Thanks for that and the link David. Nan On Jan 13, 2008, at 5:03 AM, dmmon.messageboards@ntlworld.com wrote: > On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 10:45:20 -0000, you wrote: > >> If you are lucky, you can buy a photocopy of these documents which >> may >> answer your question. Send an email to PRONI with all the >> details, and if >> the documents still exist they will photocopy them for a small fee >> and post > > > Looks like the fee is £5.35 according to > <http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/about_proni/ > are_there_any_fees_and_charges.htm> > > David > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks very much Rosemary. Did photocopies of Letters give substantially more info than in the index? Nan On Jan 13, 2008, at 4:45 AM, Rosemary Joan McCormack wrote: > If you are lucky, you can buy a photocopy of these documents which may > answer your question. Send an email to PRONI with all the details, > and if > the documents still exist they will photocopy them for a small fee > and post > them to you. I have done this myself, with some success. > RosemaryJoan > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nan Brennan" <nan.brennan@mindspring.com> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:38 AM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Hugh McEvoy will 3/7/1887 > > >> WILLS INDEX >> Hugh McEvoy Death 3/7/1887 >> Grant 3/3/1892 >> >> Letters of Administration of the personal estate of Hugh M'Evoy late >> of Ballymagrahan County Down Labourer who died 3 July 1887 at Concord >> Massachusetts U.S. America were granted at Belfast to Catherine >> M'Evoy of Ballymagrahan Spinster a Sister >> >> >> QUESTION >> >> Is this the HUGH MCEVOY born March 20 1865 to JAMES MCEVOY & MARY >> KING of BALLYMAGREEHAN. >> They had a son Hugh born 1866 and daugher Catherine born Apr 24, >> 1867. >> James and Mary were married Jan 23, 1859 >> >> Any help appreciated. >> >> Nan >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Too true! I've found loads of my people and in some cases it gives clues to other members of the family. It's really great. Claire www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Irishcolleen45@aol.com Sent: 13 January 2008 01:23 To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] Resource at PRONI Just want to make a comment about wills. My great grandmother, Rose McManus Grant, had a will when she died in 1903 in Drumboniff townland Clonduff Civil Parish. I was surprised because she did not have much except for the land. She left the land to my grandfather, John Grant, and some money to one daughter, in Pittsburgh. My brother had found the will back in the '70's. My point is even if you think your ancestor was too poor for a will, check it out anyway. You never know what you'll find. Nora Hopkins FitzGerald GRANT/MCMANUS/MORGAN/WOODS Clonduff CP, Stang and Drumboniff townlands in County Down

WILLS INDEX Hugh McEvoy Death 3/7/1887 Grant 3/3/1892 Letters of Administration of the personal estate of Hugh M'Evoy late of Ballymagrahan County Down Labourer who died 3 July 1887 at Concord Massachusetts U.S. America were granted at Belfast to Catherine M'Evoy of Ballymagrahan Spinster a Sister QUESTION Is this the HUGH MCEVOY born March 20 1865 to JAMES MCEVOY & MARY KING of BALLYMAGREEHAN. They had a son Hugh born 1866 and daugher Catherine born Apr 24, 1867. James and Mary were married Jan 23, 1859 Any help appreciated. Nan

Nan, Neither did I! These are BRILLIANT! Sorry for shouting, haha, but some of the information that can be had here could turn out to be like golddust for someone. Claire www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nan Brennan Sent: 12 January 2008 23:09 To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] Resource at PRONI Thank you, Claire! I didn't know this was online. Nan

The link below was posted on the Fermanagh list so I thought I'd post it here too. http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars/wills_searc h.htm Great resource for death and will info! I think I'm going to be up all night looking through. Claire McConville www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk

I have updated my England 1891 Census Co.Down Strays pages. These can be reached quickly via the 'latest updates' link. They will be picked up by my site search facility later this evening. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~meaneypj/index.htm Happy hunting, Pete. mailto:Peterjmeaney@ntlworld.com

