Dear Harman Clark, Your advise (as seen below) concerning the authenticity of supposed "royal lineage" is indeed sound. I, too, searched for verification when I first discovered my line of descent. In my case, I wasn't so much interested in a royal descent as in that "particular" royal descent. You see, many years ago (while I was still in my teens) my mother introduced me to an historical novel entitled "Katherine" by Anya Seton. It is a story based on the long love affair and eventual marriage of John of Gaunt and Katherine de Roet. It became a favorite of mine and I instantly fell in love with the main characters. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that John of Gaunt and his Katherine were actually my 18th great-grandparents! Only one thing that could have made the discovery even more wonderful - to have been able to share my discovery with my mother before she died. After all, it is through her line that I can claim my descendancy! But then, I must remember that my Mom knows all now - in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it was she who led me to make the discovery in the first place. Upon making my discovery, I did exactly as you suggested, I sought verification of the claim of royal descendancy. As we all know, proof is of the utmost importance in genealogy. And I found the proof I was seeking it in the book you referenced by Gary Boyd Roberts, "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants." I don't have my paperwork before me, so I cannot supply the exact page number, but my descent is through Elizabeth Coytmore for anyone who may be interested. Unfortunately, not everyone who discovers they are descended from royalty is able to find such verification. I join you in cautioning folks to seek verification of their "royal lineage" claims and not to accept the information on "face value." Thank you for your concern and for your sound advise. I wish you all a happy holiday season. Sincerely, Pamela Rhett Molzan Charleston, SC In a message dated 12/16/1999 4:31:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: << I note considerable discussion of purported descents from John of Gaunt. The "genealogies" of the mid 1800s to early 1900s are replete with these "royal descents". Some, like Schenck and Dunham, are fraudulent; others, like Wright, are just faulty or unproven lines, based on the pre-Jacobus genealogy that assume that people with similar surnames were somehow related. Some of these long-discredited lines are now being given new life on the Internet. (I recently visited a website with an elaborate ancestry of my immgrant ancestor George Squire -- whose parents have not even been established). May I respectfully suggest that anyone wishing to establish or verify a royal line, consult one of the modern authorities on the subject, such as David Faris or Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. -- or even a popularized collection such as Gary Boyd Roberts' "The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants" [Geneal. Pub. Co. 1993]. There are some documented "royal line" families in the N.J. area -- such as Fitz Randolph, and some of the Stansborough>James>Bulkeley amilies -- but most of what is circulating is not valid. I make no judgment on the Cadmus discussion -- just suggesting that one check thoroughly before assuming. Harman Clark [email protected] >>

Hi, I got this off another mailing list I belong to. Happy Holidays, Dyane "Some Historic Christmas Sites " ������������Christmas Customs (Colonial Virginia). ��������������������http://www.history.org/life/xmas/customs.htm � � "Another Look At Christmas In The Eighteenth Century". ��������������������http://www.history.org/life/xmas/xmasqa.htm � � "Christmas, 1861-1865". � This site has 13 Confederate and 13 Union ����narratives on the thoughts/experiences of the men during the Civil War Christmas seasons, taken from their letters, diaries and memoirs. These accounts make for interesting and informative reading. ��������������������http://www.lib.utc.edu/preview/index.html � � "Christmas In The Confederate White House" written by Mrs. Jefferson ����Davis. ��������������������http://www.access.digex.net/~bdboyle/confed.xmas1.html � � We have a carol with this one. ��������������������http://www.civilweek.com/1861/dec2261.htm � � "Christmas In The Irish Regiments Of The Army Of The Potomac" ��������������������http://www.the ���������wildgeese.com/pages/chrstmas.html ��������������"Building New Holiday Traditions ��������������������http://www.ancestry.com/tour/tour2.along.htm

OOPS....sorry about that "maps" message... Haste makes waste and I clicked on the wrong address to send. But they are wonderful maps. Happy holidays to all. Alice in Vermont

