Dear Cristie, I'll just start on a few things that jump out at m In e then I'll read it over again and answer all of it. Thank you so for doing so much investigation. First of all, Truman was never in WI that I know of. He left Pontiac and went to what was then, MO. territory, but was in the bottom east corner of Iowa. He had two wives before Carrie Pickel. They both died. My grandmother was the Ina B. Curtis of the three children who survived out of seven of Carrie's children. Luna, her sister was married to (can't think of his first name this time of night) Church from Pontiac. The reason you didn't find Kensie is that he died at age 21 and is buried in the Curtis Cemetery in MI as were Truman and Carrie. I have pictures of Carrie's and Truman's tombstones, I'm pretty sure, and of Kensie. I also went to the town in Iowa and found out a lot of material about Truman and what he was doing there. He went back to Pontiac and or Mt Vernon and married Carrie and took her back to Iowa where he lived. They had two, maybe three babies that didn't survive. I have pictures of two of the graves of about eight month old babies. I did have almost all of the information you found, but I always like to verify . I'm not 100% sure that Jonthan and Hannah were really her parents. I'm sure she thought they were and she told my grandmother that, but she moved to MI when she was three. I don't know with whom nor who raised her and what she was doing at 17 living in the home with, seemingly, non related people. The Mann comes in when he married an Elizabeth Pickel who was on that 1850 census...same one as Carrie. He was married with at least two children before he married Elizabeth. Someone told us that Elizabeth Pickel married John Mann. Well, wonder of wonders... I remembered the witnesses in Caroline's and Truman's marriage. I had a copy of that and always wondered who they were...sure enough...that's who they were. John Mann was born in NJ and the census said that at least one of his parents were from Germany. We don't know if Elizabeth Pickel was a sister or cousin or what, of Carrie. It would have to be close if Eliz. was a witness in her wedding and especially since she was eight years older than Carrie. I'd like to find out when John Mann and Elizabeth Pickel were married. There are several children mentioned and Catherine was married to John Mann in one census and the next one was married to Elizabeth. Oh...Elizabeth Pickel was living with the Calkins family when she was twenty-five before she got married. There is an older woman living with John and Carrie and she is his sister. I'd do this in more detail, but I just got home from a family Thanksgiving dinner and stopped by the computer and was delighted to get your email. I've ordered Jonathan Pickel's will which I was told included a Mann and Calkins, so if this is so, it means that Elizabeth was connected with Jonathan and Hannah and since I believe that they are connected in some way (cousins or sisters, perhaps) that show us something. I've been thinking that Carrie might be the daughter of one of Jonathan's brothers. One of Jonathan's brothers killed the other in a fight, but got off because of self defense. The one that survived was named George, I think. There's another Truman who was in WI, though. Our Truman Curtis was busy in Iowa/MO I have a lot about him there. He owned a mill (flour) and was a merchant who traveled around MO. I know more than this, but it might not be of any interest to anybody but me. He wasn't, to the very best of my knowledge in WI. Yes, Truman's family was from Mcomb, but dates back to Mass. and CT and England. At this point, I know quite a bit about Jonathan and Hannah Pickel, and until I can prove that they were Carrie's parents, I'm not going to work on those lines. I don't know at what age Elizabeth Pickel got to MI. When Jonathan's will comes, I hope to learn more. Thanks so much for all your hard work. I do appreciate it. Helen Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Helen: What had me curious about your query was the Mann family, but I don't have John in my database and as far as I know, so far, my Mann's are out of New York, but not to say they couldn't have come there from New Jersey, but more than likely they may be part of the Manns of Massachusetts.? If they are from Germany, that would be surprising, but I haven't checked Early Germans in New Jersey lately, perhaps the Mann's are one of the named familiies, which might provide the clue as to their origin. Anyway, I did do a bit of census researching which I'm sure you have already done.? The 1840 census would be the first census that needs to be checked to see if there is a female under 10 in the family of Jonathan, which would probably be Carrie.? Since we know from the 1850 and the 1860 census that Jonathan was born about 1799-1800,he would be a tick mark in his own father's family. I did find Jonathan (age 50) and Hannah (age 49) in the 1850 Census in Alexandria twp., Hunterdon, NJ with 5 kids: Samuel (20), twins George and Rachel (age 15), Deborah (age 8) and Sarah (age 3)?and another individual who was probably a farm hand. I found the family again in the 1860 census, same place, Jonathan (age 61), Hannah (age 59), George (age 24), Deborah (age 17) and June (age 12) I did find Caroline Pickle in the 1850 census in Bruce, Macomb, MI, age 17.? Yes, she was in someone's home, but whether it was a boarding house or not, there weren't enough people in the house to really consider it as such in my opinion.? The family may just have had enough money to be able to afford people to work for them and Caroline could have been just one of those.? Perhaps the property was reverted to a boarding house after the 1900s when lots of people were moving into Pontiac for work. I couldn't