Kay, if you had put that comment on facebook, I would definitely have "liked" it. Marfy *Marfy Goodspeed **marfyg@gmail.com** Goodspeed Histories http://goodspeedhistories.com/ * On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 2:41 PM, <kaysfo@aol.com> wrote: > > It wouldn't in a sense bother me either. The nasty surprise is in > thinking that one has everything nailed down with a well -documented paper > trail, and then finding out that a whole line of your family isn't your > family. And where do you start to redo a whole line. Can you tell how far > back the "non-parental episode" happened. > > If ggg-grandma had a child that did not belong to gg-grandpa, how could > you tell if it was the butcher, the baker, or the candlestick maker? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: BMacKie <lu2silly@yahoo.com> > To: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 1:24 pm > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA > > > And I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some > eally nasty surprises when they find out that there has either been an > nknown illegitmate birth or an adoption that occured generations ago. > We call those non-parental episodes. There will also be fifth cousins from > nother race who were sired by our illustrious slave owning males. That > doesn't > other me, I welcome that knowledge, but it will some people. One of the > articipants in a DNA project I administer wrote me to tell me he'd found > out > hat only one of his four brothers was actually sired by the man who raised > hem. > > _______________________________ > From: "kaysfo@aol.com" <kaysfo@aol.com> > o: njhunter@rootsweb.com > ent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:05 AM > ubject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA > > Yes, I found a female third cousin online descended from one of my New > England > ines. We became regular correspondents over a ten year period (and > ister/cousins/ best friends). She had a male first cousin who still bore > the > ame. He consented to be tested. What the DNA showed upended a lot of > previous > esearch on that line. We had tried to prove our contentions with a paper > rail, which was pretty much ignored, but when combined with the DNA, it > opened > yes and provided proof which could not be ignored. > I am certain that DNA testing is going to really, in many cases, muddy the > aters considerably for the next fifty years or so. People are really > going to > ave to hit the research trail in earnest and seek out those primary > sources, > ecause a lot of the "facts" in the kinds of books we have been talking > about > re going to be proven erroneous. Many people will have to start from > scratch so > o speak. > > nd I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some really > nasty > urprises when they find out that there has either been an unknown > illegitmate > irth or an adoption that occured generations ago. > Kay > > ----Original Message----- > rom: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> > o: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> > ent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am > ubject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA > > f you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to > u. > rothers > cles > eat Uncles > hat if the great uncles are no longer living? > n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line > rn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward > sing census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and > ituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only > ughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line > forward > r 5 > nerations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, > shington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a > match > th > ree other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor > upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. > t isn't easy research but it can be done. > > a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > san.avery@juno.com writes: > arilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be > sted - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a > n Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne > me, not the Stout name. > usan Avery > n Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> > ites: > n 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, > e > s 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant > from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another > tout > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to > prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > he quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > he quotes in the subject and the body of the message > isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > tp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ----------------------------- > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > HUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in > e subject > d the body of the message > isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ----------------------------- > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com > ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > e message > > > ----Original Message----- > rom: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> > o: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> > ent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am > ubject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA > > f you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to > u. > rothers > cles > eat Uncles > hat if the great uncles are no longer living? > n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line > rn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward > sing census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and > ituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only > ughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line > forward > r 5 > nerations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, > shington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a > match > th > ree other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor > upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. > t isn't easy research but it can be done. > > a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > san.avery@juno.com writes: > arilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be > sted - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a > n Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne > me, not the Stout name. > usan Avery > n Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> > ites: > n 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, > e > s 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant > from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another > tout > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to > prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > he quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > he quotes in the subject and the body of the message > isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > tp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ----------------------------- > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > HUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in > e subject > d the body of the message > isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ----------------------------- > unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com > ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > e message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------ > o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com > ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > he message > isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------ > o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com > ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > he message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Well said!  I agree.   Do you take females (I'm assuming you're a FTDNA administrator)?  My maiden name is Ellis.  My paper trail of my Ellis line is well documented.  When I tested with family finder, I asked to join the Ellis project.  I am not allowed in, because I am female.  :-)  I complained to the management, but it fell on deaf ears apparently.   ________________________________ From: Marleen Van Horne <msvnhrn@jps.net> To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA In my projects, I take people with both the yDNA and the surname. If a man's yDNA matches an identified family with that projects surname, I accept him into the project, not matter what his surname is. By the same token, if a man has the surname, and does not biologically match anyone else in the project, I consider this a new family line for the project, because his male descendants will have his surname and his yDNA. In the case of stranger yDNA being transferred to a family with another surname, the genealogist has to come to grips with the fact that this transfer can have taken place for socially good reasons, or for absolutely unacceptable social reasons. A yDNA transfer is often the result of an undocumented adoption.  If a child was an orphan with no assets, not much attention was paid to who raises them, as long as they did not become a financial burden on the community.  These adoptions seldom got documented.  It also depended on how socially developed was the area where the adoption happened. Parents living on the frontier often adopted the children of their married daughter who died in childbirth.  Survivors adopted the children of people who died in epidemics.  These children were often raised with the surnames of the adoptive parents. Our family histories are not pure as the driven snow, as far as socially acceptable goes.  Women became pregnant and married a man other than the father of the child.  How they became pregnant is another matter.  It could have been incest, rape or hanky panky. The point to all this is that since the beginning to time the conception of children has resulted from as many circumstances as are imaginable, and that will continue to happen until the end of species. All children are entitled to know their biological histories as well as their social family histories.  In my opinion, they are the richer for knowing both. Marleen Van Horne Marleen Van Horne Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

It wouldn't in a sense bother me either. The nasty surprise is in thinking that one has everything nailed down with a well -documented paper trail, and then finding out that a whole line of your family isn't your family. And where do you start to redo a whole line. Can you tell how far back the "non-parental episode" happened. If ggg-grandma had a child that did not belong to gg-grandpa, how could you tell if it was the butcher, the baker, or the candlestick maker? -----Original Message----- From: BMacKie <lu2silly@yahoo.com> To: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 1:24 pm Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA And I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some eally nasty surprises when they find out that there has either been an nknown illegitmate birth or an adoption that occured generations ago. We call those non-parental episodes. There will also be fifth cousins from nother race who were sired by our illustrious slave owning males. That doesn't other me, I welcome that knowledge, but it will some people. One of the articipants in a DNA project I administer wrote me to tell me he'd found out hat only one of his four brothers was actually sired by the man who raised hem. _______________________________ From: "kaysfo@aol.com" <kaysfo@aol.com> o: njhunter@rootsweb.com ent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:05 AM ubject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA Yes, I found a female third cousin online descended from one of my New England ines. We became regular correspondents over a ten year period (and ister/cousins/ best friends). She had a male first cousin who still bore the ame. He consented to be tested. What the DNA showed upended a lot of previous esearch on that line. We had tried to prove our contentions with a paper rail, which was pretty much ignored, but when combined with the DNA, it opened yes and provided proof which could not be ignored. I am certain that DNA testing is going to really, in many cases, muddy the aters considerably for the next fifty years or so. People are really going to ave to hit the research trail in earnest and seek out those primary sources, ecause a lot of the "facts" in the kinds of books we have been talking about re going to be proven erroneous. Many people will have to start from scratch so o speak. nd I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some really nasty urprises when they find out that there has either been an unknown illegitmate irth or an adoption that occured generations ago. Kay ----Original Message----- rom: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> o: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> ent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am ubject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA f you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to u. rothers cles eat Uncles hat if the great uncles are no longer living? n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line rn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward sing census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and ituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only ughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward r 5 nerations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, shington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match th ree other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. t isn't easy research but it can be done. a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, san.avery@juno.com writes: arilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be sted - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a n Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne me, not the Stout name. usan Avery n Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> ites: n 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, e s 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m Marjorie, The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant from Richard Stout. You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another tout descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to prove. Marleen Van Horne Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without he quotes in the subject and the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without he quotes in the subject and the body of the message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: tp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ----------------------------- unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in e subject d the body of the message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ----------------------------- unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of