Hi Bill & List, As a direct descendant of John of GAUNT and his third wife, Katherine de ROET (widow of Sir Hugh Swynford), I am intrigued by this posting I discovered. Obviously, I missed some earlier posts regarding this subject, and would be interested in seeing them. I hope I am not perceived as being 'nosey' - I prefer to think of it as being 'curious.' In any event, if I have understood the two messages I copied below, Marjorie quite adequately described the history of the origins of the House of Lancaster. I do have a question as to the accuracy of Blanche's father having been the "Duke of Lancaster," as I understood the title of "Duke" was reserved for sons (or spouses) of monarchs - however, I too, have seen Henry of "Grosmont" (Blanche's father) referred to as the Duke of Lancaster. Should he not have been called the Earl of Lancaster, as was his father, Henry Plantagenet - son of Edmund "Crouchback" - the second son of Henry III? Based on your final comment in your E-mail, I think perhaps you may have misunderstood Marjorie's comments concerning the second son Edmund having established the House of Lancaster. This Edmund was Edmund "Crouchback" (b. 1/16/1245), the second son of England's King Henry III. The title of Duke of Lancaster was bestowed upon Edmund "Crouchback" by his father. Edmund's son Henry Plantagenet became the Earl of Lancaster upon the death of his eldest brother, Thomas who inherited the title from his father Edmund "Crouchback." When Thomas died childless, the title passed to Edmund "Crouchback's" next son, Henry Plantagenet. Both Henry Plantagenet and later, his son (Henry of Grosmont), bore the title "Earl of Lancaster" until the title once again became "Duke of Lancaster" through the 1359 marriage of Henry Plantagenet's granddaughter, Blanche & John of Gaunt (fourth son of King Edward III). If I am mistaken about the way the title of "Duke" passes, I hope someone will be kind enough to inform me. I understood the title of "Duke" was reserved for children (or, if applicable, sometimes spouses) of monarchs - such as Edmund "Crouchback" and later, John of Gaunt. Edmund 'Crouchback' was the brother of John of Gaunt's grandfather, King Edward I (or Edward "Longshanks") - which would make him the granduncle of John of Gaunt. I believe you are confusing this earlier Edmund with Edmund of Langley, born three generations later. Edmund of Langley was the fifth son of England's King Edward III (while John of Gaunt was Edward III's fourth son). Marjorie was correct - John of Gaunt became the Duke of Lancaster upon his marriage to his first wife, Blanche of Lancaster, daughter of Henry of "Grosmont" - Earl of Lancaster. Henry of Grosmont was the grandson of Edmund "Crouchback." The House of Lancaster came to the monarchy through the reign of Henry IV, son of John of Gaunt & Blanche of Lancaster. I know this can be rather confusing - I hope I haven't further "muddied the waters." Please forgive me if I misread your meaning. I mean no disrespect - I am merely attempting to understand. BTW, I am also a direct descendant of Edmund "Crouchback" through his son Henry (mentioned above) & Maud CHAWORTH. Their daughter, Eleanor PLANTAGENET & her husband Richard "Copped Hat" FITZALAN were my 19th great-grandparents. John of GAUNT & Katherine de ROET were my 18th great-grandparents. I wish you all a happy holiday. Respectfully, Pamela Rhett Molzan Charleston, SC [email protected] In a message dated 12/14/1999 9:40:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected]re.net writes: << "Marjorie B. Winter" wrote: > Bill: The House of Lancaster was founded by Edmund (1245-1296), second son > of Henry III. History records that the House of Lancaster was already well > established when John of Gaunt (1340-1399) married into it. His first wife > was Blanche, daughter and heiress of the wealthy, and prestigious Henry, > Duke of Lancaster. Typical of the politics and practices of the times, John > of Gaunt, fourth son of King Edward III, married (first and second) for > wealth and position. Only his third and last marriage, to his long-time > mistress Katherine de Roet Swynford, was a marriage of mutual affection. > Marj in NC > From: BILL CADMUS [mailto:[email protected]] Thank you Marj. I should have quoted the entire paragraph from which I quoted excerpts. It was originalled witten by local historian Oliver Leonard in 1918 for the Plainfield Courier News. . " Sarah Cadmus, born 1822, who married John Gaunt, who was descended from the famous John of Gaunt, fourth son of Edward III, of England, and himself founder of the house of Lancaster, of whose life and the stories of the royal and illustreous houses which traced their descent to him many great historical books have been written." Your data advising that Edmund, second son was the founder appears more correct. Regards, William Smalley Cadmus >>

