Hear, Hear!! ----- Original Message ----- From: JEFFREY OWENS <owensj@epix.net> To: <NJMONMOU-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 9:11 PM Subject: Re: [NJMONMOU] Declaration Signers Tsalagi152@aol.com wrote: >... It is interesting, as a Native American, ......July 4 has no > value to me nor do the "signers"; its just another day to have fun, get > together with friends/family. Catherine I feel sorry and dismayed by statements like these from you and others with similar attitudes. The past is the past. Investigating the facts of 'native Americans' would reveal that most of the tribes carried on territorial wars and took slaves from other tribes. War and slavery have no singularity with any race or nation. Black races in Africa also had wars and slaves. Many white races were also subjected to rape, pillaging, slavery, barbarism, etc. Raids on the British Isles before they were called that were full of the above atrocities. And there was serfdom, which was for all practical purposes slavery. As a genealogist you must be aware of the arithmetic expansion of the number of ancestors each of us comes from when you go back only 300 or 400 years. Most every person on earth could probably prove ancestry to someone enslaved at some point in time if there were records to do so. What is important is that all the inequities, atrocities, slaughter and slavery which have taken place at various times in every part of this globe do not justify hatred for another race, nor indifference to the benefits and freedoms we enjoy in the United States. Independence Day is not a celebration of what's wrong with society, but is for the hope of freedom, liberty and happiness of the future. If you don't believe this is the land of freedom and opportunity why do you think so many others wish to come to the U.S.? Maybe one of those families who can't come to this country because of immigration quotas would be glad to change places with you. Jeffrey S. Owens Sorry for this off topic message on the list, but no other subject is more important to me. I felt a public response necessary. ==== NJMONMOU Mailing List ==== To contact the listowner: pmount@fnr.umass.edu

Tsalagi152@aol.com wrote: >... It is interesting, as a Native American, to > read this kind of propaganda and distortion of history....the freedom > referred to was for a select few, at the same thime this was being"framed" by > your " founding fathers", my ancestors were fighting off attitudes that they > were "savages" and not even human beings.,fighting against their enslavement > (yes, First Americans were sold as slaves prior to persons of African > heritage), and fighting to keep their homes, farms and land. July 4 has no > value to me nor do the "signers"; its just anoter day to have fun, get > together with friends/family. Catherine I feel sorry and dismayed by statements like these from you and others with similar attitudes. The past is the past. Investigating the facts of 'native Americans' would reveal that most of the tribes carried on territorial wars and took slaves from other tribes. War and slavery have no singularity with any race or nation. Black races in Africa also had wars and slaves. Many white races were also subjected to rape, pillaging, slavery, barbarism, etc. Raids on the British Isles before they were called that were full of the above atrocities. And there was serfdom, which was for all practical purposes slavery. As a genealogist you must be aware of the arithmetic expansion of the number of ancestors each of us comes from when you go back only 300 or 400 years. Most every person on earth could probably prove ancestry to someone enslaved at some point in time if there were records to do so. What is important is that all the inequities, atrocities, slaughter and slavery which have taken place at various times in every part of this globe do not justify hatred for another race, nor indifference to the benefits and freedoms we enjoy in the United States. Independence Day is not a celebration of what's wrong with society, but is for the hope of freedom, liberty and happiness of the future. If you don't believe this is the land of freedom and opportunity why do you think so many others wish to come to the U.S.? Maybe one of those families who can't come to this country because of immigration quotas would be glad to change places with you. Jeffrey S. Owens Sorry for this off topic message on the list, but no other subject is more important to me. I felt a public response necessary.

Nice message, Wayne You do confuse me on the brother William being killed at sea. I thought that he died 11 Sep 1811 in Allentown, Monmouth Co., NJ?? Bill -----Original Message----- From: WayneLII@aol.com [mailto:WayneLII@aol.com] Sent: Friday, July 07, 2000 12:52 AM To: NJMONMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NJMONMOU] Declaration Signers <SNIP> Jeff and others on Thomas McKean, I have done a lot of research on Thomas McKean and a lot of what Jeff says is true, but he suffered a lot during the War and after the War. He lost his brother, William, who was killed at sea during the Revolution and he also lost his brother, Dr. Robert McKean, who died shortly after his marriage to the daughter of the Governor of New Jersey. <SNIP>

