Helen: What had me curious about your query was the Mann family, but I don't have John in my database and as far as I know, so far, my Mann's are out of New York, but not to say they couldn't have come there from New Jersey, but more than likely they may be part of the Manns of Massachusetts.? If they are from Germany, that would be surprising, but I haven't checked Early Germans in New Jersey lately, perhaps the Mann's are one of the named familiies, which might provide the clue as to their origin. Anyway, I did do a bit of census researching which I'm sure you have already done.? The 1840 census would be the first census that needs to be checked to see if there is a female under 10 in the family of Jonathan, which would probably be Carrie.? Since we know from the 1850 and the 1860 census that Jonathan was born about 1799-1800,he would be a tick mark in his own father's family. I did find Jonathan (age 50) and Hannah (age 49) in the 1850 Census in Alexandria twp., Hunterdon, NJ with 5 kids: Samuel (20), twins George and Rachel (age 15), Deborah (age 8) and Sarah (age 3)?and another individual who was probably a farm hand. I found the family again in the 1860 census, same place, Jonathan (age 61), Hannah (age 59), George (age 24), Deborah (age 17) and June (age 12) I did find Caroline Pickle in the 1850 census in Bruce, Macomb, MI, age 17.? Yes, she was in someone's home, but whether it was a boarding house or not, there weren't enough people in the house to really consider it as such in my opinion.? The family may just have had enough money to be able to afford people to work for them and Caroline could have been just one of those.? Perhaps the property was reverted to a boarding house after the 1900s when lots of people were moving into Pontiac for work. I couldn't find her in the 1860 census, but I did find Truman Curtis living in Dodge, Rubicon, Wisconsin.? He was not with either wife then. In the 1870 census for 1st Ward, Pontiac, Oakland, MI, I found Truman (age 48, b. NY) with Carrie, age 37 b. NJ) with Ira B (female which should probably be Ina B. age 8 BORN IOWA, Kensie (age 6 BORN MISSOURI) and Luna (age 2 BORN MI) In the 1880 census, again 1st Ward, Pontiac living on Orchard Lake Avenue Truman (age 58 b. NY), Carrie (age 47, b. NJ), Ina B. (age 17, born Iowa), Kensie P., (age 15 b. MO) and Luna G., (age 11, b. MI) I could not find Kensie or Kenzie in the 1900 census, nor could I find Caroline/Carrie or any other spelling in the 1900. I found in the 1910 census living with Frank Church and his wife Luna,?Carrie.? She?is listed as being a mother-in-law.? Luna and Frank had two kids Bernice and Florence G.? They were living on E. Howard Street. Going to Find A Grave, someone has posted photos for both the tombstones for Carrie and Truman in the Curtis Cemetery in Shelby, Macomb, MI.? It says Truman is the son of Jeremiah and Mercy Curtis, b. 2-12-1822 in NY and d. 6-10-1883 and it says Mary Jane Wales was his first wife with Caroline (Carrie) Pickel his second and gives her birth as 4-2-1833 and d. 11-16-1910 in Macomb Co., MI. What really has me curious is the fact that in the 1910 census it says she is a widow with 6 children and 2 living.? You would have thought that at some point in the census records six kids would have shown up.? For Truman to have been married to Mary Jane Wales, it would have been a really, really short marriage with no kids.? Or have you found kids for that marriage?? Which one was?still living in 1910 besides Luna? Have you found all the birth records for six kids?? From the looks of the birth locations, Truman and carrie must have moved around between 1860 and 1870 for them to have 3 kids in 3 states, always to be reported as living in MI.? As we don't know where in Missouri or Iowa they were living, it is going to be hard, unless you have information that says where, it is going to be hard to find these kids. You said you found their marriage in 1859.? So why am I finding Truman in Wisconsin by himself?? Have you found the marriage record for the first wife?? Do you know who might have posted the information on Find A Grave?? You can always go to Find A Grave and click on the submitter's name and send a query to them -- but you must register first if you aren't already.? No cost.? It's free.? Then you can submit records of your own too. Now, considering Carrie?lived for almost 30 years in Pontiac, why were they married in Macomb County?? Was that because Caroline was in Macomb at age 17?? Why were they buried there as well?? Is that where Truman's family is from? I'm presuming you checked the death records and that is where you found the name of her parents.? The query to the list hinted that you found a reference to it in the census, which is never the case. Have you checked the Hunterdon county, NJ Marriage records to find the date of the marriage for Jonathan and Hannah?? Are there any birth records for their children? I know there is a Mann family in Warren/Sussex county.? Whether any of those?folks?married folks in Hunterdon county I'm not sure and whether any of them tie into the Pickle/Pickel family would have to be researched.? For the few Mann's that I have tried to follow, they all seemed to have left NJ in the 1830s and headed west to Michigan, but not having followed all of them, a few could seek about and head to Hunterdon instead. Bottom line, you've got your work cut out for you in trying to get six kids for Truman and Carrie.? Those born in MIchigan after 1867 will be in the vitals, but those born other places will take research to see when vitals were started.? Find vitals in New Jersey is also going to be hit and miss. Good luck in your research. Christie Trapp Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:08:21 EST From: [email protected] Subject: [NJHUNTER] Carrie Pickel We're still in pursuit of Caroline PICKEL and all spellings of that surname. She showed up on the 1850 in Macomb County at seventeen living with a group in a home, of seemingly unconnected people, except for the address. It may be a sort of boarding house although it wasn't listed as such. I do know others who lived in the same situation without being list as a boarding house in that county. Carrie/Caroline was born in 1833 in NJ. She said her parents were Jonathan and Hannah Pickel, and I'm sure she believed that, although there is no evidence of that. She moved from NJ at the age of three and lived there for the rest of her life. I don't know whom she lived, nor how she got there. She married Truman Curtis, a widower in Mt Vernon, MI, Jan 11, 1859 and had children and is buried there. We need to know when Catherine (1st wife) died to know whose children belong to which wife. We found another Pickel in the same county--thanks to one of the astute readers of this site--that there is an Elizabeth b. NJ, who later, married John Mann, b in NJ and his parents were born in Germany. Fortunately, I have a copy of the marriage of Carrie and Truman Curtis, and also found that Elizabeth and John Mann were witnesses of their marriage. We're getting closer. There, undoubtedly is a connection between Elizabeth and Carrie, but I don't know if they are sisters or cousins or what the relationship is. We need help that might lead to finding Carrie's parents. She was my great grandmother. She lived and died without really knowing who her parents were, and I don't want to! I have sent for the will of Jonathan Pickel and am anxiously waiting it. Thanks, Mike, for giving me the instructions. HEChan @AOL.Com Helen Chandler