e message ----Original Message----- rom: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> o: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> ent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am ubject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA f you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to u. rothers cles eat Uncles hat if the great uncles are no longer living? n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line rn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward sing census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and ituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only ughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward r 5 nerations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, shington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match th ree other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. t isn't easy research but it can be done. a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, san.avery@juno.com writes: arilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be sted - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a n Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne me, not the Stout name. usan Avery n Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> ites: n 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, e s 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m Marjorie, The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant from Richard Stout. You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another tout descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to prove. Marleen Van Horne Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without he quotes in the subject and the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without he quotes in the subject and the body of the message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: tp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ----------------------------- unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to HUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in e subject d the body of the message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ----------------------------- unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of e message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

In my projects, I take people with both the yDNA and the surname. If a man's yDNA matches an identified family with that projects surname, I accept him into the project, not matter what his surname is. By the same token, if a man has the surname, and does not biologically match anyone else in the project, I consider this a new family line for the project, because his male descendants will have his surname and his yDNA. In the case of stranger yDNA being transferred to a family with another surname, the genealogist has to come to grips with the fact that this transfer can have taken place for socially good reasons, or for absolutely unacceptable social reasons. A yDNA transfer is often the result of an undocumented adoption. If a child was an orphan with no assets, not much attention was paid to who raises them, as long as they did not become a financial burden on the community. These adoptions seldom got documented. It also depended on how socially developed was the area where the adoption happened. Parents living on the frontier often adopted the children of their married daughter who died in childbirth. Survivors adopted the children of people who died in epidemics. These children were often raised with the surnames of the adoptive parents. Our family histories are not pure as the driven snow, as far as socially acceptable goes. Women became pregnant and married a man other than the father of the child. How they became pregnant is another matter. It could have been incest, rape or hanky panky. The point to all this is that since the beginning to time the conception of children has resulted from as many circumstances as are imaginable, and that will continue to happen until the end of species. All children are entitled to know their biological histories as well as their social family histories. In my opinion, they are the richer for knowing both. Marleen Van Horne Marleen Van Horne

If anyone needs photos of Stout family graves in Henry County, Indiana...just let me know. This line of Stouts came from New Jersey via England and then to Ohio and Indiana. mpcc@comcast.net Mark -----Original Message----- From: BMacKie Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 1:10 PM To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion;The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. BUT...Marilyn...now you can test for autosomal DNA which shows relationships. We've been doing that for over a year now. And that's how I found my Bonham matches. Brownie ________________________________ From: "susan.avery@juno.com" <susan.avery@juno.com> To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. Marilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be tested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a Van Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne name, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> writes: > On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, > he > is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > > Marjorie, > > > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant > from > > Richard Stout. > > > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another > Stout > > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to > prove. > > > > Marleen Van Horne > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

 I have a friend whose grandfather was never formally adopted but they know he came from an entirely different family; we have no idea  why he was taken in by the adopting family.  I also have family members back a generation who were raised by others when they were made orphans.  My two grandchildren are adopted and I have researched their individual backgrounds as well as the tree they share with us. On an even  more personal note, I didn't know the family of my biological mother (except for one cousin) as she died when I was a baby.  Years later I was explaining to that cousin that I was baking my usual gingerbread house and ornaments that I had made annually for many years.  My cousin said I had "the gingergread gene" as our common grandmother said she was descended from a Hessian soldier and she always made gingerbread houses!  I had no way of knowing that.  I still haven't found the Hessian soldier connection, either!  