Just want to make a comment about wills. My great grandmother, Rose McManus Grant, had a will when she died in 1903 in Drumboniff townland Clonduff Civil Parish. I was surprised because she did not have much except for the land. She left the land to my grandfather, John Grant, and some money to one daughter, in Pittsburgh. My brother had found the will back in the '70's. My point is even if you think your ancestor was too poor for a will, check it out anyway. You never know what you'll find. Nora Hopkins FitzGerald GRANT/MCMANUS/MORGAN/WOODS Clonduff CP, Stang and Drumboniff townlands in County Down In a message dated 1/12/2008 7:24:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, _clairybums@dsl.pipex.com_ (mailto:clairybums@dsl.pipex.com) writes: The link below was posted on the Fermanagh list so I thought I'd post it here too. http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars/wills_searc h.htm Great resource for death and will info! I think I'm going to be up all night looking through. Claire McConville **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

Thanks, and also for the info ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nan Brennan" <nan.brennan@mindspring.com> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] New collection at Linen Hall Library http://www.linenhall.com/ Thanks Wendy, meant to include that. Nan On Jan 12, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Robt & Wendy Stevenson wrote: > Hi Nan, > Is there a website for the Library? > Wendy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nan Brennan" <nan.brennan@mindspring.com> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 6:02 PM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] New collection at Linen Hall Library > > > THE IRISH NEWS > Documents donated to city library > > By Rebecca Black > 12/01/08 > A remarkable collection of documents relating to the Belfast brigade > of the National Volunteers was donated to the Linen Hall Library this > week – including a letter dated 1919 from The Irish News to the group. > The National Volunteers were part of the Irish Volunteers that had > sided with Irish Parliamentary Party leader John Redmond after the > group split in the wake of the question of whether or not the > volunteers’ should fight for Britain in the First World War. > The collection comprises six pieces including a regimental order > book, a letter head, cash book, register of members and even a > decommissioning receipt from the Royal Irish Rifles all dating from > 1914 to 1919. > A letter from The Irish News, dated March 11 1919 – when the group > disarmed and probably disbanded – thanked the organisation for the > advertising placed in the paper. > The documents were donated by Belfast man Joseph McCann whose father > had been a member of the National Volunteers. > John Killen from the Linen Hall Library said the collection would be > invaluable for research, particularly coming up to the 100th > anniversary of the Easter Rising. > “This is an interesting collection referring to a little known period > of Belfast history,” he said. > “We are fortunate in that we are in receipt of quite important > donations. > “A year or two ago, we received a fascinating donation from the > relative of a young Belfast man who had gone down to Dublin to enlist > in the British army to fight in France but been caught up in the > Easter Rising. > “He kept a daily diary of what had happened which was absolutely > fascinating,” he said. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Clare: I found 4 of mine. I have numbers to search with now. Thanks for the website. Brenda Brampton > > >>The link below was posted on the Fermanagh list so I thought I'd >>post it >>here too. >> >> >> >>http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars/ >>wills_searc >>h.htm >> >> >> >>Great resource for death and will info! I think I'm going to be up >>all night >>looking through. >> >> >> >>Claire McConville >> >> >> >>www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- >>request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Hi Nan, Is there a website for the Library? Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nan Brennan" <nan.brennan@mindspring.com> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: [NIR-DOWN] New collection at Linen Hall Library THE IRISH NEWS Documents donated to city library By Rebecca Black 12/01/08 A remarkable collection of documents relating to the Belfast brigade of the National Volunteers was donated to the Linen Hall Library this week – including a letter dated 1919 from The Irish News to the group. The National Volunteers were part of the Irish Volunteers that had sided with Irish Parliamentary Party leader John Redmond after the group split in the wake of the question of whether or not the volunteers’ should fight for Britain in the First World War. The collection comprises six pieces including a regimental order book, a letter head, cash book, register of members and even a decommissioning receipt from the Royal Irish Rifles all dating from 1914 to 1919. A letter from The Irish News, dated March 11 1919 – when the group disarmed and probably disbanded – thanked the organisation for the advertising placed in the paper. The documents were donated by Belfast man Joseph McCann whose father had been a member of the National Volunteers. John Killen from the Linen Hall Library said the collection would be invaluable for research, particularly coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising. “This is an interesting collection referring to a little known period of Belfast history,” he said. “We are fortunate in that we are in receipt of quite important donations. “A year or two ago, we received a fascinating donation from the relative of a young Belfast man who had gone down to Dublin to enlist in the British army to fight in France but been caught up in the Easter Rising. “He kept a daily diary of what had happened which was absolutely fascinating,” he said. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

