws the place name from the database, if first entered or interpreted as Ingoldesthorpe its likely to remain as same when the next person starts to type Ingold...... they will be presented with that as the first choice If Ancestry acknowledge it as an error, it will not be a quick fix, if they do it at all it may take years To get over this sort of problem a search for Ingold*thorpe would find both variations If you check Genuki for Ingoldisthorpe you will find the wording Norfolk: Ingoldisthorpe See Norfolk Parish Links for more information about this parish. Search Genuki Norfolk for a NAME or a PLACE or a TOPIC. Ingoldisthorpe is about 9 miles N.N.E. of King's Lynn. The name may also be spelled Ingoldesthorpe. http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/i/ingoldisthorpe/ Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 20/06/2016 06:15, Robin Poole via wrote: > On Ancestry I've noticed that Ingoldisthorpe is sometimes transcribed as Ingoldesthorpe. In fact the entire 1901 Census seems have been transcribed this way. So if you've been looking for someone who lived there and couldn't find them, now you might. I've contacted Ancestry to let them know about the error. > Robin Poole.

I have also noticed that in 1911 much of Holt is listed as Stolt and Weybourne - not sure how that came about. On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 8:45 AM, KATE AMES via <norfolk@rootsweb.com> wrote: > Not necessarily an error Robin. Norfolk people "du different" and spelt > things however they felt. All spellings were acceptable. Kate > ----Original message---- > >From : norfolk@rootsweb.com > Date : 20/06/2016 - 06:15 (GMTST) > To : norfolk@rootsweb.com > Subject : [NFK] Ingoldisthorpe census spelling error on Ancestry > > On Ancestry I've noticed that Ingoldisthorpe is sometimes transcribed as > Ingoldesthorpe. In fact the entire 1901 Census seems have been transcribed > this way. So if you've been looking for someone who lived there and > couldn't find them, now you might. I've contacted Ancestry to let them know > about the error. > Robin Poole. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORFOLK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NORFOLK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >