I know this may sound extremely dumb on my part but what vast differences were there in the two religions that would have made someone think they needed to have a second ceremony? Linda -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Cliff. Johnston" <moments-in-time@comcast.net> > It must have been very difficult for the Presbyterians as we have oral > family history that tells of our Johnston family being forced to become C of > I in Ireland, but when it came to baptisms, marriages, etc. they actually > went back to Scotland to have a second and Presbyterian ceremony performed. > When I first came across this story I was amazed and somewhat in disbelief; > however, when the story came from a distant second and a third source it > made a believer out of me. > > Cliff. Johnston > "May the best you've ever seen, > Be the worst you'll ever see;" > from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "B Marmion" <info@marmionfamilytree.com> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:15 PM > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co.,PA is based on > DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR > > > > THANK YOU HUGH! > > this marriage info answers quite alot of questions...did this practice > > continue into the early 1800's as well? > > > > Hugh Macartney <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> wrote: > > There are a lot of pitfalls in Irish names which were anglicised to a > > great > > extent. Dromore/Drumore/Drimore meant great ridge in Irish and there are > > about 24000 townland, towns and villages in Ireland which begin with > > variatins of drom, etc. There is the town of Dromore which is between > > Banbridge and Lisburn but also a townland in Warrenpoint with the same > > name. > > In the 18th.C there were large waves of emigration either due to crop > > failures, rack rents or to heavy taxes placed by England on Irish woollen > > goods. Another major factor was the Test Act which was used to place loyal > > Presbyterian on the same level of disability with the Roman Catholics. > > Presbyterian ministers were turned out of their pulpits or threatened. > > Since > > they no longer had official standing marriages they performed were not > > legal. Presbyterians had to choose between their office or their > > conscience. > > Presbyterian disenters could not teach school. The children of all > > Protestants not married in the Established Church were regarded as > > bastards > > and many Presbyterians were even prosecuted in the bishops' courts as > > fornicators for cohabiting with their own wives. This religious > > persecution > > was for many the last straw and people were easily persuaded to go to > > America. In 1717 crops were ruined by drought for the fourth year in a row > > and ships were charted, groups were organised and property sold. There > > were > > more waves of emigration in 1717-18, 1725-9, 1740-41, 1754-55 and 1771-75 > > from the North of Ireland. The result of this was that when the American > > Revolution began there were no more ardent people wishing to throw off > > England's yoke than the Ulster-Scot Presbyterians and these tough, hardy > > men > > formed at least a third of George Washington's army. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Mike Boyd" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:17 PM > > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co., PA is based on > > DROMORE,COUNTY DOWN, NIR > > > > > >> >From the Boyd list there was this little bit of information > >> > >> "Since they misspelled the name you may have missed this, but did you > >> know > >> that DRUMORE Township is based on DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR ?? > >> > >> Drumore Township is an original township in 1729. > >> > >> What's got Boyd implications is that you have three Donegal townships > >> (Raphoe, Donegal, Bart); one Derry township (Colerain); and one Down > >> township > >> (Dromore). > >> > >> I wonder who brought over the County Down place name. Do we have a Boyd > >> family near there in Ireland?" > >> > >> However, in 1729 Drumore would have been in Chester County, PA in eastern > >> PA > >> on the border with Maryland. > >> > >> Does anyone on this list know of this migration in 1729 of people from > >> Dromore? > >> > >> Save this weblink (especially if you deal with Lancaster County) and you > >> have my source: > >> _http://www.lancasterhistory.org/research/databases/townshipmap.html_ > >> (http://www.lancasterhistory.org/research/databases/townshipmap.html) > >> > >> > >> Mike Boyd > >> Brisbane > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > Brigitte > > brigitte@marmionfamilytree.com > > www.marmionfamilytree.com > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message