http://www.linenhall.com/ Thanks Wendy, meant to include that. Nan On Jan 12, 2008, at 6:15 PM, Robt & Wendy Stevenson wrote: > Hi Nan, > Is there a website for the Library? > Wendy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nan Brennan" <nan.brennan@mindspring.com> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 6:02 PM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] New collection at Linen Hall Library > > > THE IRISH NEWS > Documents donated to city library > > By Rebecca Black > 12/01/08 > A remarkable collection of documents relating to the Belfast brigade > of the National Volunteers was donated to the Linen Hall Library this > week – including a letter dated 1919 from The Irish News to the group. > The National Volunteers were part of the Irish Volunteers that had > sided with Irish Parliamentary Party leader John Redmond after the > group split in the wake of the question of whether or not the > volunteers’ should fight for Britain in the First World War. > The collection comprises six pieces including a regimental order > book, a letter head, cash book, register of members and even a > decommissioning receipt from the Royal Irish Rifles all dating from > 1914 to 1919. > A letter from The Irish News, dated March 11 1919 – when the group > disarmed and probably disbanded – thanked the organisation for the > advertising placed in the paper. > The documents were donated by Belfast man Joseph McCann whose father > had been a member of the National Volunteers. > John Killen from the Linen Hall Library said the collection would be > invaluable for research, particularly coming up to the 100th > anniversary of the Easter Rising. > “This is an interesting collection referring to a little known period > of Belfast history,” he said. > “We are fortunate in that we are in receipt of quite important > donations. > “A year or two ago, we received a fascinating donation from the > relative of a young Belfast man who had gone down to Dublin to enlist > in the British army to fight in France but been caught up in the > Easter Rising. > “He kept a daily diary of what had happened which was absolutely > fascinating,” he said. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Claire! I didn't know this was online. Nan On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:55 PM, Claire McConville wrote: > The link below was posted on the Fermanagh list so I thought I'd > post it > here too. > > > > http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/will_calendars/ > wills_searc > h.htm > > > > Great resource for death and will info! I think I'm going to be up > all night > looking through. > > > > Claire McConville > > > > www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

THE IRISH NEWS Documents donated to city library By Rebecca Black 12/01/08 A remarkable collection of documents relating to the Belfast brigade of the National Volunteers was donated to the Linen Hall Library this week – including a letter dated 1919 from The Irish News to the group. The National Volunteers were part of the Irish Volunteers that had sided with Irish Parliamentary Party leader John Redmond after the group split in the wake of the question of whether or not the volunteers’ should fight for Britain in the First World War. The collection comprises six pieces including a regimental order book, a letter head, cash book, register of members and even a decommissioning receipt from the Royal Irish Rifles all dating from 1914 to 1919. A letter from The Irish News, dated March 11 1919 – when the group disarmed and probably disbanded – thanked the organisation for the advertising placed in the paper. The documents were donated by Belfast man Joseph McCann whose father had been a member of the National Volunteers. John Killen from the Linen Hall Library said the collection would be invaluable for research, particularly coming up to the 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising. “This is an interesting collection referring to a little known period of Belfast history,” he said. “We are fortunate in that we are in receipt of quite important donations. “A year or two ago, we received a fascinating donation from the relative of a young Belfast man who had gone down to Dublin to enlist in the British army to fight in France but been caught up in the Easter Rising. “He kept a daily diary of what had happened which was absolutely fascinating,” he said.

