Not so. Look at the crests of the O'Brians, O'Rourkes, O'Reillys, O'Neills, O'Mearas, Kinsellas, Keoghs, Heffernans, Dillons, etc., etc. See: Irish Family Names, arms & origins by Brian de Breffney. Clans and Families of Ireland by John Grenham. Irish Family Histories by Ida Grehan. As many Irish families had close connections with the Anglo-Normans the rampant lion may be of Norman origin. Before the Norman invasion there likely were no family arms as such and many of the ones depicted today on all sorts of tourist items and depicted by Internet merchants are of comparatively recent or even fictional origin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donal O'Kelly" <ocollaugh@comcast.net> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > Perhaps a figment of imagination, but I have looked up hundreds of COA, > pennants and flags, and it seems to me that the lion is more associated > with > Britain, while the boar is more associated with Wales. The COA I found for > the Owen line in Wales and North Ireland both have a boar on them. > > donkelly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter McGuinness" <pmcguinness@sbcglobal.net> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:47 PM > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > > >> The McGuinness crest I have shows a Lion and a BOAR, rather than a bear. >> Maybe an excusable mistake. >> Peter >> >> Fiona Jones wrote: >>> Thanks Hugh......I should clarify....this was from the "Man About Town" >>> at >>> the Mourne Observer...I didn't write it. Perhaps you should send your >>> piece >>> to the MO in response to the MAT. I have his email address if you need >>> it. >>> >>> CHEERS!!!!!! >>> >>> Fiona. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] >>> On Behalf Of Hugh Macartney >>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 2:35 PM >>> To: nir-down@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty >>> >>> There is another explanation for the name MacGuinness and that is it >>> derives >>> >>> from the Irish MacAonghasa from the personal name Aongas (Angus) made up >>> of >>> aon (one) and gus (choice). It is said to be the name of a famous >>> Pictish >>> king of Scotland, supposedly the son of the Irish God Daghda and Boinn, >>> the >>> goddess who gave her name to the River Boyne. My Irish is a bit rusty >>> but I >>> >>> don't recognise Gion Ais. A ridge in Irish is drum/drom drimm. The >>> MacGuinnesses displaced the O'Haugheys in the 12th. C. and ruled over >>> the >>> region until the 17th.C. Kinelarty derives from Cinel Arty (territory of >>> the >>> >>> (Mac) Artans who with the Macgennis clan shared the territory. Artan is >>> said >>> >>> to come from the Celtic or perhaps Pictish word "art/artois" meaning >>> bear. >>> The Macartneys of Scotland and later Ulster likely were originally >>> MacArtans >>> >>> to went to Scotland as raiders or settlers and stayed there, the name >>> gradually changing to McCartney/Macartney and variant spellings. The >>> distance from the County Down coast to Scotland is only around 20 >>> miles - >>> an >>> >>> easy day's sail. The idea that the Mac/McArtneys were derived from the >>> McCarthys of Munster is very unlikely to be true. The Guinness crest I >>> have >>> seen has a lion and a red hand but no bear. Many thanks Fiona for an >>> interesting story and I'll drink a creamy pint to Arthur not caring if >>> he >>> was entitled to his crest or no. A large number of crests and coats of >>> arms >>> are purely fictional creations of the Victorian and earlier eras anyway. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Fiona Jones" <mourneminers@optonline.net> >>> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:00 AM >>> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty >>> >>> >>> >>>> Story below from the Man About Town (Mourne Observer Newspaper) >>>> http://www.mourneobserver.com/Man%20about%20town.htm >>>> >>>> Fiona. >>>> >>>> IGP Co. Down Coordinator >>>> >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ >>>> >>>> ============ >>>> >>>> Guinness and the Guiness connection >>>> >>>> IT seems DNA research has now linked the great Guinness brewing dynasty >>>> to >>>> the McCartan clan of Kinelarty in rural Down, rather than, has been >>>> previously claimed, the high-born Magennis chieftains of Iveagh. >>>> Newspaper