In message <021120082202.11120.47B0C6050006E6F300002B702205884484970A0 40401080604@comcast.net> ljholley@comcast.net (Linda Holley) wrote: Don't know if you saw Billy Connolly's tour of Ireland but he said that there was a brick wall in the ground dividing the protestants and catholics in the cemetery in Belfast. As he said 'What did they think they were going to do? And Chrisianity was the common religion! Bev > I know this may sound extremely dumb on my part but what vast > differences were there in the two religions that would have made > someone think they needed to have a second ceremony? > Linda > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "Cliff. Johnston" <moments-in-time@comcast.net> >> It must have been very difficult for the Presbyterians as we have oral >> family history that tells of our Johnston family being forced to become C of >> I in Ireland, but when it came to baptisms, marriages, etc. they actually >> went back to Scotland to have a second and Presbyterian ceremony performed. >> When I first came across this story I was amazed and somewhat in disbelief; >> however, when the story came from a distant second and a third source it >> made a believer out of me. >> >> Cliff. Johnston >> "May the best you've ever seen, >> Be the worst you'll ever see;" >> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "B Marmion" <info@marmionfamilytree.com> >> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:15 PM >> Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co.,PA is based on >> DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR >> >> >>> THANK YOU HUGH! >>> this marriage info answers quite alot of questions...did this practice >>> continue into the early 1800's as well? >>> >>> Hugh Macartney <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> wrote: >>> There are a lot of pitfalls in Irish names which were anglicised to a >>> great >>> extent. Dromore/Drumore/Drimore meant great ridge in Irish and there are >>> about 24000 townland, towns and villages in Ireland which begin with >>> variatins of drom, etc. There is the town of Dromore which is between >>> Banbridge and Lisburn but also a townland in Warrenpoint with the same >>> name. >>> In the 18th.C there were large waves of emigration either due to crop >>> failures, rack rents or to heavy taxes placed by England on Irish woollen >>> goods. Another major factor was the Test Act which was used to place loyal >>> Presbyterian on the same level of disability with the Roman Catholics. >>> Presbyterian ministers were turned out of their pulpits or threatened. >>> Since >>> they no longer had official standing marriages they performed were not >>> legal. Presbyterians had to choose between their office or their >>> conscience. >>> Presbyterian disenters could not teach school. The children of all >>> Protestants not married in the Established Church were regarded as >>> bastards >>> and many Presbyterians were even prosecuted in the bishops' courts as >>> fornicators for cohabiting with their own wives. This religious >>> persecution >>> was for many the last straw and people were easily persuaded to go to >>> America. In 1717 crops were ruined by drought for the fourth year in a row >>> and ships were charted, groups were organised and property sold. There >>> were >>> more waves of emigration in 1717-18, 1725-9, 1740-41, 1754-55 and 1771-75 >>> from the North of Ireland. The result of this was that when the American >>> Revolution began there were no more ardent people wishing to throw off >>> England's yoke than the Ulster-Scot Presbyterians and these tough, hardy >>> men >>> formed at least a third of George Washington's army. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Boyd" >>> To: >>> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:17 PM >>> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co., PA is based on >>> DROMORE,COUNTY DOWN, NIR >>> >>> >>>>>From the Boyd list there was this little bit of information >>>> >>>> "Since they misspelled the name you may have missed this, but did you >>>> know >>>> that DRUMORE Township is based on DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR ?? >>>> >>>> Drumore Township is an original township in 1729. >>>> >>>> What's got Boyd implications is that you have three Donegal townships >>>> (Raphoe, Donegal, Bart); one Derry township (Colerain); and one Down >>>> township >>>> (Dromore). >>>> >>>> I wonder who brought over the County Down place name. Do we have a Boyd >>>> family near there in Ireland?" >>>> >>>> However, in 1729 Drumore would have been in Chester County, PA in eastern >>>> PA >>>> on the border with Maryland. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list know of this migration in 1729 of people from >>>> Dromore? >>>> >>>> Save this weblink (especially if you deal with Lancaster County) and you >>>> have my source: >>>> _http://www.lancasterhistory.org/research/databases/townshipmap.html_ >>>> (http://www.lancasterhistory.org/research/databases/townshipmap.html) >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike Boyd >>>> Brisbane >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> Brigitte >>> brigitte@marmionfamilytree.com >>> www.marmionfamilytree.com >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in >> the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Bev McGuinness, Cinnamon Coloureds Farmstay, RMB 1017 DENMARK WA 6333 Tel: +61 8 9848 1781 Fax: +61 8 9848 1231 Web: http://www.denmarkwa.com.au/cc/