Does any one know what ever happened to Sam (Samuel) Huntington. Leona

In a message dated 7/6/00 9:51:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Wayne L II writes: << In a message dated 7/6/00 8:12:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, owensj@epix.net writes: << There are some typos in the names presented. McKeam should be M'Kean as he signed it, or McKean as sometimes seen in various references. Dillery should be Ellery. Norris should be Morris This piece has been widely circulated on the internet, not just at this Independence Day, but for some time, and portions, or similar pieces found on various web sites. While the tone is generally honorable and honest it has some exaggerations and errors. I wouldn't call it propaganda for the reason that it is honorable in presenting the spirit of our democracy's beginning, but from a genealogical viewpoint it is a poor representation of facts. Mr. M'Kean, for instance, was, after the Rev. War, Chief Justice of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court and later the Governor of PA. His life may have had some hardships during the war, but he did not die in poverty. Carter Braxton, while he lost most of his fortune, it was a result of poor business decisions after the war, not his support of the war which caused his problems. These claims for the patriots who risked everything have somehow been distorted for reasons unknown by author(s) anonymous. I have seen the thorough debunking of this piece previously, but did not retain it. My two examples cited are from a few quick checks of autobiographical info found on various web sites. And while some of the hardships indicated were suffered by many of the signers, and many other patriots, they were later compensated for some of their loses by government grants and payments. While the piece is dramatic in content, my wish is that it should fade into oblivion, and be replaced with a true account which I'm sure is just as dramatic, but would be as completely factual as records might allow. Jeff Owens >> Jeff and others on Thomas McKean, I have done a lot of research on Thomas McKean and a lot of what Jeff says is true, but he suffered a lot during the War and after the War. He lost his brother, William, who was killed at sea during the Revolution and he also lost his brother, Dr. Robert McKean, who died shortly after his marriage to the daughter of the Governor of New Jersey. Thomas McKean's father was a tavern keeper. I believe his grandmother had a great influence on him. She was a widow who raised her children by herself as her husband died on the way over from Ireland about 1725. Thomas lost several of his children and after the death of Dorothy (I believe) he writes about his lost of his family. He speaks of not have close kin and goes on to say that some of them have been dead close to 50 years. It has been years since I have research this family but they have ties back to the MacIains of Glencoe, Scotland and the Massacre of Glencoe in 1692. A student back in 1915 did his Thesis on The life of Thomas McKean and did a good job. Thomas McKean had quite a busy political life. And I might say a stormy one at that. No, he never died poor, but he was hounded although the War. Wayne McKean, Seattle, WA

"my wish is that it should fade into oblivion, and be replaced with a true account which I'm sure is just as dramatic, but would be as completely factual as records might allow." I couldn't agree with you more! It is interesting, as a Native American, to read this kind of propaganda and distortion of history....the freedom referred to was for a select few, at the same thime this was being"framed" by your " founding fathers", my ancestors were fighting off attitudes that they were "savages" and not even human beings.,fighting against their enslavement (yes, First Americans were sold as slaves prior to persons of African heritage), and fighting to keep their homes, farms and land. July 4 has no value to me nor do the "signers"; its just anoter day to have fun, get together with friends/family. Catherine

There was a Street family living in Wall Township until at least 1959. I went to school with their daughter Wendy. Her father was a DR, They lived in the Allenwood section. Joyce at the Jersey Shore

Can't remember if I have posted this before, but thought I would again. You can get a free subscription and there is a local trivia section as well that might be of help. For a free subscription to the Atlantic Highlands Herald, please complete the form found at: <A HREF="http://www.ahherald.com/subscribe.htm ">http://www.ahh erald.com/subscribe.htm</A> Donna Patterson IttyBkShp@aol.com <A HREF="http://patterson.family.homepage.com/index.html">http://patterson.fam ily.homepage.com</A> <A HREF="http://patterson.family.homepage.com/index.html"> </A>

There are some typos in the names presented. McKeam should be M'Kean as he signed it, or McKean as sometimes seen in various references. Dillery should be Ellery. Norris should be Morris This piece has been widely circulated on the internet, not just at this Independence Day, but for some time, and portions, or similar pieces found on various web sites. While the tone is generally honorable and honest it has some exaggerations and errors. I wouldn't call it propaganda for the reason that it is honorable in presenting the spirit of our democracy's beginning, but from a genealogical viewpoint it is a poor representation of facts. Mr. M'Kean, for instance, was, after the Rev. War, Chief Justice of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court and later the Governor of PA. His life may have had some hardships during the war, but he did not die in poverty. Carter Braxton, while he lost most of his fortune, it was a result of poor business decisions after the war, not his support of the war which caused his problems. These claims for the patriots who risked everything have somehow been distorted for reasons unknown by author(s) anonymous. I have seen the thorough debunking of this piece previously, but did not retain it. My two examples cited are from a few quick checks of autobiographical info found on various web sites. And while some of the hardships indicated were suffered by many of the signers, and many other patriots, they were later compensated for some of their loses by government grants and payments. While the piece is dramatic in content, my wish is that it should fade into oblivion, and be replaced with a true account which I'm sure is just as dramatic, but would be as completely factual as records might allow. Jeff Owens fanfayr@aol.com wrote: > > Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the > Declaration of Independence? > > Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured > before they died. > > Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. > > Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two > sons captured. > > Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the > Revolutionary War. > > They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their > sacred honor. > What kind of men were they? > > Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were > farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But > they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the > penalty would be death if they were captured. > > Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships > swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties > to pay his debts, and died in rags. > > Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move > his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and > his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and > poverty was his reward. > > Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, > Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of > Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General Cornwallis had > taken > over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George > Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died > bankrupt. > > Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his > wife, and she died within a few months. > > John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their > children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to > waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home > to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died > from exhaustion and a broken heart. > Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. > > Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These > men were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men > of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. > Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support > of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine > providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, > and our sacred honor." They gave you and me a free and independent > America. > The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the > Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British > subjects at that time and we fought our own government! > > Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. > So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently > thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. > Remember: freedom is never free! > > ==== NJMONMOU Mailing List ==== > > http://nj5.injersey.com/~kjshelly/mcgs.html > Monmouth County Genealogy Society

We have been told our Morris clan from what is now Pt Pleasant Beach and Brick were related to one of the signers of the Declaration. This has been a family rumor for years. No luck in researching it though. Marie Wright

Looking for any information on Street family in Monmouth Co.. Have a Elizabeth Street, b. 1812, married William Pullen, Mon.Co., Elizabeth died in 1853 and Wm remarried Catherine Lawyer, d.o. Joseph Lawyer, Mon. Co. Thanks Bev

Hi listmembers! Would anyone by chance have the digest that covers thru May 5, 2000? I looked at rootsweb for the NJMONMOU-L message archives, but it only has May 25-May 30th there. I am looking for information about a Frank Lambertson. Any help I could get would be greatly appreciated! Thank you, Patti Heyer nikki@iag.net

Hi Margaret; I answered someone on this but forgot to hit reply all. Have found nothing new on anything. Ed Merryman Holmfarm@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/5/00 4:24:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > genedigger@adelphia.net writes: > > > Have you ever wondered if this was all true? > > Oh yes! I've gotten this from any number of sources, and maybe we should > apply good genealogical principles to it -- names, please, dates and sources. > > Margaret Rader > > ==== NJMONMOU Mailing List ==== > Support the RootsWeb Gen. Data Cooperative with your membership. > RootsWeb Gen.Data Coop.Box 6798 Frazier Park, CA 93222 > http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

I hope you all enjoyed the holiday and paused a moment to remember those who came before us. Last year I too posted the "What ever happened to.....". This year I read some history behind the post that is making it's way through all the mailing lists. Perhaps it contains some interesting lessons for all of us who use the internet for research. http://home.nycap.rr.com/elbrecht/signers/signerindex.html Pat

Have you ever wondered if this was all true? I'm sure the intentions were good, but a little research is in order. Bill -----Original Message----- From: fanfayr@aol.com [mailto:fanfayr@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:07 PM To: NJMONMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [NJMONMOU] (no subject) Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? <snip>

http://www.colonialhall.com/biodoi.asp Research to your hearts delight! You are absolutely right to ponder. ----- Original Message ----- From: William A. Collins <genedigger@adelphia.net> To: <NJMONMOU-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 7:18 PM Subject: [NJMONMOU] RE: The Signers Have you ever wondered if this was all true? I'm sure the intentions were good, but a little research is in order. Bill -----Original Message----- From: fanfayr@aol.com [mailto:fanfayr@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2000 6:07 PM To: NJMONMOU-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [NJMONMOU] (no subject) Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? <snip> ==== NJMONMOU Mailing List ==== Support the RootsWeb Gen. Data Cooperative with your membership. RootsWeb Gen.Data Coop.Box 6798 Frazier Park, CA 93222 http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

Thank You Jim and Hello everyone: Shortly after I posted this little trinket of information about our freedom and how we need to appreciate it. I also wondered how much of it was true but I respected the concept. I was sent this web sight to help clarify just some of those questions. http://home.nycap.rr.com/elbrecht/signers/signerindex.html This then lead me to more information on the signers. I was looking for info on Abraham Clark which is linked somehow to my Great Grandmother Irene Clark. <A HREF="http://www.colonialhall.com/index.asp">Colonial Hall: Biographies of America's Founding Fathers</A> Happy Hunting to all Debbie Marshall Looking into the ancestry of Clark, Gibney, Halbert, Heyer, Horton, Kidd, Marshall & Van Nest.

In a message dated 7/5/00 4:24:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, genedigger@adelphia.net writes: > Have you ever wondered if this was all true? Oh yes! I've gotten this from any number of sources, and maybe we should apply good genealogical principles to it -- names, please, dates and sources. Margaret Rader

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence? Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died. Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured. Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War. They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they? Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured. Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags. Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward. Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton. At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson Jr, noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt. Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months. John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart. Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These men were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor." They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British. We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government! Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. Remember: freedom is never free!

In trying to separate family members who witnessed marriages recorded in the Shrewsbury meeting records, I began to wonder: (1)Was there a minimum age for a Quaker to sign as a witness to a marriage during the 18th and 19th centuries? (2) If a person's name is shown as a witness, should I assume that person signed or gave a mark for him/herself? (3) Did children attend marriages? Thanks, Margaret Bailey auntiem@nac.net Sparta, NJ