Unfortunately, in the world of genetic genealogy, the conventionally researched paper pedigree is the weakest link. The basic reason for this is human frailty, as related to research and biology. When it comes to conventional research we all know all of the things that lead to defective paper pedigree. The Stout discussion gave many examples of the difficulty with the history of Penelope Stout. On the other hand, yDNA does not lie. Two or more individuals are either biologically related, or they are not. The great difficulty, even tragedy, comes when you have someone who has spent 30 years researching a pedigree, only to find out they do not biologically match the surname. Figuring out where the biological line of descent was contaminated by stranger yDNA is some times as easy as checking out the cousins and sometimes requires going back centuries. Among the Scots, rape was a tool of war. I have a project for a lowland Scots surname. One of the subscribers has what would be considered very close matches with 10 different Scots surnames. Two factors determine how far back in time the yDNA transfer might have happened. One factor is the stability or volatility of the yDNA in a particular family line. The other is the number of mutations between matching individuals. The idea being the more mutations, the farther back in time. I know of one project, Bradt, with 17 men who descend from two brother who immigrated to Albany about 1660. Among those men, there are only 3 mutations. If your surname yDNA line of research had been contaminated by someone from this family, you would have a very hard time figuring out how far back in time the yDNA transfer happened. On the other hand if you look at the Van Horne project, you will see that 9 descendants of Matthys Cornelissen, immigrated 1663, have 29 mutations between them. If another family's yDNA had been contaminated by someone from this Van Horne family, by tracking the mutations it might be possible to identify which part of the family the yDNA transfer came from. So, yes, it is possible to figure out, when and where the yDNA transfer happened. It is a matter of checking is the census records for a male with the stranger DNA / surname who lived in proximity with the family you are researching. This happened recently in one of my projects. We had three men with 3 different surnames, who genetically matched one another. One man was born with the surname of the project, the other two were not. Research in the census records identified the two different men with the project surname who very likely transferred their yDNA to two different surnames. One transfer took place in the 1840s and the other in the 1880s. To answer Renee, we actually have two different pedigrees. We have our biological pedigree, which is based entirely on our genetic make up, and we have our social pedigree which are based on the history of the families in which we are raised. Last week, This American Life on NPR aired a program about two baby girls that were switched at birth. I suggest you listen to it. My own experience with genetic genealogy leads me to believe our genes play a much larger role in who we are as individuals than the environment in which we are raised. Our environment probably only fine tunes who we are. Marleen Van Horne

Judging from my experiences with adoptees (I have several friends who are adopted, and several friends who have adopted children), I would say that there's always a certain longing in an adoptee to find his roots.  This correlates with the longing of the people descended from slaves to find their roots.  When I speak of roots, I speak of connection.  There's an innate something in us all that wants to be connected.  ________________________________ From: Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA     I'm glad you asked that question because it has been bothering me. Only I phrase it differently: Where is the line between "family history" and genetics? Is there a point where one says that it is family that is important, not genetics, or does one stick strictly to a genetic line?     This seems particularly troublesome in instances of adoption because the insistence on genetic tracing undercuts the entire purpose of adoption which is to create family and to continue a family into the future.  Why bother to adopt if that child will not be viewed as a member of the family by future generations?     So what is really being studied?     Renee L. Dauven On 3/31/2012 11:41 AM, kaysfo@aol.com wrote: > > It wouldn't in a sense bother me either.  The nasty surprise is in thinking that one has everything nailed down  with a well -documented paper trail, and then finding out that a whole line of your family isn't your family.  And where do you start to redo a whole line.  Can you tell how far back the "non-parental episode" happened. > > If ggg-grandma had a child that did not belong to gg-grandpa, how could you tell if it was the butcher, the baker, or the candlestick maker? Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm glad you asked that question because it has been bothering me. Only I phrase it differently: Where is the line between "family history" and genetics? Is there a point where one says that it is family that is important, not genetics, or does one stick strictly to a genetic line? This seems particularly troublesome in instances of adoption because the insistence on genetic tracing undercuts the entire purpose of adoption which is to create family and to continue a family into the future. Why bother to adopt if that child will not be viewed as a member of the family by future generations? So what is really being studied? Renee L. Dauven On 3/31/2012 11:41 AM, kaysfo@aol.com wrote: > > It wouldn't in a sense bother me either. The nasty surprise is in thinking that one has everything nailed down with a well -documented paper trail, and then finding out that a whole line of your family isn't your family. And where do you start to redo a whole line. Can you tell how far back the "non-parental episode" happened. > > If ggg-grandma had a child that did not belong to gg-grandpa, how could you tell if it was the butcher, the baker, or the candlestick maker?

And I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some really nasty surprises when they find out that there has either been an unknown illegitmate birth or an adoption that occured generations ago. We call those non-parental episodes.  There will also be fifth cousins from another race who were sired by our illustrious slave owning males.  That doesn't bother me, I welcome that knowledge,  but it will some people.  One of the participants in a DNA project I administer wrote me to tell me he'd found out that only one of his four brothers was actually sired by the man who raised them.  ________________________________ From: "kaysfo@aol.com" <kaysfo@aol.com> To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA Yes, I found a female third cousin online descended from one of my New England lines.  We became regular correspondents over a ten year period (and sister/cousins/ best friends). She had a male first cousin who still bore the name.  He consented to be tested.  What the DNA showed upended a lot of previous research on that line.  We had tried to prove our contentions with a paper trail, which was pretty much ignored, but when combined with the DNA, it opened eyes and provided proof which could not be ignored. I am certain that DNA testing is going to really, in many cases, muddy the waters considerably for the next fifty years or so.  