Hi Bill, Good to hear from you and thanks for the reply. I will also forward this to a friend, Charlene who is also working with Conklins and Piersons. Charlene and I have been talking about potential parents for Joseph and Joshua Conkling of Elizabeth, NJ and came up with Pierson and Hatch as potential surnames. Both Joseph and Joshua had grandsons or great grandsons with the name Pierson. My best guess is that their mother might have been a Pierson, so of course, I am looking. Joseph and Rebeccca (Ross) Conkling of Westfield had a son born in 1787 who was naemd Pierson. Have you come across that as a first name except when there is a family surname connection? Any thougths will be greatly appreciated. Sheri ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Magie <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 1999 6:57 AM Subject: Re: [NJUNION] More New Jersey Conklins > Sheri- It has been a long time since we last communicated. I noted your query > on Union, NJ site. I have a number of Conklins and Piersons. None of the ones > I had fit the marriage parameters that you gave. I do not have any Hatchs in > my database. > > Please let me know if I can help you further. > > Happy holidays. > > Bill Magie > > Sheri Iamele wrote: > > > Looking for any leads regarding a marriage of a woman with the surname of > > Hatch or Pierson to a Conklin man between 1700-1740. Perhaps on Long Island > > or Elizabeht, NJ or Westfield, NJ > > > > Sheri > > > > ==== NJUNION Mailing List ==== > > The best queries contain dates and locations. > > > ==== NJUNION Mailing List ==== > To contact the Union county listowner, send email to Robin at [email protected] >

Happy Holidays "friends", I took your suggestion and went to Barnes and Noble to look at their maps...(my hubbie indulged me while we were last minute shopping). I purchased Hagstrom's "New York City - 5 maps in 1" and Streetwise Maps Inc. "Streetwise Manhattan". For a total of about $9.00, I, now in a flash, can find just about anything I need in New York City.(Except maybe a taxi.... ;-))....) I know where "Tribeca" is, but more importantly have found where my gram and grandfather lived when first married. Both maps are super. Alice in Vermont

Sheri- It has been a long time since we last communicated. I noted your query on Union, NJ site. I have a number of Conklins and Piersons. None of the ones I had fit the marriage parameters that you gave. I do not have any Hatchs in my database. Please let me know if I can help you further. Happy holidays. Bill Magie Sheri Iamele wrote: > Looking for any leads regarding a marriage of a woman with the surname of > Hatch or Pierson to a Conklin man between 1700-1740. Perhaps on Long Island > or Elizabeht, NJ or Westfield, NJ > > Sheri > > ==== NJUNION Mailing List ==== > The best queries contain dates and locations.

Hi Tracy et al.-- I thought I hadn't copied any Wheeler info on Elihu Ogden (1751-1814), but I now see he was a brother of the Joseph Ogden (1763-1817) in my Dec. 13 e-mail. Both were younger brothers of my ancestor Matthias Ogden (1742-1818). Also, all were sons of Samuel Ogden (AFN:1XNF-WG), and these three brothers + their families are discussed on pages 126-129 of Wm. Ogden Wheeler's 1907 Ogden genealogy. I believe the gravestone (#289) of Matthias was OK when I last visited the First Presb. Cem. in Elizabeth (NJ) several years ago, but sadly several nearby stones were being used as beds at that time by homeless people and thus somewhat difficult to read. I keep trying to remember that the world belongs to the LIVING-- NOT the deceased. Because there seems to have so many Liz Ogdens born in metro NYC in the 1780s & 1790s, its hard to be very sure of much of anything. But I still think that the daughter of Joseph Ogden (+ wife Comfort Price), listed by Wheeler on page 129 as "Betsy," is a more likely candidate as wife of Tracy's ancestor William Morgan than Betsy's first cousin "Elizabeth," daughter of Elihu Ogden and Elizabeth Price. Wheeler says that Elihu's daughter Hannah (or "Joanna") died soon after her May 30, 1810, marriage to Abraham Lyon, 1784-1824, of Lyons Farms (modern Hillside, NJ). Abraham then (too hastily, I think) married Hannah's older spinster sister Elizabeth Ogden (born in the late 1770s?), and they may have remained married until his death in 1824. Thus I trust that Elizabeth's contact with William was CASUAL in nature. I note that Elizabeth's sister Susan Ogden (ca. 1779-1809), wife of Samuel Lyon, is buried (grave #284) at the First Presb. Cem. at Elizabeth, NJ. Wheeler says that her younger brother Elias married-- but died young. Now back to the more boring business of Holiday prep-- Best Holiday wishes from-- John Q. (in Chicago, where SNOW is sadly expected later today).