Peter Hope you are following up the lead I mentioned, ror Bernard, some week's ago. You will be astonished at what you will find there. Sean -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter McGuinness Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 5:47 AM To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty The McGuinness crest I have shows a Lion and a BOAR, rather than a bear. Maybe an excusable mistake. Peter Fiona Jones wrote: > Thanks Hugh......I should clarify....this was from the "Man About Town" at > the Mourne Observer...I didn't write it. Perhaps you should send your piece > to the MO in response to the MAT. I have his email address if you need it. > > CHEERS!!!!!! > > Fiona. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Hugh Macartney > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 2:35 PM > To: nir-down@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > > There is another explanation for the name MacGuinness and that is it derives > > from the Irish MacAonghasa from the personal name Aongas (Angus) made up of > aon (one) and gus (choice). It is said to be the name of a famous Pictish > king of Scotland, supposedly the son of the Irish God Daghda and Boinn, the > goddess who gave her name to the River Boyne. My Irish is a bit rusty but I > > don't recognise Gion Ais. A ridge in Irish is drum/drom drimm. The > MacGuinnesses displaced the O'Haugheys in the 12th. C. and ruled over the > region until the 17th.C. Kinelarty derives from Cinel Arty (territory of the > > (Mac) Artans who with the Macgennis clan shared the territory. Artan is said > > to come from the Celtic or perhaps Pictish word "art/artois" meaning bear. > The Macartneys of Scotland and later Ulster likely were originally MacArtans > > to went to Scotland as raiders or settlers and stayed there, the name > gradually changing to McCartney/Macartney and variant spellings. The > distance from the County Down coast to Scotland is only around 20 miles - an > > easy day's sail. The idea that the Mac/McArtneys were derived from the > McCarthys of Munster is very unlikely to be true. The Guinness crest I have > seen has a lion and a red hand but no bear. Many thanks Fiona for an > interesting story and I'll drink a creamy pint to Arthur not caring if he > was entitled to his crest or no. A large number of crests and coats of arms > are purely fictional creations of the Victorian and earlier eras anyway. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fiona Jones" <mourneminers@optonline.net> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:00 AM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > > > >> Story below from the Man About Town (Mourne Observer Newspaper) >> http://www.mourneobserver.com/Man%20about%20town.htm >> >> Fiona. >> >> IGP Co. Down Coordinator >> >> http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ >> >> ============ >> >> Guinness and the Guiness connection >> >> IT seems DNA research has now linked the great Guinness brewing dynasty to >> the McCartan clan of Kinelarty in rural Down, rather than, has been >> previously claimed, the high-born Magennis chieftains of Iveagh. >> Newspaper reports on the discovery - contained in a new biography, >> "Arthur's >> Round: The Life and Times of Brewing Legend Arthur Guinness" - have been >> accompanied by such expressions as "ancestral pretensions," "an act of >> social climbing," and "humble background." >> For hundreds of years it has been assumed that brewery founder Arthur >> Guinness was a descendant of the Iveagh chieftains. Indeed, when he >> married >> in 1761 he engraved a silver cup with the armorial bearings of the >> Magennises - a lion, with the red hand of Ulster and a bear. >> DNA test carried out at Trinity College Dublin at the behest of the family >> show the male Y-chromosomes can, instead, be traced to the McCartan clan - >> and not the clan chiefs but, rather, their followers. >> Where the McCartans once lived is today the small hamlet of Guiness, a >> name >> derived from the Irish Gion Ais, meaning wedge-shaped ridge, thus >> explaining >> the roots of the surname. >> And, of course, as local researchers will tell you, there's a strong >> connection between the McCartans and the late French President Charles De >> Gaulle His great-grandmother was one Marie Angelique McCartan. >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: 1/10/2008 1:32 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: 1/10/2008 1:32 PM

Well-known charity fundraiser dies on holiday (The Irish News) By Marie Louise McCrory 12/01/08 A well-known Co Down man has died suddenly while on a family holiday in Spain. Peter Magee, from Burren in Warrenpoint, died in hospital in Torrevieja near Alicante on the evening of Thursday January 3. The remains of the 83-year-old, who was well-known for his charity fundraising efforts, have now been flown home to Ireland. Mr Magee, who had been pre-deceased by his wife Mena, helped raise funds for a number of charities, among them The Diocesan House of Prayer in Essex. The prayer house was set up by his friend, Sister Annie McAvoy, in Abbotswick, Brentwood and Mr Magee organised events to help raise money for the initiative. SDLP assembly member PJ Bradley, a neighbour and friend, said Mr Magee had enjoyed life to the full and that he would be sadly missed. Requiem Mass will be celebrated at 12 noon today in St Mary’s Church, Burren.