People are really going to have to hit the research trail in earnest and seek out those primary sources, because a lot of the "facts" in the kinds of books we have been talking about are going to be proven erroneous. Many people will have to start from scratch so to speak. And I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some really nasty surprises when they find out that there has either been an unknown illegitmate birth or an adoption that occured generations ago. Kay -----Original Message----- From: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> To: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA If you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male  Stout to ou. rothers ncles reat Uncles hat if the great uncles are no longer living? n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line  orn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward using census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and bituaries when  I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only aughters in a  generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward or 5 enerations  and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, ashington. I convinced one  to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match ith hree other distant  Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor n upstate New York  about the time of the Revolutionary War. t isn't easy research but it can be done. n a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  usan.avery@juno.com writes: Marilyn  - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order  to be ested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is  a an Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van  Horne ame, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar  2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore  <scarlett1@mchsi.com> rites: On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen  Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, he is 48, lives here  in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > >  The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant   from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an  atDNA test and hope for a match with another Stout >  descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to   prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the  Hunterdon County GenWeb page at:   http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter >  ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page  at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please  send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at:  ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to  JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes  in he subject nd the body of the  message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message -----Original Message----- From: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> To: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA If you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male  Stout to ou. rothers ncles reat Uncles hat if the great uncles are no longer living? n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line  orn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward using census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and bituaries when  I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only aughters in a  generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward or 5 enerations  and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, ashington. I convinced one  to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match ith hree other distant  Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor n upstate New York  about the time of the Revolutionary War. t isn't easy research but it can be done. n a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  usan.avery@juno.com writes: Marilyn  - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order  to be ested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is  a an Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van  Horne ame, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar  2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore  <scarlett1@mchsi.com> rites: On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen  Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, he is 48, lives here  in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > >  The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant   from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an  atDNA test and hope for a match with another Stout >  descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to   prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the  Hunterdon County GenWeb page at:   http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter >  ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list,  please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page  at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter   ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please  send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word  'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the  message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at:  ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o  unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to  JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes  in he subject nd the body of the  message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

BUT...Marilyn...now you can test for autosomal DNA which shows relationships.  We've been doing that for over a year now.  And that's how I found my Bonham matches.  Brownie ________________________________ From: "susan.avery@juno.com" <susan.avery@juno.com> To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2012 7:28 AM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. Marilyn  - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be tested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a Van Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne name, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> writes: > On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, > he > is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > > Marjorie, > > > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant > from > > Richard Stout. > > > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another > Stout > > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to > prove. > > > > Marleen Van Horne > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Now both major companies, 23&Me and FTDNA, are testing autosomal DNA, which shows RELATIONSHIPS between males/females, males/males, and females/females.  I've tested with both.  And there's a wonderful site called GedMatch, which is free, that accepts raw data from both companies and shows relationships for you from both.  ________________________________ From: Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. On 3/30/2012 8:01 PM, Gary in Berkeley wrote: I accept your two cents, even tho' I am waiting to check the Lottery tonight! does theDNA khave to be from a male Stout descendant?I can do that if so, marjorie parker devore in Illinois > Well put, Brownie. >      Mistaken copies of my family history abound, taken from unsupported public 'trees', no thanks to an early researcher making quantum leaps of faith that have been proven outlandishly wrong. But, the wind-horse is out of the barn, spreading errant messages. >      Mary Fox and the Bonhams, et al, are some of my shirttail kin, and are interesting to know about, so are in my tree. >      Cheers, >      Gary Smith > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: BMacKie<lu2silly@yahoo.com> > To: Kay Larsen<kaysfo@yahoo.com>, njhunter@rootsweb.com > Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:24:51 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion;    The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. > > Many people are afraid to buck the writers of some of the early family histories.  We've had that problem with  Bonham material.  When one of us presents "new evidence" from primary or secondary sources it is not readily accepted.  So the myths continue to be circulated. We've had so much trouble with the Mayflower Soc. and Hezekiah's second family, but recently I (from Malakiah) matched autosomal DNA with a person from Hezekiah's first family, and the Mayflower Soc. has agreed to accept DNA results along with the paper trail.  I'm not interested in another lineage society, but many are.  