Hi Bill & List, As a direct descendant of John of GAUNT and his third wife, Katherine de ROET (widow of Sir Hugh Swynford), I am intrigued by this posting I discovered. Obviously, I missed some earlier posts regarding this subject, and would be interested in seeing them. I hope I am not perceived as being 'nosey' - I prefer to think of it as being 'curious.' In any event, if I have understood the two messages I copied below, Marjorie quite adequately described the history of the origins of the House of Lancaster. I do have a question as to the accuracy of Blanche's father having been the "Duke of Lancaster," as I understood the title of "Duke" was reserved for sons (or spouses) of monarchs - however, I too, have seen Henry of "Grosmont" (Blanche's father) referred to as the Duke of Lancaster. Should he not have been called the Earl of Lancaster, as was his father, Henry Plantagenet - son of Edmund "Crouchback" - the second son of Henry III? Based on your final comment in your E-mail, I think perhaps you may have misunderstood Marjorie's comments concerning the second son Edmund having established the House of Lancaster. This Edmund was Edmund "Crouchback" (b. 1/16/1245), the second son of England's King Henry III. The title of Duke of Lancaster was bestowed upon Edmund "Crouchback" by his father. Edmund's son Henry Plantagenet became the Earl of Lancaster upon the death of his eldest brother, Thomas who inherited the title from his father Edmund "Crouchback." When Thomas died childless, the title passed to Edmund "Crouchback's" next son, Henry Plantagenet. Both Henry Plantagenet and later, his son (Henry of Grosmont), bore the title "Earl of Lancaster" until the title once again became "Duke of Lancaster" through the 1359 marriage of Henry Plantagenet's granddaughter, Blanche & John of Gaunt (fourth son of King Edward III). If I am mistaken about the way the title of "Duke" passes, I hope someone will be kind enough to inform me. I understood the title of "Duke" was reserved for children (or, if applicable, sometimes spouses) of monarchs - such as Edmund "Crouchback" and later, John of Gaunt. Edmund 'Crouchback' was the brother of John of Gaunt's grandfather, King Edward I (or Edward "Longshanks") - which would make him the granduncle of John of Gaunt. I believe you are confusing this earlier Edmund with Edmund of Langley, born three generations later. Edmund of Langley was the fifth son of England's King Edward III (while John of Gaunt was Edward III's fourth son). Marjorie was correct - John of Gaunt became the Duke of Lancaster upon his marriage to his first wife, Blanche of Lancaster, daughter of Henry of "Grosmont" - Earl of Lancaster. Henry of Grosmont was the grandson of Edmund "Crouchback." The House of Lancaster came to the monarchy through the reign of Henry IV, son of John of Gaunt & Blanche of Lancaster. I know this can be rather confusing - I hope I haven't further "muddied the waters." Please forgive me if I misread your meaning. I mean no disrespect - I am merely attempting to understand. BTW, I am also a direct descendant of Edmund "Crouchback" through his son Henry (mentioned above) & Maud CHAWORTH. Their daughter, Eleanor PLANTAGENET & her husband Richard "Copped Hat" FITZALAN were my 19th great-grandparents. John of GAUNT & Katherine de ROET were my 18th great-grandparents. I wish you all a happy holiday. Respectfully, Pamela Rhett Molzan Charleston, SC [email protected] In a message dated 12/14/1999 9:40:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << "Marjorie B. Winter" wrote: > Bill: The House of Lancaster was founded by Edmund (1245-1296), second son > of Henry III. History records that the House of Lancaster was already well > established when John of Gaunt (1340-1399) married into it. His first wife > was Blanche, daughter and heiress of the wealthy, and prestigious Henry, > Duke of Lancaster. Typical of the politics and practices of the times, John > of Gaunt, fourth son of King Edward III, married (first and second) for > wealth and position. Only his third and last marriage, to his long-time > mistress Katherine de Roet Swynford, was a marriage of mutual affection. > Marj in NC > From: BILL CADMUS [mailto:[email protected]] Thank you Marj. I should have quoted the entire paragraph from which I quoted excerpts. It was originalled witten by local historian Oliver Leonard in 1918 for the Plainfield Courier News. . " Sarah Cadmus, born 1822, who married John Gaunt, who was descended from the famous John of Gaunt, fourth son of Edward III, of England, and himself founder of the house of Lancaster, of whose life and the stories of the royal and illustreous houses which traced their descent to him many great historical books have been written." Your data advising that Edmund, second son was the founder appears more correct. Regards, William Smalley Cadmus >>