If anyone would like to support their comments with an illustration you can email them to me and I'll put them on the IGP-Down site so we can all take a look. Fiona. IGP Co. Down Coordinator http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Hugh Macartney Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 2:25 PM To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty Not so. Look at the crests of the O'Brians, O'Rourkes, O'Reillys, O'Neills, O'Mearas, Kinsellas, Keoghs, Heffernans, Dillons, etc., etc. See: Irish Family Names, arms & origins by Brian de Breffney. Clans and Families of Ireland by John Grenham. Irish Family Histories by Ida Grehan. As many Irish families had close connections with the Anglo-Normans the rampant lion may be of Norman origin. Before the Norman invasion there likely were no family arms as such and many of the ones depicted today on all sorts of tourist items and depicted by Internet merchants are of comparatively recent or even fictional origin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Donal O'Kelly" <ocollaugh@comcast.net> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:48 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > Perhaps a figment of imagination, but I have looked up hundreds of COA, > pennants and flags, and it seems to me that the lion is more associated > with > Britain, while the boar is more associated with Wales. The COA I found for > the Owen line in Wales and North Ireland both have a boar on them. > > donkelly > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Peter McGuinness" <pmcguinness@sbcglobal.net> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 9:47 PM > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > > >> The McGuinness crest I have shows a Lion and a BOAR, rather than a bear. >> Maybe an excusable mistake. >> Peter >> >> Fiona Jones wrote: >>> Thanks Hugh......I should clarify....this was from the "Man About Town" >>> at >>> the Mourne Observer...I didn't write it. Perhaps you should send your >>> piece >>> to the MO in response to the MAT. I have his email address if you need >>> it. >>> >>> CHEERS!!!!!! >>> >>> Fiona. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] >>> On Behalf Of Hugh Macartney >>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 2:35 PM >>> To: nir-down@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty >>> >>> There is another explanation for the name MacGuinness and that is it >>> derives >>> >>> from the Irish MacAonghasa from the personal name Aongas (Angus) made up >>> of >>> aon (one) and gus (choice). It is said to be the name of a famous >>> Pictish >>> king of Scotland, supposedly the son of the Irish God Daghda and Boinn, >>> the >>> goddess who gave her name to the River Boyne. My Irish is a bit rusty >>> but I >>> >>> don't recognise Gion Ais. A ridge in Irish is drum/drom drimm. The >>> MacGuinnesses displaced the O'Haugheys in the 12th. C. and ruled over >>> the >>> region until the 17th.C. Kinelarty derives from Cinel Arty (territory of >>> the >>> >>> (Mac) Artans who with the Macgennis clan shared the territory. Artan is >>> said >>> >>> to come from the Celtic or perhaps Pictish word "art/artois" meaning >>> bear. >>> The Macartneys of Scotland and later Ulster likely were originally >>> MacArtans >>> >>> to went to Scotland as raiders or settlers and stayed there, the name >>> gradually changing to McCartney/Macartney and variant spellings. The >>> distance from the County Down coast to Scotland is only around 20 >>> miles - >>> an >>> >>> easy day's sail. The idea that the Mac/McArtneys were derived from the >>> McCarthys of Munster is very unlikely to be true. The Guinness crest I >>> have >>> seen has a lion and a red hand but no bear. Many thanks Fiona for an >>> interesting story and I'll drink a creamy pint to Arthur not caring if >>> he >>> was entitled to his crest or no. A large number of crests and coats of >>> arms >>> are purely fictional creations of the Victorian and earlier eras anyway. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Fiona Jones" <mourneminers@optonline.net> >>> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 6:00 AM >>> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty >>> >>> >>> >>>> Story below from the Man About Town (Mourne Observer Newspaper) >>>> http://www.mourneobserver.com/Man%20about%20town.htm >>>> >>>> Fiona. >>>> >>>> IGP Co. Down Coordinator >>>> >>>> http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ >>>> >>>> ============ >>>> >>>> Guinness and the Guiness connection >>>> >>>> IT seems DNA research has now linked the great Guinness brewing dynasty >>>> to >>>> the McCartan clan of Kinelarty in rural Down, rather than, has been >>>> previously claimed, the high-born Magennis chieftains of Iveagh. >>>> Newspaper reports on the discovery - contained in a new biography, >>>> "Arthur's >>>> Round: The Life and Times of Brewing Legend Arthur Guinness" - have >>>> been >>>> accompanied by such expressions as "ancestral pretensions," "an act of >>>> social climbing," and "humble background." >>>> For hundreds of years it has been assumed that brewery founder Arthur >>>> Guinness was a descendant of the Iveagh chieftains. Indeed, when he >>>> married >>>> in 1761 he engraved a silver cup with the armorial bearings of the >>>> Magennises - a lion, with the red hand of Ulster and a bear. >>>> DNA test carried out at Trinity College Dublin at the behest of the >>>> family >>>> show the male Y-chromosomes can, instead, be traced to the McCartan >>>> clan - >>>> and not the clan chiefs but, rather, their followers. >>>> Where the McCartans once lived is today the small hamlet of Guiness, a >>>> name >>>> derived from the Irish Gion Ais, meaning wedge-shaped ridge, thus >>>> explaining >>>> the roots of the surname. >>>> And, of course, as local researchers will tell you, there's a strong >>>> connection between the McCartans and the late French President Charles >>>> De >>>> Gaulle His great-grandmother was one Marie Angelique McCartan. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.0/1218 - Release Date: >> 1/10/2008 >> 1:32 PM >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In May 1850, my wife's great-grandfather, Thomas SHIMMONS arrived in Moreton Bay (now Queensland) as an 'Exile' from the UK. He was born in Co. Down in 1830, but he and his family arrived in Ayrshire, Scotland around 1835. The 1841 UK Census shows him aged 10, together with siblings and parents, Thomas (shown as '40') and Elizabeth (shown as '35') residing at Back Lane, Kilmarnock, Ayrshire. The 1851 Census shows only his older brother, Hugh, resident in Kilmarnock; so presumably the family moved back to Co.Down prior to that date. My research so far has only found references to a 'Thomas SHIMON', at Ballygally, Parish of Inch in Griffith's Valuation and a 'Thomas SHIMINON', Drumee, Parish of Maghera, Co.Down in the Tithe Applotment Books of 1831. I would be pleased to have contact with anyone interested in this family who might be able to shed more light on the SHIMMONS family and their birthplace in Down. Kind regards, Garth Elvery, KFHS #1907, QFHS #2213, The ELVERY Worldwide One Name Study Convenor - QFHS FTM Users' Group, Brisbane

Thank you so much for the information! I have a map of N. Ireland but I now realize that it is not detailed enough. Linda -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Hugh Macartney <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> > I think you need to buy a good map of N.Ireland, Bartholo,ews for example. > This will give details of all six counties. Google will help by giving you > the nearest town. I went through all Griffith's Valuations for Co. Antrim > 1861-2 to find every Burnside listed. To go further back you would have to > go through the Tithe Aplotments for each place I have listed to get > information for the early 1830's. Any Mormon library could get them. > GRIFFITH"S VALUATIONS COUNTY ANTRIM 1861-2 Parishes and townlands > Burnside listings. > Ballymoney, Alex., Seacon Lower > James, Drumnahisky > Drumnamaul, Hugh, Groggan > Ballyscullion, James, Taylorstown > Loughguile, William, Ballybreagagh > Belfast/Shankill, James, Dock Townparks, George's St. > John, Smithfield T.P., Boundary St. > Robert, St. George's T.P., Baker St. > The Belfast Burnsides may have migrated there from some other Co. Antrim > Parish. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Linda Holley" <ljholley@comcast.net> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 1:56 PM > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] Burnside FAMILY > > > > Hugh, > > > > Thank you for the reply! Would you mind telling me where Newry and Drumbo > > are located, hopefully they are near Co. Antrim where Robert said he was > > born. Do you happen to know where the Burnside name was found in Antrim? > > I keep thinking someone may have done research before 1922 and their > > material is deposited somewhere. I am coming there in the summer and a > > kind person from another list has offered to help me look at PRONI. I am > > trying to collect every tiny bit I can before I get there. > > > > Upon rereading my original email I see I made