Internet research can be quite satisfactory, if one is patient and knows how to use it properly and if one is actually researching and not "borrowing" information from someone else.  Staying away from others' "trees" and not using Ancestry.com and the LDS (unless you're looking at primary sources only) is mandatory.  There are way too many "copycats" in this >  business.  :-) And we know that the problem is they're usually copying the wrong information.  Just my two cents. > > > Brownie MacKie, Bonham researcher > > > > ________________________________ >  From: Kay Larsen > To: "njhunter@rootsweb.com" > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. > > AMEN, Jack.  You are so right! > > > From: Jack Fallin > To: njhunter@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:59 PM > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. > > Dear All, > > Although I do not have any Stout links, I've followed this discussion with interest.  At one point, someone pointed out that the lack of original source references is a problem with internet research.  The problem is much larger than that.  The book cited by Nancy in her note is perhaps late enough (1970) to have included the primary sources for the information the author gives, although those sources don't appear in the quoted section.  It was far more common in earlier "Family" genealogical books to provide absolutely no reference to the primary sources.  It was as if the researcher, convinced of his or her own skills, expected the work to always be accepted as gospel.  The result creates two separate problems: > > 1.  The book may be wrong -- but because it doesn't provide a means for directly checking against a primary source, the reader is left with the very difficult task of going back and finding/guessing what the author used. > > 2.  Perhaps worse, the existence of the book tends to dry up original research by giving the perhaps false impression that all the necessary work has been done so family members should just assume everything it says is right. > > Although not a Stout, we Holcombe researchers have the above described problem in spades.  We actually have two books (one very large and seemingly comprehensive) that seem to cover the whole field -- but there is not a primary source reference anywhere in either one. > > Jack Fallin > Walnut Creek, CA > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Nancy Willis wrote: > >> My family had connections to these Stouts and my information comes from the second edition of 'Stout and Allied Families' 1970, Compiled and Edited by Herald F. Stout, Read Admiral, United States navy (Retired). >> My connection is much further down the line in Indiana I think. >> >> In it he does relate the story of Penelope Van Princin. He ways it is difficult to tell how much of the history is fact and how much is legend. He also mentions the Kent or (Lent) >> >> He says: "'Marriages before 1699' records Richard Stout and Penelope Kent (or Lent), widow of Van Printzen 1634/35. He says that date is in error (at least biologically) is evident on an examinatioin of the other data available. Reasonably, from known vital statistics, Penelope could not have been born until 1622, and a second marriage at age fourteen years of age would be highly unlikely. Also, since the last child of this union was not born until 1669, tis would serve to fortify the contentioin for correctness of a 1622 birthdate." >> The book appears well researched. >> I have come across over the years the story of Penelope's survival in other places but as the author says no way to know fact or legend. >> Nancy Willis >> Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, I found a female third cousin online descended from one of my New England lines. We became regular correspondents over a ten year period (and sister/cousins/ best friends). She had a male first cousin who still bore the name. He consented to be tested. What the DNA showed upended a lot of previous research on that line. We had tried to prove our contentions with a paper trail, which was pretty much ignored, but when combined with the DNA, it opened eyes and provided proof which could not be ignored. I am certain that DNA testing is going to really, in many cases, muddy the waters considerably for the next fifty years or so. People are really going to have to hit the research trail in earnest and seek out those primary sources, because a lot of the "facts" in the kinds of books we have been talking about are going to be proven erroneous. Many people will have to start from scratch so to speak. And I am sure that there are some people who are going to get some really nasty surprises when they find out that there has either been an unknown illegitmate birth or an adoption that occured generations ago. Kay -----Original Message----- From: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> To: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA If you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to ou. rothers ncles reat Uncles hat if the great uncles are no longer living? n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line orn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward using census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and bituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only aughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward or 5 enerations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, ashington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match ith hree other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor n upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. t isn't easy research but it can be done. n a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, usan.avery@juno.com writes: Marilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be ested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a an Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne ame, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> rites: On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, he is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another Stout > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in he subject nd the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message -----Original Message----- From: JanAlpert <JanAlpert@aol.com> To: njhunter <njhunter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 8:50 am Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] Y chromosome DNA If you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to ou. rothers ncles reat Uncles hat if the great uncles are no longer living? n one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line orn in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward using census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and bituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only aughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward or 5 enerations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, ashington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match ith hree other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor n upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. t isn't easy research but it can be done. n a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, usan.avery@juno.com writes: Marilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be ested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a an Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne ame, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> rites: On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, he is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another Stout > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message isit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: ttp://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to JHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in he subject nd the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