find her in the 1860 census, but I did find Truman Curtis living in Dodge, Rubicon, Wisconsin.? He was not with either wife then. In the 1870 census for 1st Ward, Pontiac, Oakland, MI, I found Truman (age 48, b. NY) with Carrie, age 37 b. NJ) with Ira B (female which should probably be Ina B. age 8 BORN IOWA, Kensie (age 6 BORN MISSOURI) and Luna (age 2 BORN MI) In the 1880 census, again 1st Ward, Pontiac living on Orchard Lake Avenue Truman (age 58 b. NY), Carrie (age 47, b. NJ), Ina B. (age 17, born Iowa), Kensie P., (age 15 b. MO) and Luna G., (age 11, b. MI) I could not find Kensie or Kenzie in the 1900 census, nor could I find Caroline/Carrie or any other spelling in the 1900. I found in the 1910 census living with Frank Church and his wife Luna,?Carrie.? She?is listed as being a mother-in-law.? Luna and Frank had two kids Bernice and Florence G.? They were living on E. Howard Street. Going to Find A Grave, someone has posted photos for both the tombstones for Carrie and Truman in the Curtis Cemetery in Shelby, Macomb, MI.? It says Truman is the son of Jeremiah and Mercy Curtis, b. 2-12-1822 in NY and d. 6-10-1883 and it says Mary Jane Wales was his first wife with Caroline (Carrie) Pickel his second and gives her birth as 4-2-1833 and d. 11-16-1910 in Macomb Co., MI. What really has me curious is the fact that in the 1910 census it says she is a widow with 6 children and 2 living.? You would have thought that at some point in the census records six kids would have shown up.? For Truman to have been married to Mary Jane Wales, it would have been a really, really short marriage with no kids.? Or have you found kids for that marriage?? Which one was?still living in 1910 besides Luna? Have you found all the birth records for six kids?? From the looks of the birth locations, Truman and carrie must have moved around between 1860 and 1870 for them to have 3 kids in 3 states, always to be reported as living in MI.? As we don't know where in Missouri or Iowa they were living, it is going to be hard, unless you have information that says where, it is going to be hard to find these kids. You said you found their marriage in 1859.? So why am I finding Truman in Wisconsin by himself?? Have you found the marriage record for the first wife?? Do you know who might have posted the information on Find A Grave?? You can always go to Find A Grave and click on the submitter's name and send a query to them -- but you must register first if you aren't already.? No cost.? It's free.? Then you can submit records of your own too. Now, considering Carrie?lived for almost 30 years in Pontiac, why were they married in Macomb County?? Was that because Caroline was in Macomb at age 17?? Why were they buried there as well?? Is that where Truman's family is from? I'm presuming you checked the death records and that is where you found the name of her parents.? The query to the list hinted that you found a reference to it in the census, which is never the case. Have you checked the Hunterdon county, NJ Marriage records to find the date of the marriage for Jonathan and Hannah?? Are there any birth records for their children? I know there is a Mann family in Warren/Sussex county.? Whether any of those?folks?married folks in Hunterdon county I'm not sure and whether any of them tie into the Pickle/Pickel family would have to be researched.? For the few Mann's that I have tried to follow, they all seemed to have left NJ in the 1830s and headed west to Michigan, but not having followed all of them, a few could seek about and head to Hunterdon instead. Bottom line, you've got your work cut out for you in trying to get six kids for Truman and Carrie.? Those born in MIchigan after 1867 will be in the vitals, but those born other places will take research to see when vitals were started.? Find vitals in New Jersey is also going to be hit and miss. Good luck in your research. Christie Trapp Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:08:21 EST From: [email protected] Subject: [NJHUNTER] Carrie Pickel We're still in pursuit of Caroline PICKEL and all spellings of that surname. She showed up on the 1850 in Macomb County at seventeen living with a group in a home, of seemingly unconnected people, except for the address. It may be a sort of boarding house although it wasn't listed as such. I do know others who lived in the same situation without being list as a boarding house in that county. Carrie/Caroline was born in 1833 in NJ. She said her parents were Jonathan and Hannah Pickel, and I'm sure she believed that, although there is no evidence of that. She moved from NJ at the age of three and lived there for the rest of her life. I don't know whom she lived, nor how she got there. She married Truman Curtis, a widower in Mt Vernon, MI, Jan 11, 1859 and had children and is buried there. We need to know when Catherine (1st wife) died to know whose children belong to which wife. We found another Pickel in the same county--thanks to one of the astute readers of this site--that there is an Elizabeth b. NJ, who later, married John Mann, b in NJ and his parents were born in Germany. Fortunately, I have a copy of the marriage of Carrie and Truman Curtis, and also found that Elizabeth and John Mann were witnesses of their marriage. We're getting closer. There, undoubtedly is a connection between Elizabeth and Carrie, but I don't know if they are sisters or cousins or what the relationship is. We need help that might lead to finding Carrie's parents. She was my great grandmother. She lived and died without really knowing who her parents were, and I don't want to! I have sent for the will of Jonathan Pickel and am anxiously waiting it. Thanks, Mike, for giving me the instructions. HEChan @AOL.Com Helen Chandler Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002)