Looking for any leads regarding a marriage of a woman with the surname of Hatch or Pierson to a Conklin man between 1700-1740. Perhaps on Long Island or Elizabeht, NJ or Westfield, NJ Sheri

I received the following on Dec 13, 1999 from the Deputy Clerk of the Superior Court of New Jersey, Elizabeth, NJ: All Union County naturalization records from 1857 through 1906 have been transferred to to the New Jersey State Archives. All inquiries encompassing those dates should be forwarded to the addresses below: New Jersey State Archives CN-307 Trenton, NJ 08625 (609) 292-9507 OR Immigration & Nauralization Service 970 Broad Street Newark, NJ 07102

"Marjorie B. Winter" wrote: > Bill: The House of Lancaster was founded by Edmund (1245-1296), second son > of Henry III. History records that the House of Lancaster was already well > established when John of Gaunt (1340-1399) married into it. His first wife > was Blanche, daughter and heiress of the wealthy, and prestigious Henry, > Duke of Lancaster. Typical of the politics and practices of the times, John > of Gaunt, fourth son of King Edward III, married (first and second) for > wealth and position. Only his third and last marriage, to his long-time > mistress Katherine de Roet Swynford, was a marriage of mutual affection. > Marj in NC > From: BILL CADMUS [mailto:[email protected]] Thank you Marj. I should have quoted the entire paragraph from which I quoted excerpts. It was originalled witten by local historian Oliver Leonard in 1918 for the Plainfield Courier News. . " Sarah Cadmus, born 1822, who married John Gaunt, who was descended from the famous John of Gaunt, fourth son of Edward III, of England, and himself founder of the house of Lancaster, of whose life and the stories of the royal and illustreous houses which traced their descent to him many great historical books have been written." Your data advising that Edmund, second son was the founder appears more correct. Regards, William Smalley Cadmus

To Tracy, Pat, etc. This is a second response to Tracy's inquiry (below). Please bear in mind that I don't have a copy of Wm. O. Wheeler's 1907 Ogden genealogy. I didn't copy the index (wish I had), and I copied less than 100 selected pages out of this volume of over 500 pages. Many NJ libraries, the LDS Church, and most major genealogy libraries probably have this volume as well as a second important Wheeler resource on Union Co. genealogy: "Inscriptions on Tombstones and Monuments...of the First Presbyterian Church and St. Johns Church at Elizabeth, New Jersey" (1892). Very likely other subscribers to the NJUnion list either have these books or at least have easier access to them than I do. I note sadly that Wheeler's genealogy as well as the LDS internet Ancestral File and IGI sites are all loaded with Betsy, Lizzie, and Elizabeth Ogdens, and quite a few of them were born in the NJ-NYC-CT area in the 1790s. However, one Betsy Ogden, on page 129 of Wheeler, makes somewhat more sense to me than others I noticed. She was born about 1794 , is also listed a few times in the LDS-IGI, where she also appears as a relative of Willard Young, a Brigham Young descendant. Wheeler says Betsy had three unnamed children by a Mr. Cobb, but that doesn't seem to exclude an earlier or later marriage to William Morgan in 1816. This Betsy on page 129 was a daughter of Joseph Ogden (born 01 July 1763 & died 6 May 1817) and his first wife was Comfort Price. Joseph was a younger brother of Matthias Ogden (1742-1818), AFN:P241-NT. I am a descendant of both from Matthias and his wife Margaret Megie as well as Margaret's brother John Megie (AFN:GVW3-CC)-- more evidence, if any is needed, that Union Co. in olden times was a rather inbred place. The above Betsy may or may not be Tracy's "Betsey," who islisted with apparently correct info on five other Ogdens of NJ that I printed out from LDS-IGI sites using Batch #8931205. Wheeler states that that Comfort Price (who must have died before Joseph married Mehitable Smith in 1797) was the daughter of Moses Price and Comfort Bond-- probably descendants of 1664 Elizabethtown Associates Robert Bond (also my ancestor through several lines) and Benjamin Price. I know that Elizabeth's First Presb. Church Cem. is packed with Prices, including grave 113: occupied by Comfort (Bond) Price, who died 1766 at age 34. This is getting too long-winded. John Q. (in Chicago) ============================================= In a message dated 12/09/1999, Tracy wrote: > Subj: [NJUNION] MORGAN/OGDEN > Date: 12/09/1999 6:26:08 PM EST > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > > I saw this marriage record at the LDS site: > William MORGAN m. Oct. 19, 1816, Elizabeth, Union, New Jersey to > Betsey OGDEN. > > Does anyone have any information on this couple? > How can I get parent information? > I have not done any research in New Jersey, appreciate any help. > > Tracy from CT =========================================== In a message dated 12/13/1999 9:54:58 AM EST, Pam wrote: > Subj: Re: [NJUNION] MORGAN/OGDEN > Date: 12/13/1999 8:54:58 AM Central Standard Time > From: [email protected] (Pat Price Flatt) > To: [email protected] > > Hi John:--sounds fascinating! Any mention of the PRICES of > NEW JERSEY who married OGDENS? This is my line of > PRICES and they ended up in, ONTARIO,CANADA. > Best wishes...................Pat > >> From: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [NJUNION] MORGAN/OGDEN >> Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 12:15 PM EST >> >> To Tracy et al.-- I recently signed on to this list, so the following may >> be nothing new. >> >> Have you checked the fine (and very big) 1907 genealogy of William Ogden >> Wheeler: the OGDEN FAMILY IN AMERICA? This volume is mostly focused >> on the many thousands of descendants of Richard Ogden of England and >> especially his son John Ogden (AFN:9CS9-4G), 1609-1682, who was one of >> the founders of Elizabeth, NJ, in 1664-65. >> >> Partly because I am descended through at least four lines from John Ogden >> and at least another two lines from one of his sisters, I have copied large >> chunks of this book-- but I didn't copy the Index. John (in Chicago) ==============================================