If you are not a male Stout, you need to find the closest male Stout to you. Brothers Uncles Great Uncles What if the great uncles are no longer living? In one of my surnames (Hodge), I was able to take my last male in the line born in 1831 (my great, great grandfather) and trace all his 7 sons forward using census on Ancestry and the Social Security Death Index and obituaries when I got to the earlier years. Several had no children or only daughters in a generation or two. But I was able to continue one line forward for 5 generations and found two living male cousins living in Tacoma, Washington. I convinced one to do the DNA at my expense and I now have a match with three other distant Hodge cousins. We are now looking for a common ancestor in upstate New York about the time of the Revolutionary War. It isn't easy research but it can be done. In a message dated 3/31/2012 8:32:00 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, susan.avery@juno.com writes: Marilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be tested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a Van Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne name, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> writes: > On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, > he > is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > > Marjorie, > > > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant > from > > Richard Stout. > > > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another > Stout > > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to > prove. > > > > Marleen Van Horne > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Marilyn - the male must still bear the surname Stout in order to be tested - they neglected to tell you that. I imagine that your son is a Van Horne and to have his DNA test done would only trace the Van Horne name, not the Stout name. Susan Avery On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 23:09:33 -0500 Marjorie Devore <scarlett1@mchsi.com> writes: > On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, > he > is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > > Marjorie, > > > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant > from > > Richard Stout. > > > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another > Stout > > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to > prove. > > > > Marleen Van Horne > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: > http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Kay, you're absolutely correct!  There is a book about "Josiah Moore of Hunterdon County" and it totally discounts those of us who never left New Jersey (or even Hunterdon County!).  I had communicated with the out-of-state author several times but he wasn't particularly interested. I tried to explain that not every member of every family had moved to Fayette, Pennsylvania!  You can't always trust the printed word. I have an aunt who just wrote a book of her life and had it published through a vanity press and we know some of the "facts" are incorrect.   Sharon Harry and Sharon Moore Colquhoun Yardville, NJ Our family website

I have NOT been following this chain of inquiry, so forgive me if you've already talked about the Wikipedia writeup about Penelope Stout and the links attached to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penelope_Stout -Rita On Mar 30, 2012, at 11:44 PM, Marjorie Devore wrote: > On 3/30/2012 1:16 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: > > > > Marilyn, thanks! New idea I had not tried yet!!! will do that, maybe > with a lot more work, this can be pinned down! Besides telling her story > about being shipwrecked and living in tree while wounded, there is very > little about her early life!!! wonder what ship it was? marjorie in Illnois >> I am not a Stout descendant. My only interest is the surname is Rex >> Stout, the creator of Nero Wolf, who I believe was a descendant. >> >> I do believe that Penelope met and married Richard Stout while they were >> living at Gravesend, the settlement in Brooklyn founded by Lady Deborah >> Moody. You might want to check the Gravesend records for confirmation >> of Penelope's history. >> >> Marleen Van Horne >> Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well put, Brownie. Mistaken copies of my family history abound, taken from unsupported public 'trees', no thanks to an early researcher making quantum leaps of faith that have been proven outlandishly wrong. But, the wind-horse is out of the barn, spreading errant messages. Mary Fox and the Bonhams, et al, are some of my shirttail kin, and are interesting to know about, so are in my tree. Cheers, Gary Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: BMacKie <lu2silly@yahoo.com> To: Kay Larsen <kaysfo@yahoo.com>, njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:24:51 -0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. Many people are afraid to buck the writers of some of the early family histories. We've had that problem with Bonham material. When one of us presents "new evidence" from primary or secondary sources it is not readily accepted. So the myths continue to be circulated. We've had so much trouble with the Mayflower Soc. and Hezekiah's second family, but recently I (from Malakiah) matched autosomal DNA with a person from Hezekiah's first family, and the Mayflower Soc. has agreed to accept DNA results along with the paper trail. I'm not interested in another lineage society, but many are. Internet research can be quite satisfactory, if one is patient and knows how to use it properly and if one is actually researching and not "borrowing" information from someone else. Staying away from others' "trees" and not using Ancestry.com and the LDS (unless you're looking at primary sources only) is mandatory. There are way too many "copycats" in this business. :-) And we know that the problem is they're usually copying the wrong information. Just my two cents. Brownie MacKie, Bonham researcher ________________________________ From: Kay Larsen To: "njhunter@rootsweb.com" Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. AMEN, Jack. You are so right! From: Jack Fallin To: njhunter@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:59 PM Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. Dear All, Although I do not have any Stout links, I've followed this discussion with interest. At one point, someone pointed out that the lack of original source references is a problem with internet research. The problem is much larger than that. The book cited by Nancy in her note is perhaps late enough (1970) to have included the primary sources for the information the author gives, although those sources don't appear in the quoted section. It was far more common in earlier "Family" genealogical books to provide absolutely no reference to the primary sources. It was as if the researcher, convinced of his or her own skills, expected the work to always be accepted as gospel. The result creates two separate problems: 1. The book may be wrong -- but because it doesn't provide a means for directly checking against a primary source, the reader is left with the very difficult task of going back and finding/guessing what the author used. 2. Perhaps worse, the existence of the book tends to dry up original research by giving the perhaps false