Yes, I've heard of that brick wall in the ground. The belief back then, and it may be true, was that there was a very slow, ground-water current, and the holier-than-thous didn't want to be contaminated by heretics even when dead... Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bev" <bev@denmarkwa.com.au> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co.,PA is based on DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR > In message <021120082202.11120.47B0C6050006E6F300002B702205884484970A0 > 40401080604@comcast.net> > ljholley@comcast.net (Linda Holley) wrote: > Don't know if you saw Billy Connolly's tour of Ireland but he said > that there was a brick wall in the ground dividing the protestants and > catholics in the cemetery in Belfast. As he said 'What did they think > they were going to do? And Chrisianity was the common religion! > Bev >> I know this may sound extremely dumb on my part but what vast >> differences were there in the two religions that would have made >> someone think they needed to have a second ceremony? > >> Linda > > >> -------------- Original message ---------------------- >> From: "Cliff. Johnston" <moments-in-time@comcast.net> >>> It must have been very difficult for the Presbyterians as we have oral >>> family history that tells of our Johnston family being forced to become >>> C of >>> I in Ireland, but when it came to baptisms, marriages, etc. they >>> actually >>> went back to Scotland to have a second and Presbyterian ceremony >>> performed. >>> When I first came across this story I was amazed and somewhat in >>> disbelief; >>> however, when the story came from a distant second and a third source it >>> made a believer out of me. >>> >>> Cliff. Johnston >>> "May the best you've ever seen, >>> Be the worst you'll ever see;" >>> from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "B Marmion" <info@marmionfamilytree.com> >>> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2008 1:15 PM >>> Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co.,PA is based on >>> DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR >>> >>> >>>> THANK YOU HUGH! >>>> this marriage info answers quite alot of questions...did this practice >>>> continue into the early 1800's as well? >>>> >>>> Hugh Macartney <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> wrote: >>>> There are a lot of pitfalls in Irish names which were anglicised to a >>>> great >>>> extent. Dromore/Drumore/Drimore meant great ridge in Irish and there >>>> are >>>> about 24000 townland, towns and villages in Ireland which begin with >>>> variatins of drom, etc. There is the town of Dromore which is between >>>> Banbridge and Lisburn but also a townland in Warrenpoint with the same >>>> name. >>>> In the 18th.C there were large waves of emigration either due to crop >>>> failures, rack rents or to heavy taxes placed by England on Irish >>>> woollen >>>> goods. Another major factor was the Test Act which was used to place >>>> loyal >>>> Presbyterian on the same level of disability with the Roman Catholics. >>>> Presbyterian ministers were turned out of their pulpits or threatened. >>>> Since >>>> they no longer had official standing marriages they performed were not >>>> legal. Presbyterians had to choose between their office or their >>>> conscience. >>>> Presbyterian disenters could not teach school. The children of all >>>> Protestants not married in the Established Church were regarded as >>>> bastards >>>> and many Presbyterians were even prosecuted in the bishops' courts as >>>> fornicators for cohabiting with their own wives. This religious >>>> persecution >>>> was for many the last straw and people were easily persuaded to go to >>>> America. In 1717 crops were ruined by drought for the fourth year in a >>>> row >>>> and ships were charted, groups were organised and property sold. There >>>> were >>>> more waves of emigration in 1717-18, 1725-9, 1740-41, 1754-55 and >>>> 1771-75 >>>> from the North of Ireland. The result of this was that when the >>>> American >>>> Revolution began there were no more ardent people wishing to throw off >>>> England's yoke than the Ulster-Scot Presbyterians and these tough, >>>> hardy >>>> men >>>> formed at least a third of George Washington's army. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Boyd" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2008 5:17 PM >>>> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co., PA is based on >>>> DROMORE,COUNTY DOWN, NIR >>>> >>>> >>>>>>From the Boyd list there was this little bit of information >>>>> >>>>> "Since they misspelled the name you may have missed this, but did you >>>>> know >>>>> that DRUMORE Township is based on DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR ?? >>>>> >>>>> Drumore Township is an original township in 1729. >>>>> >>>>> What's got Boyd implications is that you have three Donegal townships >>>>> (Raphoe, Donegal, Bart); one Derry township (Colerain); and one Down >>>>> township >>>>> (Dromore). >>>>> >>>>> I wonder who brought over the County Down place name. Do we have a >>>>> Boyd >>>>> family near there in Ireland?" >>>>> >>>>> However, in 1729 Drumore would have been in Chester County, PA in >>>>> eastern >>>>> PA >>>>> on the border with Maryland. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone on this list know of this migration in 1729 of people from >>>>> Dromore? >>>>> >>>>> Save this weblink (especially if you deal with Lancaster County) and >>>>> you >>>>> have my source: >>>>> _http://www.lancasterhistory.org/research/databases/townshipmap.html_ >>>>> (http://www.lancasterhistory.org/research/databases/townshipmap.html) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mike Boyd >>>>> Brisbane >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brigitte >>>> brigitte@marmionfamilytree.com >>>> www.marmionfamilytree.com >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in >>> the subject and the body of the message > > >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > -- > Bev McGuinness, > Cinnamon Coloureds Farmstay, RMB 1017 DENMARK WA 6333 > Tel: +61 8 9848 1781 Fax: +61 8 9848 1231 > Web: http://www.denmarkwa.com.au/cc/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Linda I think this started with Henry VIII of England wanting an heir. In the 1500's and 1600's in England and Scotland you had the conflict between Catholic and Protestant religions. In the later half of the 1600's in Scotland you have the "conflict" between the established Protestant church and the Covenanters where may died rather than change. Holding onto your Principals" In the early 1600 period - before the plantation of 1609 - there was conflict with some of the Irish Earl's. I am not sure if between themselves or with the English. (I assume someone will tell us the correct situation). As a result of this conflict in 1600-1606 many people in Ulster had no housing and crops to live on. I think it was in the Montgomery Manuscripts, where it said that in 1607, there were only 30 houses fit to live in between Newtownards and Donaghadee. The result of this conflict and the Plantation that followed in 1609 caused the 1641 uprising by Catholics in Ireland. Last year I saw a figure that some 150,000 protestants were killed - I think in Ulster. I can't recall if this source said how many Catholics but I assume a smaller number. Then in 1642 you had the Scottish Protestant Army came to "restore" order. I am not sure how many Catholic were killed as a result of that restoration of Order. Then in the 1640's there was the Puritan Cromwell came to Ireland. I have an table somewhere of the Population of Ireland in this period. For memory the Irish population in 1641 was about 1.1 million people. It did not reach that level again until the early 1700's. I think it was said that his Army killed about a third of the population - most of these would have been Catholic in religion. Then you have the conflict of 1689-90 between King James and King William over religion. I am not sure how may were killed in this but in Londonderry City they said that some 10,000 died during the Siege. It make the "troubles" of the last 30 years look like peace - only 3,000 people were killed. That gives you a very brief outline of why the conflict between religions. Many were prepare to die for their beliefs (and did not want to be told by "ruler" what religion they could or could not follow). Hope that this help to explain it - rather poorly. Mike Boyd Brisbane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Linda Holley" <ljholley@comcast.net> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2008 8:02 AM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] DRUMORE Townshpi, Lancaster Co.,PA is based on DROMORE, COUNTY DOWN, NIR >I know this may sound extremely dumb on my part but what vast differences >were there in the two religions that would have made someone think they >needed to have a second ceremony? > > Linda >