Hi John:--sounds fascinating! Any mention of the PRICES of NEW JERSEY who married OGDENS? This is my line of PRICES and they ended up in, ONTARIO,CANADA. Best wishes...................Pat ---------- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [NJUNION] MORGAN/OGDEN Date: Friday, December 10, 1999 12:13 PM To Tracy et al.-- I recently signed on to this list, so the following may be nothing new. Have you checked the fine (and very big) 1907 genealogy of William Ogden Wheeler: the OGDEN FAMILY IN AMERICA? This volume is mostly focused on the many thousands of descendants of Richard Ogden of England and especially his son John Ogden (AFN:9CS9-4G), 1609-1682, who was one of the founders of Elizabeth, NJ, in 1664-65. Partly because I am descended through at least four lines from John Ogden and at least another two lines from one of his sisters, I have copied large chunks of this book-- but I didn't copy the Index. John (in Chicago) ==== NJUNION Mailing List ==== Visit the New Jersey USGenWeb pages at www.cyberenet.net/~gsteiner/njgenweb

> BILL CADMUS wrote: > > > > > > > Cornelius Cadmus was one of the sons of Andries Cadmus who had vast > > > > > land holdings with the Vermules (his brother in law) near the Blue Hills > > > Military > > > > > Post dating back to Revolutionary War days. Andries was the son of Dirck > > > > Fredericksen Cadmus who came from Bayonne where the family owned land > > on the Cadmus Heights clear across the peninsula from New York Bay to > > Newark Bay. Dirck and his brother-in-law Rev. Adriaen Vermeule (he was > > married to Christina Cadmus and between them they owned over 1,200 acres > > in the Plainfield area where they then relocated from Bayonne.. > > > > > Andries Cadmus had four sons; Abraham, Frederick, Cornelius and Richard > > and William Smalley Cadmus is descended from Fredericks family who had a > Jasper Cadmus. He farmed in Warren Township and in turn had a son, Frederick > who fought in the Civil War with the 14th NJ Volunteers, Co. I. > Upon his return from war in 1865 he married Anna Jane Smalley, the first child > of William L. Smalley Sr. and Phebe Jane Irving. In all, they had 12 children. > > > Rutgers Van Horn Cadmus was the son of Cornelius. Upon the death of his > > father and mother (Cornelius and Dinah Vermule) Rutgers continued to farm in > > the Greenbrook area of North Plainfield. He was one of eleven children born to > > the couple. > > > > Before and after Cornelius and Dinah died, their son Rutgers farmed the land > > until he passed on. All children were remembered in their father's will except > > two sons who were doctors and who by then were wealthy in their own right. > One of the daughters was Sarah Cadmus who married John Gaunt, a direct > descendant from John of Gaunt founder of the house of Lancaster in England. > > I hope this helps those who are tracing the family that left Bayonne for Union > County. > > > William Smalley Cadmus > > [email protected] >

First, you need to email [email protected], who has done extensive research on this line. Then, if there's anything I can add to that, I will try. -John

I have Mary Elizabeth Ogden, 1854(or 1855)-1919. Is she the one you are interested in? -John

> > Cornelius Cadmus was one of the sons of Andries Cadmus who had vast > land holdings with the Vermules (his brother in law) near the Blue hills > Military > Post dating back to Revolutionary War days. Andries was the son of Dirck Fredericksen Cadmus who came from Bayonne where the family owned land on the Cadmus Heights clear across the peninsula from New York Bay to Newark Bay. Dirck and his brother-in-law Rev. Adriaen Vermeule (he was married to Christina Cadmus and between them they owned over 1,200 acres in the Plainfield area where they then relocated from Bayonne.. > Andries Cadmus had four sons; Abraham, Frederick, Cornelius and Richard. Rutgers Van Horn Cadmus was the son of Cornelius. Upon the death of his father and mother (Cornelius and Dinah Vermule) Rutgers continued to farm in the Greenbrook area of North Plainfield. He was one of eleven children born to the couple. Before and after Cornelius and Dinah died, their son Rutgers farmed the land until he died. All children were remembered in their father's will except two sons who were doctors and who by then were wealthy in their own right. One of the daughters was Sarah Cadmus who married John Gaunt, a direct descendant from John of Gaunt founder of the house of Lancaster in merry old England. > Just as soon as I can locate a some of the newspaper pictures that interest > you, > I'll have the copies made and sent to you. William Smalley Cadmus [email protected]

Hi John No, I do not have that book. Do you have the book at your library? Could you see if there is a Betsey (Elizabeth) OGDEN? It seems that researching records in NJ from before 1848 is difficult. Appreciate any help. Thanks. Tracy (Thompson) Tomaselli CT: Arnold, Augur, Bartlett, Beckwith, Bennett, Boardman, Bishop, Bristol, Brooks,Bushnell, Camp, Clark, Champion, Chappell, Chittenden, Coe, Cone, Cruttenden, Denison, DeWolfe, Dowd, Field, Fowler, Griswold, Hall, Hand, Highland, Hughes, Huntley, Kimberly, Lay, Lee, Mack, Mason, Miller, Morgan, Norton, Parker, Parmelee, Plympton, Rogers, Spencer, Starr, Stevens, Sutcliffe, Thompson, Tyler, Watrous, Webb, Wilcox(son), Wickwire, Wright, RI: Alcock, Card, Clarke, Church, Hall, Knight, Lawton, Mott, Payne, Rathbone, Sands, Sheffield, Sherman, Webb, Westcott, Williams MA: Atwood, Page, Torrey, Rutherford, Wise NJ: Ogden, Morgan Nova Scotia: Dexter, McDonald, Merriman, Pritchard, Rogers, Steele, Thorpe, Wickwire Italy: Giannotta, Placido, Ricci, Tomaselli Scotland: McKay Germany: Breitweiser

To Tracy et al.-- I recently signed on to this list, so the following may be nothing new. Have you checked the fine (and very big) 1907 genealogy of William Ogden Wheeler: the OGDEN FAMILY IN AMERICA? This volume is mostly focused on the many thousands of descendants of Richard Ogden of England and especially his son John Ogden (AFN:9CS9-4G), 1609-1682, who was one of the founders of Elizabeth, NJ, in 1664-65. Partly because I am descended through at least four lines from John Ogden and at least another two lines from one of his sisters, I have copied large chunks of this book-- but I didn't copy the Index. John (in Chicago)

Hi, NJ did not start issuing marriage returns or certificates till 1848. The only hope would be church records or County Clerks office records. The county records rarely give parents names, usually just the names of the bride, groom, and the minister. Your best bet to find parents names would be death certificates. Thanks Geoffrey Cooper <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/NJrecords/njlookups.html">NJ LOOKUPS</A>