reports on the discovery - contained in a new biography, >>>> "Arthur's >>>> Round: The Life and Times of Brewing Legend Arthur Guinness" - have >>>> been >>>> accompanied by such expressions as "ancestral pretensions," "an act of >>>> social climbing," and "humble background." >>>> For hundreds of years it has been assumed that brewery founder Arthur >>>> Guinness was a descendant of the Iveagh chieftains. Indeed, when he >>>> married >>>> in 1761 he engraved a silver cup with the armorial bearings of the >>>> Magennises - a lion, with the red hand of Ulster and a bear. >>>> DNA test carried out at Trinity College Dublin at the behest of the >>>> family >>>> show the male Y-chromosomes can, instead, be traced to the McCartan >>>> clan - >>>> and not the clan chiefs but, rather, their followers. >>>> Where the McCartans once lived is today the small hamlet of Guiness, a >>>> name >>>> derived from the Irish Gion Ais, meaning wedge-shaped ridge, thus >>>> explaining >>>> the roots of the surname. >>>> And, of course, as local researchers will tell you, there's a strong >>>> connection between the McCartans and the late French President Charles >>>> De >>>> Gaulle His great-grandmother was one Marie Angelique McCartan. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: >> 1/10/2008 >> 1:32 PM >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Heraldry: History of: Before 1150 AD only nobility displayed Armorial Bearings. Gradually the practice spread downwards to feudal society and the Mediaeval Crusades. Later in history, Heralds traveled around the country collecting family history and designs of the symbols they used. What they recorded was later used to authorize and family uses of the symbols. These symbols were earlier used in Europe, probably by the Normans as well, but that is another history. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Macartney" <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > Not so. Look at the crests of the O'Brians, O'Rourkes, O'Reillys, > O'Neills, > O'Mearas, Kinsellas, Keoghs, Heffernans, Dillons, etc., etc. > See: > Irish Family Names, arms & origins by Brian de Breffney. > Clans and Families of Ireland by John Grenham. > Irish Family Histories by Ida Grehan. > As many Irish families had close connections with the Anglo-Normans the > rampant lion may be of Norman origin. Before the Norman invasion there > likely were no family arms as such and many of the ones depicted today on > all sorts of tourist items and depicted by Internet merchants are of > comparatively recent or even fictional origin.

If anyone would like to support their comments with an illustration you can email them to me and I'll put them on the IGP-Down site so we can all take a look. Fiona. IGP Co. Down Coordinator http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Hugh Macartney Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:25 PM To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty Not so. Look at the crests of the O'Brians, O'Rourkes, O'Reillys, O'Neills, O'Mearas, Kinsellas, Keoghs, Heffernans, Dillons, etc., etc. See: Irish Family Names, arms & origins by Brian de Breffney. Clans and Families of Ireland by John Grenham. Irish Family Histories by Ida Grehan. As many Irish families had close connections with the Anglo-Normans the rampant lion may be of Norman origin. Before the Norman invasion there likely were no family arms as such and many of the ones depicted today on all sorts of tourist items and depicted by Internet merchants are of comparatively recent or even fictional origin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donal O'Kelly" <ocollaugh@comcast.net> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > Perhaps a figment of imagination, but I have looked up hundreds of COA, > pennants and flags, and it seems to me that the lion is more associated > with > Britain, while the boar is more associated with Wales. The COA I found for > the Owen line in Wales and North Ireland both have a boar on them. > > donkelly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter McGuinness" <pmcguinness@sbcglobal.net> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:47 PM > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > > >> The McGuinness crest I have shows a Lion and a BOAR, rather than a bear. >> Maybe an excusable mistake. >> Peter >> >> Fiona Jones wrote: >>> Thanks Hugh......I should clarify....this was from the "Man About Town" >>> at >>> the Mourne Observer...I didn't write it. Perhaps you should send your >>> piece >>> to the MO in response to the MAT. I have his email address if you need >>> it. >>> >>> CHEERS!!!!!! >>> >>> Fiona. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] >>> On Behalf Of Hugh Macartney >>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 2:35 PM >>> To: nir-down@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty >>> >>> There is another explanation for the name MacGuinness and that is it >>> derives >>> >>> from the Irish MacAonghasa from the personal name Aongas (Angus) made up >>> of >>> aon (one) and gus (choice). It is said to be the name of a famous >>> Pictish >>> king of Scotland, supposedly the son of the Irish God Daghda and Boinn, >>> the >>> goddess who gave her name to the River Boyne. My Irish is a bit rusty >>> but I >>> >>> don't recognise Gion Ais. A ridge in Irish is drum/drom drimm. The >>> MacGuinnesses displaced the O'Haugheys in the 12th. C. and ruled over >>> the >>> region until the 17th.C. Kinelarty derives from Cinel Arty (territory of >>> the >>> >>> (Mac) Artans who with the Macgennis clan shared the territory. Artan is >>> said >>> >>> to come from the Celtic or perhaps Pictish word "art/artois" meaning >>> bear. >>> The Macartneys of Scotland and later Ulster likely were originally >>> MacArtans >>> >>> to went to Scotland as raiders or settlers and stayed there, the name >>> gradually changing to McCartney/Macartney and variant spellings. The >>> distance from the County Down coast to Scotland is only around 20 >>> miles - >>> an >>> >>> easy day's sail. The idea that the Mac/McArtneys were derived from the >>> McCarthys of Munster is very unlikely to be true. The Guinness crest I >>> have >>> seen has a lion and a red hand but no bear. Many thanks Fiona for an >>> interesting story and I'll drink a creamy pint to Arthur not caring if >>> he >>> was entitled to his crest or no. A large number of crests and coats of >>> arms >>> are purely fictional creations of the Victorian and earlier eras anyway. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Fiona Jones" <mourneminers@optonline.net> >>> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:00 AM >>> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty >>> >>> >>> >>>> Story below from the Man About Town (Mourne Observer Newspaper) >>>> http://www.mourneobserver.com/Man%20about%20town.htm >>>> >>>> Fiona. >>>> >>>> IGP Co. Down Coordinator >>>> >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ >>>> >>>> ============ >>>> >>>> Guinness and the Guiness connection >>>> >>>> IT seems DNA research has now linked the great Guinness brewing dynasty >>>> to >>>> the McCartan clan of Kinelarty in rural Down, rather than, has been >>>> previously claimed, the high-born Magennis chieftains of Iveagh. >>>> Newspaper reports on the discovery - contained in a new biography, >>>> "Arthur's >>>> Round: The Life and Times of Brewing Legend Arthur Guinness" - have >>>> been >>>> accompanied by such expressions as "ancestral pretensions," "an act of >>>> social climbing," and "humble background." >>>> For hundreds of years it has been assumed that brewery founder Arthur >>>> Guinness was a descendant of the Iveagh chieftains. Indeed, when he >>>> married >>>> in 1761 he engraved a silver cup with the armorial bearings of the >>>> Magennises - a lion, with the red hand of Ulster and a bear. >>>> DNA test carried out at Trinity College Dublin at the behest of the >>>> family >>>> show the male Y-chromosomes can, instead, be traced to the McCartan >>>> clan - >>>> and not the clan chiefs but, rather, their followers. >>>> Where the McCartans once lived is today the small hamlet of Guiness, a >>>> name >>>> derived from the Irish Gion Ais, meaning wedge-shaped ridge, thus >>>> explaining >>>> the roots of the surname. >>>> And, of course, as local researchers will tell you, there's a strong >>>> connection between the McCartans and the late French President Charles >>>> De >>>> Gaulle His great-grandmother was one Marie Angelique McCartan. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: >> 1/10/2008 >> 1:32 PM >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message