a hugh mistake - my Robert > > reported on his naturlization papers he was born in Co. Antrim and 2 of > > his sons said they were born in Co. Down. I apologize for the mistake. I > > had one eye dilated this morning and I can barely see straight. > > > > Linda > > > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: Hugh Macartney <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> > >> In County Down the name Burnside was principally found in Newry and > >> Drumbo. > >> Most of the early Irish records were destroyed in 1922 so the early > >> families > >> might be difficult to trace. I would suggest you look at the > >> International > >> Genealogical Index (IGI) for Ireland in your nearest Mormon library and > >> see > >> if any show up. The 1843 Belfast directory listed only one Burnside - > >> Thomas, a bricklayer. Likely he came there from somewhere else. The name > >> can > >> be either English or Scottish. A Burnside was an American senator in the > >> 19th.C. > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Linda Holley" <ljholley@comcast.net> > >> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 11:18 AM > >> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Burnside FAMILY > >> > >> > >> > Thought I would post info again about my Burnside family is case > >> > someone > >> > was new to the list that might have information about this family. My > >> > gggggrandfather was Robert Burnside - born abt.1760 who immigrated to > >> > American in 1817. He reported on his naturalization paper he was born > >> > in > >> > Co. Down and 2 of his sons reported in the 1860 census of PA that they > >> > were born in Co. Down. > >> > > >> > Robert's sons were, Willaim, Samuel - born about 1790, Alexander, > >> > John/James, and Robert. > >> > > >> > Thank you, Linda Holley > >> > > >> > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > >> > From: Roxanne Neel <roxanne4mastiffs@verizon.net> > >> >> Thank You Fiona! I will put these in a safe place ;-) > >> >> Best Regards, > >> >> Roxanne > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Fiona Jones wrote: > >> >> > >> >> >Hi Roxanne - the site address is: > >> >> > > >> >> >http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ > >> >> >and the BRICKWALL page is at: > >> >> > > >> >> >http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/brickwall.htm > >> >> > > >> >> >Fiona. > >> >> >IGP Co. Down Coordinator > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >-----Original Message----- > >> >> >From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com > >> >> >[mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] > >> >> >On Behalf Of Roxanne Neel > >> >> >Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2008 1:20 PM > >> >> >To: nir-down@rootsweb.com > >> >> >Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Fiona's Website [Brickwall section] > >> >> > > >> >> >Hi Fiona, > >> >> >What is the address to your website that includes Brickwalls? Sorry, > >> >> >but I've misplaced it :-/ > >> >> >Many Thanks, > >> >> >Roxanne > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> >> quotes in > >> >> the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >> quotes in > >> the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Heraldry: History of: Before 1150 AD only nobility displayed Armorial Bearings. Gradually the practice spread downwards to feudal society and the Mediaeval Crusades. Later in history, Heralds traveled around the country collecting family history and designs of the symbols they used. What they recorded was later used to authorize and family uses of the symbols. These symbols were earlier used in Europe, probably by the Normans as well, but that is another history. donkelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Macartney" <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 11:24 AM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] GUINNESS and the McCartan clan of Kinelarty > Not so. Look at the crests of the O'Brians, O'Rourkes, O'Reillys, > O'Neills, > O'Mearas, Kinsellas, Keoghs, Heffernans, Dillons, etc., etc. > See: > Irish Family Names, arms & origins by Brian de Breffney. > Clans and Families of Ireland by John Grenham. > Irish Family Histories by Ida Grehan. > As many Irish families had close connections with the Anglo-Normans the > rampant lion may be of Norman origin. Before the Norman invasion there > likely were no family arms as such and many of the ones depicted today on > all sorts of tourist items and depicted by Internet merchants are of > comparatively recent or even fictional origin.