> > Does anyone know the modern day difference between The Little River Band > and the Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians? I am confused because they both > trace to the same chiefs. In the early 19th c. there were a dozen or more Odawa villages in the Kalamazoo, Grand / Thornapple, & Muskegon river systems, each an independent band; under terms of the 1836 Washington treaty they ceded claims to land north of the Grand (lands south were previously ceded by 1821 Chicago treaty). As the land north of the Grand was subsequently surveyed and offered for sale, many (most?) of the bands migrated north (where most of them had roots proceeding their southern habitation) or expatriated themselves into Canada. The 1855 treaty effected the removal of the remaining bands by withdrawing from public sale designated tracts of land which would be allotted to their members. Although that treaty dealt with other bands as well, the lands salient to the modern Grand River / Little River bands were four townships in Oceana & Mason County to which the remaining peoples then migrated. I can't comment on whatever modern political issues may be, but in the historical sense there was no schism or split behind the modern differentiation between the Little and Grand River polities -- the significant difference is, as noted, that Little River band achieved federal recognition while those attempting to achieve recognition as a distinct Grand River band have not. Thus anyone wanting full benefit of 'tribal' membership is likely to have opted into Little River rather than taken a chance on eventual fulfillment of another petition.. As a final note, it isn't descent from the 'chiefs' themselves but from members of each ogema's band [from those treaties] that determines relationships to Little & Grand River bands as currently constituted. Regards - rdw

What you teach you must believe David >From: "Debbie Bert" <debbiebert@ameritech.net> >Reply-To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com >To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [NISHNAWBE] Miami Indians, Godfroys Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 >20:05:40 -0400 > >My interest lies with the Miami Indians of Indiana. My line comes from the >Godfroys. > >************************************** >Debbie Bert <debbiebert@ameritech.net> >************************************** >What you accept, you teach. > > > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Nancy, Thanks for your answer. I do have the name of the chiefs that are traced to both tribes. They are the same chiefs. I know the Little River Band is out of Manistee and the Grand River Bands of Ottawa Indian's are out of Grand Rapids. I was trying to understand the difference, but maybe the Little River Band is an offshoot of The Grand River Bands. Maybe, just as your saying, they broke away. If your mom does know other information please let me know. Jenni gpenn54@msn.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Nancy McFarland To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 6:58 AM Subject: Re: [NISHNAWBE] Grand River Band vs Little River Band Hi Jenni, My family is a member of the Little River Band and this is what I understand is the difference. A part of the Grand River Band wanted to break away and established that if you were decended from these certain cheifs (I think there were 6 of them) you would be a part of the Little River Band. Little River achieved federal recognition as you know while Grand River is still struggling to organize themselves as I understand. My mom has the details on which chiefs they were talking about if you would like to know, I can get the info from her. Nancy > Does anyone know the modern day difference between The Little River Band and the Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians? I am confused because they both trace to the same chiefs. > > Jenni ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

True! ************************************** Debbie Bert <debbiebert@ameritech.net> ************************************** What you accept, you teach. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Fournier [mailto:eydistrict@hotmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 3:30 PM > To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NISHNAWBE] Miami Indians, Godfroys > > > What you teach you must believe > David > > > >From: "Debbie Bert" <debbiebert@ameritech.net> > >Reply-To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com > >To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: [NISHNAWBE] Miami Indians, Godfroys Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 > >20:05:40 -0400 > > > >My interest lies with the Miami Indians of Indiana. My line > comes from the > >Godfroys. > > > >************************************** > >Debbie Bert <debbiebert@ameritech.net> > >************************************** > >What you accept, you teach. > > > > > > > >============================== > >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, > >go to: > >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy > records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Hello I am asking for some help. I have looked through the census (plural) and have not had any luck. Maybe someone out there will recognize the name My grandfathers name was Lennard Pierce. We are from the Ingham County, MI area. From what I understand, his mother, Mary Pierce (Beech) was 100% indian. I was told that we are Potowatomi. My sister says that we are Ottowa. I have found only one listing, and I don't think it is right. Does anyone know where I can start with this. Thank you for anytime that you give Heather

Can anyone provide more information about a Marie Belanger "of Canada" who married George Hull (or George Zull) "of Canada"--information about either the bride or groom is welcome--per the Mackinac Register, 15 Jul 1841, witnesses, Paul and Angelique Belanger? Thanks! Jeff

My interest lies with the Miami Indians of Indiana. My line comes from the Godfroys. ************************************** Debbie Bert <debbiebert@ameritech.net> ************************************** What you accept, you teach.

Hi Jenni, My family is a member of the Little River Band and this is what I understand is the difference. A part of the Grand River Band wanted to break away and established that if you were decended from these certain cheifs (I think there were 6 of them) you would be a part of the Little River Band. Little River achieved federal recognition as you know while Grand River is still struggling to organize themselves as I understand. My mom has the details on which chiefs they were talking about if you would like to know, I can get the info from her. Nancy > Does anyone know the modern day difference between The Little River Band and the Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians? I am confused because they both trace to the same chiefs. > > Jenni

Thanks for all the answers to my Pays de Haut question. The person I am looking for is Sarah Kissiokowa, mother of Charlotte Auger (born 1776) and wife of Pierre Auger. Charlotte married Jean Baptiste Gouin in Sept. 18, 1852 at St. Gabriel De Brandon, Que. The Pay de Haut appears on their church marriage record after her mothers name. Yes, this is the correct date for their marriage in the church, they had to wait until Jean Baptiste's first wife died before they could get married in the church. Another odd thing is on the 1851 census Charlotte is listed as being born in OHIO, also one son but the others are all born Que. I have been looking all over for Sarah. Any ideas are certainly welcome. I went to a Pow Wow in Michigan and talked to an Indian man from Oka and he said there was a tribe that called themselves High country People but he didn't think any were still alive. Also my grandfather was born in St. Michel de Saints but said at that time it was called Mattawa. Thanks Jan Gouin > > > Food for thought. But always exceptions. > > In my research of Algonquins from Oka who migrated to Maniwaki QC. Some of > the Maniwaki records say born in Pays d'en Haut but actually born in Fort > Temiscamingue area and Mattagami, ON. Temiscamingue is part of the Ottawa > River Watershed and Mattagami River/Lake flow from the James Bay. I will > try and locate those records for the group. > > Why than do we exclude Lake Ontario. > > I will consult a few Quebec Historians and see what their take is on this > one. > > Regards Aline

Lower Canada was always considered to be the Quebec area of the time David >From: Nimrodkiss@aol.com >Reply-To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com >To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [NISHNAWBE] Pays de Haut >Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:51:02 EDT > > >Hi > Now I am wondering even more. I thought she was born around St Michel >de >Saints, Berthier Co. Quebec but that would be Lower Canada. > Jan Gouin > > > > Here is a link that shows how the country was divided. Lower Canada, >Upper > > Canada and Rupert's Land. In Oka when they talked of Pays d'en Haut >they > > were referring to Upper Canada. > > > > http://www.londonhistory.org/upper.htm > > > > Regards Aline > > > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Do you have any knowledge of an Ohio,Canada,my ggrandmother who was part native american list her birth place as such...Thank You ..Robert Ferrin

Food for thought. But always exceptions. In my research of Algonquins from Oka who migrated to Maniwaki QC. Some of the Maniwaki records say born in Pays d'en Haut but actually born in Fort Temiscamingue area and Mattagami, ON. Temiscamingue is part of the Ottawa River Watershed and Mattagami River/Lake flow from the James Bay. I will try and locate those records for the group. Why than do we exclude Lake Ontario. I will consult a few Quebec Historians and see what their take is on this one. Regards Aline ----- Original Message ----- From: "R D Winthrop" <RDWinthrop@a1access.net> To: <NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [NISHNAWBE] Pays de Haut > > >> Here is a link that shows how the country was divided. Lower Canada, Upper > >> Canada and Rupert's Land. In Oka when they talked of Pays d'en Haut they > >> were referring to Upper Canada. <http://www.londonhistory.org/upper.htm> > > > Now I am wondering even more. I thought she was born around St Michel de > > Saints, Berthier Co. Quebec but that would be Lower Canada. > > ______________________________ > > > 'Think in Time' and it will be clear why the characterization of the > 'Pays de Haut' simply as the equivalent of Upper Canada is not > entirely accurate. > > "Pays de Haut" is a term of the French regime, probably from 17th c. > > The British administrative divisions of Upper and Lower Canada are > 18th c. constructions (as was Rupert's Land, which was essentially > the Hudson's Bay Company trading concession). > > As Larry W pointed out, the "upper country" was a great deal larger > than just Upper Canada, including most of what would become the > American Northwest Territory as well as what would becomee Upper > Canada. Consider the Pays de Haut to be the watersheds of the Great > Lakes (excluding Lake Ontario). > > Regards - rdw > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

>> Here is a link that shows how the country was divided. Lower Canada, Upper >> Canada and Rupert's Land. In Oka when they talked of Pays d'en Haut they >> were referring to Upper Canada. <http://www.londonhistory.org/upper.htm> > Now I am wondering even more. I thought she was born around St Michel de > Saints, Berthier Co. Quebec but that would be Lower Canada. ______________________________ 'Think in Time' and it will be clear why the characterization of the 'Pays de Haut' simply as the equivalent of Upper Canada is not entirely accurate. "Pays de Haut" is a term of the French regime, probably from 17th c. The British administrative divisions of Upper and Lower Canada are 18th c. constructions (as was Rupert's Land, which was essentially the Hudson's Bay Company trading concession). As Larry W pointed out, the "upper country" was a great deal larger than just Upper Canada, including most of what would become the American Northwest Territory as well as what would becomee Upper Canada. Consider the Pays de Haut to be the watersheds of the Great Lakes (excluding Lake Ontario). Regards - rdw

Does anyone know the modern day difference between The Little River Band and the Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians? I am confused because they both trace to the same chiefs. Jenni

This is great, thanks! ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Ford To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 6:29 AM Subject: Re: [NISHNAWBE] Church records Hope this helps: Pittman, Philip McM., 1941- Title : Don't blame the treaties : Native American rights and the Michigan Indian treaties / by Philip McM. Pittman, with George M. Covington. Published : West Bloomfield, Mich. : Altwerger and Mandel Pub. Co., c1992. On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 LynneM5942@aol.com wrote: > Sorry, I do not recall the author of "Don't Blame-----", my copy is at our > home in the Carolinas - you might try Inter Library Loan at your local library. > See if it pops up on their computer list. Sorry, I can't be any more help > than that. But keep me posted & when I get back to the Carolinas in October, > remind me again. > Sincerely, Lynne m > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Hope this helps: Pittman, Philip McM., 1941- Title : Don't blame the treaties : Native American rights and the Michigan Indian treaties / by Philip McM. Pittman, with George M. Covington. Published : West Bloomfield, Mich. : Altwerger and Mandel Pub. Co., c1992. On Wed, 27 Aug 2003 LynneM5942@aol.com wrote: > Sorry, I do not recall the author of "Don't Blame-----", my copy is at our > home in the Carolinas - you might try Inter Library Loan at your local library. > See if it pops up on their computer list. Sorry, I can't be any more help > than that. But keep me posted & when I get back to the Carolinas in October, > remind me again. > Sincerely, Lynne m > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Hi Now I am wondering even more. I thought she was born around St Michel de Saints, Berthier Co. Quebec but that would be Lower Canada. Jan Gouin > > Here is a link that shows how the country was divided. Lower Canada, Upper > Canada and Rupert's Land. In Oka when they talked of Pays d'en Haut they > were referring to Upper Canada. > > http://www.londonhistory.org/upper.htm > > Regards Aline

Sorry, I do not recall the author of "Don't Blame-----", my copy is at our home in the Carolinas - you might try Inter Library Loan at your local library. See if it pops up on their computer list. Sorry, I can't be any more help than that. But keep me posted & when I get back to the Carolinas in October, remind me again. Sincerely, Lynne m

Lynne, Curious as to who the author is for the book you list, "Don't Blame the Treaties". Can you let me know. Jenni ----- Original Message ----- From: LynneM5942@aol.com To: NISHNAWBE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 7:51 PM Subject: Re: [NISHNAWBE] Church records Have a question that's been on my mind for a while --- have you read "Don't Blame the Treaties"? Have a copy in our home in the Carolinas - interesting facts regarding Rix Robinson and a few others. Yes, I do believe Antoine, Mary and Louis Snaikel belong to the Senecal (Seneschal) line. And I do not have the 1836 Half Breed Census - I'm going to try & pull it up with Copernic! I'll let you know if I'm successful.............. Put Pioneering on my favorite list too....................City library in Bozeman needs some help so I might just have to wait till we get to our home in Lake Wylie, SC (library right out my door there) to get a copy of that one. And yes, I did mean St Ignace, MI - get my I & T's mixed up - sorry bout that, sincerely, Lynne m ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

> I was told that pays de haut means from high country? Yes, it means 'upper' or 'high country' and refers to the watersheds of the upper Great Lakes; similarly, first (French) cartographic mention to (Lake) Superior was to it's elevation regarding other lakes, not to size. Regards - rdw