impression that all the necessary work has been done so family members should just assume everything it says is right. Although not a Stout, we Holcombe researchers have the above described problem in spades. We actually have two books (one very large and seemingly comprehensive) that seem to cover the whole field -- but there is not a primary source reference anywhere in either one. Jack Fallin Walnut Creek, CA On Mar 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Nancy Willis wrote: > My family had connections to these Stouts and my information comes from the second edition of 'Stout and Allied Families' 1970, Compiled and Edited by Herald F. Stout, Read Admiral, United States navy (Retired). > My connection is much further down the line in Indiana I think. > > In it he does relate the story of Penelope Van Princin. He ways it is difficult to tell how much of the history is fact and how much is legend. He also mentions the Kent or (Lent) > > He says: "'Marriages before 1699' records Richard Stout and Penelope Kent (or Lent), widow of Van Printzen 1634/35. He says that date is in error (at least biologically) is evident on an examinatioin of the other data available. Reasonably, from known vital statistics, Penelope could not have been born until 1622, and a second marriage at age fourteen years of age would be highly unlikely. Also, since the last child of this union was not born until 1669, tis would serve to fortify the contentioin for correctness of a 1622 birthdate." > The book appears well researched. > I have come across over the years the story of Penelope's survival in other places but as the author says no way to know fact or legend. > Nancy Willis > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 3/30/2012 11:06 PM, Marleen Van Horne wrote: My son would do this, he is 48, lives here in my town, how do I begin? m > Marjorie, > > The yDNA has to be from a male who is a biological descendant from > Richard Stout. > > You could do an atDNA test and hope for a match with another Stout > descendant, gender does not matter, but the matches are harder to prove. > > Marleen Van Horne > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

On 3/30/2012 8:01 PM, Gary in Berkeley wrote: I accept your two cents, even tho' I am waiting to check the Lottery tonight! does theDNA khave to be from a male Stout descendant?I can do that if so, marjorie parker devore in Illinois > Well put, Brownie. > Mistaken copies of my family history abound, taken from unsupported public 'trees', no thanks to an early researcher making quantum leaps of faith that have been proven outlandishly wrong. But, the wind-horse is out of the barn, spreading errant messages. > Mary Fox and the Bonhams, et al, are some of my shirttail kin, and are interesting to know about, so are in my tree. > Cheers, > Gary Smith > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: BMacKie<lu2silly@yahoo.com> > To: Kay Larsen<kaysfo@yahoo.com>, njhunter@rootsweb.com > Sent: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 21:24:51 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. > > Many people are afraid to buck the writers of some of the early family histories. We've had that problem with Bonham material. When one of us presents "new evidence" from primary or secondary sources it is not readily accepted. So the myths continue to be circulated. We've had so much trouble with the Mayflower Soc. and Hezekiah's second family, but recently I (from Malakiah) matched autosomal DNA with a person from Hezekiah's first family, and the Mayflower Soc. has agreed to accept DNA results along with the paper trail. I'm not interested in another lineage society, but many are. Internet research can be quite satisfactory, if one is patient and knows how to use it properly and if one is actually researching and not "borrowing" information from someone else. Staying away from others' "trees" and not using Ancestry.com and the LDS (unless you're looking at primary sources only) is mandatory. There are way too many "copycats" in this > business. :-) And we know that the problem is they're usually copying the wrong information. Just my two cents. > > > Brownie MacKie, Bonham researcher > > > > ________________________________ > From: Kay Larsen > To: "njhunter@rootsweb.com" > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 3:09 PM > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. > > AMEN, Jack. You are so right! > > > From: Jack Fallin > To: njhunter@rootsweb.com > Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 1:59 PM > Subject: Re: [NJHUNTER] the Stout Discussion; The Problem with any Source that isn't Primary. > > Dear All, > > Although I do not have any Stout links, I've followed this discussion with interest. At one point, someone pointed out that the lack of original source references is a problem with internet research. The problem is much larger than that. The book cited by Nancy in her note is perhaps late enough (1970) to have included the primary sources for the information the author gives, although those sources don't appear in the quoted section. It was far more common in earlier "Family" genealogical books to provide absolutely no reference to the primary sources. It was as if the researcher, convinced of his or her own skills, expected the work to always be accepted as gospel. The result creates two separate problems: > > 1. The book may be wrong -- but because it doesn't provide a means for directly checking against a primary source, the reader is left with the very difficult task of going back and finding/guessing what the author used. > > 2. Perhaps worse, the existence of the book tends to dry up original research by giving the perhaps false impression that all the necessary work has been done so family members should just assume everything it says is right. > > Although not a Stout, we Holcombe researchers have the above described problem in spades. We actually have two books (one very large and seemingly comprehensive) that seem to cover the whole field -- but there is not a primary source reference anywhere in either one. > > Jack Fallin > Walnut Creek, CA > > On Mar 30, 2012, at 10:28 AM, Nancy Willis wrote: > >> My family had connections to these Stouts and my information comes from the second edition of 'Stout and Allied Families' 1970, Compiled and Edited by Herald F. Stout, Read Admiral, United States navy (Retired). >> My connection is much further down the line in Indiana I think. >> >> In it he does relate the story of Penelope Van Princin. He ways it is difficult to tell how much of the history is fact and how much is legend. He also mentions the Kent or (Lent) >> >> He says: "'Marriages before 1699' records Richard Stout and Penelope Kent (or Lent), widow of Van Printzen 1634/35. He says that date is in error (at least biologically) is evident on an examinatioin of the other data available. Reasonably, from known vital statistics, Penelope could not have been born until 1622, and a second marriage at age fourteen years of age would be highly unlikely. Also, since the last child of this union was not born until 1669, tis would serve to fortify the contentioin for correctness of a 1622 birthdate." >> The book appears well researched. >> I have come across over the years the story of Penelope's survival in other places but as the author says no way to know fact or legend. >> Nancy Willis >> Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > Visit the Hunterdon County GenWeb page at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~njhunter > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NJHUNTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >