Hello, Why would some wills take so long to prove? Forename: Daniel Surname: Rodgers Date Of Death: 31/10/1903 Date Of Grant: 20/11/1916 Effects: Effects £40 Registry: Belfast Full Abstract: Administration of the Estate of Daniel Rodgers late of Ballyveaghmore County Down Farmer who died 31 October 1903 granted at Belfast to James Rodgers Fisherman. ============= Fiona.

I do think the general consensus was that 'full age' was taken to mean at least 21. Obviously we know there were those who married before that age so my own advice to anyone would be to keep an open mind, as with any research in Ireland, whether it be name/place spelling or anything else. There are some cases, when we cannot get the official proof, where we may just never know something for sure. For myself, I will continue to take 'full age' as 21 or over and if I find out different then it's a bonus. So many different scenarios to take into consideration I think would scramble my brain otherwise. Claire www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Peter McGuinness Sent: 15 January 2008 07:30 To: michael.lightfoot@canb.auug.org.au; nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] James CROSKERY and Margaret SLOAN Not really. I was responding to the proposition that an 18 and a 16 year old would need to falsify their ages to be married. This is certainly not the case, as long as consent was available, and among ordinary folk, it would be readily so. Look at the records: 16 year old brides are common. The utility of Gretna Green was strictly limited to society flibbertigibbets (think Paris Hilton or Britney Spears) where there was a need to escape parental control; you have to take into account that no society marriage was possible for anyone without consent no matter what the ages of the participants. Ordinary folk had no need of such shenanigans, or access to them, in fact. I don't think we have seen a good definition of "full age" - I certainly don't think I have seen one. The nearest we have is a kind of a feeling that it might be the age where children throw off the governance of their parents. I am sure someone here can provide the definitive information we need, and so I turn it over to the collective knowledge of the list. What do you say? Peter Michael Lightfoot wrote: > Peter McGuinness wrote: > >> No subterfuge required: marriage at 16 was, and is, legal in England >> with parental consent. In all the English census returns, the marital >> status is left blank unless the individual is 16 or over, after which it >> is completed; the assumption being that anyone under 16 is automatically >> single but after that you need to specify. >> I have a feeling the parish priest would usually need no proof of age - >> he would already know! >> >> > But you have missed the point. "Of full age" meant parental permission > was NOT required. The fact that Patricia's marriage cert says that, yet > they weren't over 21 would be prima facie evidence that they DIDN'T have > parental permission. It certainly happened. I have several cases in my > parish record transcriptions where the same situation applied. > > And then there was Gretna Green... > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Not quite sure how the Landowner gave out the leases to the Undertakers. I know with Colonel David Boyd who was a natural son of the 5th Lord Boyd, that he got 1,000 acres on the Ards Peninsular in which townland were named but I have not had time to read my CD on the Montgomery Manuscripts. I can only assume that some fee was paid or rent. I know that Viscount Montgomery had some standing army of about 1,000 men so part of his fee may have been to run this for Viscount Montgomery. So other Undertakers may have done other tasks to rebuilding that part of County Down. Colonel David Boyd came form Tourgill which is about 6 kms NE of Largs. Will Viscount Montgomery also came form north Ayrshire, so one can only assume that they both knew each other in Ayrshire before coming to County Down. Mike Boyd Brisbane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Guler" <mlmguler@yahoo.com> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > Thanks, Mike. So could one assume that if one were an undertaker leasor > of several hundred acres, one had the means to acquire such a lease,, or > at least had some means and some favor with the nobility holding the land? > l would think that if one came over from Scotland at that time, that they > would have had to have been of some means at the time they came...... > > I have just placed a purchase order for the first two books previously > referenced, written by David Dobson, in the hopes of finding information > about Russell ancestors listed. > > Your insight is greatly appreciated. > Mary > > Mike Boyd <mikejboyd@bigpond.com> wrote: > Mary > My lay understanding is that you could and often did have four levels of > for > land occupation. > > After 1609 you had the noblity being given large area of land. > They in turn leased to Undertakers area of several hundred acres > Who in term had tennant farmers > They may have even subtennants > > Then in the early 1900 under a British Act of Parliament, these land > owners > had to sell the land to their tennants. I do not know what the conditions > where, but I think it had to do with those who had been in long term > rents. > > Hopefully that will give you an idea > > Mike boyd > Brisbane > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Guler" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:39 AM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > > >> Is there anyone who can help me understand about land ownership post >> Battle of the Boyne (and even into today) in County Down? >> >> My family, Russell, seemed to have land that was part of the Kilmorey >> estate, which they rented out to others. Some (?all) of that land is >> still in the hands of family members. How did they come to be in >> possession of the land? Was it purchased from the Kilmorey Estate? Was >> it a gift? Why is it still referred to as Kilmorey Estate? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> Mary >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > --------------------------------- > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Mary My lay understanding is that you could and often did have four levels of for land occupation. After 1609 you had the noblity being given large area of land. They in turn leased to Undertakers area of several hundred acres Who in term had tennant farmers They may have even subtennants Then in the early 1900 under a British Act of Parliament, these land owners had to sell the land to their tennants. I do not know what the conditions where, but I think it had to do with those who had been in long term rents. Hopefully that will give you an idea Mike boyd Brisbane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Guler" <mlmguler@yahoo.com> To: <NIR-DOWN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:39 AM Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > Is there anyone who can help me understand about land ownership post > Battle of the Boyne (and even into today) in County Down? > > My family, Russell, seemed to have land that was part of the Kilmorey > estate, which they rented out to others. Some (?all) of that land is > still in the hands of family members. How did they come to be in > possession of the land? Was it purchased from the Kilmorey Estate? Was > it a gift? Why is it still referred to as Kilmorey Estate? > > Thanks in advance! > Mary > > > --------------------------------- > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! > Search. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Some of the Dobson books are:- Scottish-American Wills, 1650-1900, David Dobson Scots in New England, 1623-1873, David Dobson, 2002 There are several other titles he has published as well. Mike Boyd Brisbane ----- Original Message ----- From: <paulswell@tiscali.co.uk> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:12 AM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request -David Dobson books > > Hello Mike, > I am a Kennedy,my GrandFather's family are from the Co Down, and I > have recently begun a search for information about my Kennedy > family. I had not heard of Dobson's books but I will see what > information I can find and will let you know if I have any luck,

Date of death does not necessarily coincide with the date of filing the will for probate. No action to "prove" the will is taken in the probate court until Letters Testamentary or Letters of Administration have been filed and notice given to all heirs. In other words, Daniel may have died in October 1903, but the Will may not have been admitted to Probate till some time much later. On Jan 15, 2008, at 6:38 AM, Fiona Jones wrote: > Hello, > > > > Why would some wills take so long to prove? > > > > Forename: Daniel Surname: Rodgers Date Of Death: > 31/10/1903 Date > Of Grant: 20/11/1916 > > Effects: Effects £40 Registry: Belfast > > Full Abstract: > > Administration of the Estate of Daniel Rodgers late of > Ballyveaghmore County > Down Farmer who died 31 October 1903 granted at Belfast to James > Rodgers > Fisherman. > > ============= > > > > Fiona. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message Anthony Mournian AnthonyMournian@san.rr.com

Michael Lightfoot wrote: >But you have missed the point. "Of full age" meant parental permission >was NOT required. The fact that Patricia's marriage cert says that, yet >they weren't over 21 would be prima facie evidence that they DIDN'T have >parental permission. It certainly happened. I have several cases in my >parish record transcriptions where the same situation applied. >And then there was Gretna Green... Perhaps like many others, I was baffled about "Gretna Green". It turns out that Gretna Green is a small town on the west coast of Scotland where many "runaway" marriages were performed. A full account can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretna_Green. Stan

I'm just wondering how tight controls were as to producing proof of age etc. back in the 1860s. Perhaps some said they were older or maybe the interpretation of 'full age' was changed at some point. Claire www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DLCulhane@cs.com Sent: 15 January 2008 00:59 To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] James CROSKERY and Margaret SLOAN I had an ancestor who was listed as full age but was only 17, so I think the term was sometimes interpreted loosely. Diane

Janice, 'Full age' indicates that the person was at least 21 years old, so they could have been 21 or upwards. Margaret's father is listed in Griffiths, in Tullyveery, Parish of Killyleagh. There are no entries for CROSKERY (or variant spelling CROSKERRY) in that Parish, although there is a Robert McCROSKERY in the townland of Tullyveery, Killyleagh Parish. Depending on when James' father died, there is a James Croskery listed in Creevyargon, Parish of Kilmore. You can access the Griffiths Valuation index at www.failteromhat.com You could also try the County Down pages at http://www.rootsweb.com/~nirdow2/ there are other pages but my browser is refusing to work at this moment so perhaps someone else can give the addresses of other Down sites. The Proni website is listing Will abstracts, which can be searched free at www.proni.gov.uk Proni also list freeholders and Ulster Covenant, although the Covenant wouldn't apply to your family as they were RC. There is also a site called www.emeraldancestors.com which you can search but you may need to subscribe to get more info. Meanwhile, I will keep a look out for anything else of interest. Claire McConville www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Janice Searle Sent: 14 January 2008 22:24 To: nir-down@rootsweb.com Subject: [NIR-DOWN] James CROSKERY and Margaret SLOAN Hello listers, I am not familiar with research in Ireland, but have the following marriage details of my great grand aunt, Margaret SLOAN. What age does 'full age' refer to as listed? Is it 21? Where could I locate death records for them online? I know that James was deceased between 1886 when his last child was born and before Dec 1899 when his daughter married, and Margaret between 1899 and before 1918 when a letter from her daughter to a cousin confirms this. Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Type, Surname, Firstname, Date, Fathers Firstname, Parish \ District, County Civil Marriages, CROSKERY, JAMES, 17/11/1866, JAMES, INCH KILLYLEAGH KILMORE, Down Type Civil Marriages 16-733 Date Of Marriage 17/11/1866 Husband Firstname JAMES Husband Surname CROSKERY Husband Townland / Street TULLYVEERY Husband Occupation FLAX DRESSER Husband Age FA full age Husband Denomination Roman Catholic Husband Marital Status Bachelor (Previously unmarried) Husband Father Firstname JAMES Husband Father Surname CROSKERY decd Husband Father Occupation FARMER Husband Mother Firstname Husband Mother Surname Husband Witness Firstname JAMES Husband Witness Surname KEENAN Wife Firstname MARGARET Wife Surname SLOAN Wife Townland / Street TULLYVEERY Wife Occupation MILL WORKER Wife Age FA Wife Denomination Roman Catholic Wife Marital Status Spinster (Previously unmarried) Wife Father Firstname PATRICK Wife Father Surname SLOAN decd Wife Father Occupation LABOURER Wife Mother Firstname Wife Mother Surname Wife Witness Firstname MARY Wife Witness Surname SLOAN Denomination Comment BY LICENCE REV E CONNOR MGR: BOTH FATHERS DECEASED. Street KILLYLEAGH Roman Catholic Town DOWN Area INCH KILLYLEAGH KILMORE County CO DOWN Kind regards Janice Searle (nee SLOANE) Darfield, NZ

Not really. I was responding to the proposition that an 18 and a 16 year old would need to falsify their ages to be married. This is certainly not the case, as long as consent was available, and among ordinary folk, it would be readily so. Look at the records: 16 year old brides are common. The utility of Gretna Green was strictly limited to society flibbertigibbets (think Paris Hilton or Britney Spears) where there was a need to escape parental control; you have to take into account that no society marriage was possible for anyone without consent no matter what the ages of the participants. Ordinary folk had no need of such shenanigans, or access to them, in fact. I don't think we have seen a good definition of "full age" - I certainly don't think I have seen one. The nearest we have is a kind of a feeling that it might be the age where children throw off the governance of their parents. I am sure someone here can provide the definitive information we need, and so I turn it over to the collective knowledge of the list. What do you say? Peter Michael Lightfoot wrote: > Peter McGuinness wrote: > >> No subterfuge required: marriage at 16 was, and is, legal in England >> with parental consent. In all the English census returns, the marital >> status is left blank unless the individual is 16 or over, after which it >> is completed; the assumption being that anyone under 16 is automatically >> single but after that you need to specify. >> I have a feeling the parish priest would usually need no proof of age - >> he would already know! >> >> > But you have missed the point. "Of full age" meant parental permission > was NOT required. The fact that Patricia's marriage cert says that, yet > they weren't over 21 would be prima facie evidence that they DIDN'T have > parental permission. It certainly happened. I have several cases in my > parish record transcriptions where the same situation applied. > > And then there was Gretna Green... > >

The Scottish name Hamilton is found all oer Ireland, but especially in Ulster where it is among the thirty most common names. The original family ws Norman deriving from Walter Fitz Gilbert of Hambeldone noted in 1295. Hambleton was in Yorkshire. No less than six of the 50 undertakers and two of the nine undertakers arranged for huge amounts of land they were given to be leased. In the late 19th.C Antrim the main concentration was in the barony of Upper Dunluce and in Down around Dromara Thompson is equally common in England, Ireland and Scotland and means, "son of Thom". Thomas was a common Anglo-Norman personal name. Many Thomsons came from Ayrshire. The name of various Tompson clans was anglicised. Some Scottish MacThomsons, etc. came to Ulster after Montrose was killed in 1644 and the clan scattered. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Martin" <teacher@pmt.org> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request - from Books by David Dobson > Any info on Thompson and Hamilton names? Thanks, Ann of Idaho > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hugh Macartney" <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 2:39 PM > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request - from Books by David Dobson > > >> The origin of the Kennedys in Scotland and Ireland goes back a very long >> way. Like so many Scottish names it is of Irish origin from O Cinneide >> meaning ceann, head, and eidigh meaning ugly. The Irish Kennedys were >> descended from Cennedig who was Brian Boru's nephew. They were Lords of >> Ormonde from the 11th. to 16th.C's. Originally from Clare, they spread >> down as far as Wexford where John F. Kennedy's ancesters came from. There >> were three branches: >> O'Kennedy Donn (brown),O'Kennedy Fionn (fair) and O'Kennedy Rua (red). >> Some >> moved to Country Antrim where the name is still common. The Irish >> O'Kennedys >> migrated to Scotland and became MacKennedys and were a sept of the Clan >> Cameron and those in Invernesshire descend from the Ayrshire Kennedys >> where >> they were first known as Lords Kennedys and later as Earls of Cassilis. A >> 16th. C Scottish rhyme goes: >> "Twixt Wigton and the toun of Ayr, >> Portpatrick and the Cruives of Cree, >> No man needs think for to bide there, >> Unless he courts with Kennedie. Ayrshire Kennedys were brough over to >> Ulster >> to build the post of Donaghadee in 1603 and spread through the Ards >> peninsula at Bangor, Comber and Newtownards and on Down to >> Downpatrick.What >> I find strange is that the Muster Roll of County Down held in Bangor in >> 1631 >> lists only one Kennedy - Constantyne. Similarly the Muster Roll of >> Clandeboye held in Killyleagh in 1642 listed only Thomas Kenedy. Sir >> Arthur >> Edward Kennedy, 1810-83, was born at Culta near Holywood and became >> Governor >> of Gambia, West Australia, Hing Kong and later Queensland. There is a >> lot >> of early Kennedy information in Hanna's, "The Scotch-Irish". There were >> Kennedys of Clogher, Co. Tyrone who descended from Cornet John Kennedy >> 1615-1680 of the Ayrshire Kennedys, who came there in 1641 with the >> Scottish >> army under Lord Leven. Most County Down and County Down Kennedys came >> from >> Ayrshire and Galloway. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Kennedy" <kennedmr@siscom.net> >> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:18 AM >> Subject: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request - from Books by David Dobson >> >> >>> Greetings: >>> >>> Is there anyone willing to do some lookups from the books by David >>> Dobson >>> on the Scots-Irish around the period 1725-1825. >>> Apparently he wrote three to five books on the Scot-Irish, with at least >>> three dealing with this period of time. >>> I am looking for information on the Kennedy surname in County Down, >>> especially the area in and near the town of Killyleagh or the Barony of >>> Dufferin and the whole area known as East Down. >>> What area of Scotland did these Kennedys originally come from? >>> Did these Kennedys belong to any particular branch of the Scottish >>> Kennedys? >>> Are any of them mentioned as coming from Glasgow? >>> Are there any family trees or genealogies available that tie these >>> County >>> Down Kennedy's with Scottish Kennedy's? >>> Are any of these books online? >>> >>> >>> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >>> Thanks >>> >>> Mike Kennedy >>> Dayton Ohio >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Brenda, My first husband, Wilmot DePue Foster's grandfather, Christopher Foster b. 1807, "somewhere" in Ireland, lived in Wilmot, Ontario and died in 1886 in St. Thomas, Elgin.. This year, my son, a third generation Wilmot Foster, visited, found the farm and took pictures. (Naturally, I nearly killed him because he didn't knock on the door) We also have a very stern looking portrait of Christopher Foster that no kid of mine wants in their living room. I am in the process of brainwashing a grandson. Christopher Foster, a Methodist, was married twice. Our family comes down from his only child by his second wife, Mary Coyne, and they only had one child, John Wesley Foster b.1854 in Wilmot, Ontario . Mary Coyne was born a Methodist in 1815 in Canada. She died before the 1881 Canadian census (or at least they missed her). Christopher Foster's first wife, Elizabeth (Eliza) Neilson Foster had four children. Mary b. 1841, James b. 1842, Neilson b. 1844, (often listed as "Nelson") and Catherine Foster b. 1846. Mary Foster b. 1841 married James Reddaway and moved to Oregon. Neilson Foster b. 1844 appears to have died fairly early because he has two nephews named after him b. 1872 and 1873. All I know about Catherine Foster is that she was born and baptised in 1846 and married a John Moukman James Foster b. 1842 married Margaret Cumming and had three children, Minnie Elizabeth Foster b. 1871, Nelson (Neilson?) Milton Cph'm (whatever that stands for?) Ornston Foster b. 1873, and Ernst William Washington Wesley Foster. b. 1875. They all show up in the Canadian 1881 census, but are gone by the next Canadian census. I would like to know what happened to them. And of course, most of all - I'd like to know bout the "somewhere" in Ireland. My Mother was a McKeag from Co. Down and my father was 7 generations from Mathias O'Connor a Sligo Protestant in Brooklyn. Misinformation on John Wesley Foster's death certificate claimed he was born in Scotland, but almost everything else was wrong also. That's happened twice in my family when the grieving widow left it up to some distant relative to fill out the death certificate and they even got maiden names wrong. Any suggestions of a route to pursue? Thanks, Thanks, Isabella Chappell In a message dated 1/14/2008 7:08:24 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, b-g.anderson@sympatico.ca writes: Hi Nan: Just going through me emails and found this one that you sent. Did you get any replies. I could look up the deaths here in Ontario to see if there is more information. Let me know Brenda Brampton, Ontario Nan Brennan wrote: >There was a Patrick McEvoy in the Ontario Canada Death Register >Simcoe District : Date of death Sept 17 1876, age 50, b Ireland @1826. >occupation Merchant. > >Another Patrick McEvoy, born Ireland, died in York (Ontario) on Dec >17, 1886, age 53 > > >I am still looking for my Greatgrandfather's brother: >My gG was MICHAEL MCEVOY, born Ballymagreen @1834, died >Ballymagreehan 1901. >He was the son of LAWRENCE MCEVOY AND MARY GRIBBEN of Ballymagreehan. > >Other siblings : Owen died in Iowa. Dennis died in Sunderland Durham >England. >Margaret married Patrick O'prey of Ballymagreehan. Died in >Ballymagreehan. >Bridget May have come to Iowa. No info on a daughter/sister "Mary" >and a son Patrick. > >I have no birth info on Patrick. I have no info on Patrick except >family stories that there was a Patrick. > >Does any one have knowledge of either of these Patricks that died in >Ontario Canada? > >Thanks for any help or info anyone might have. > >Nan/Çhicago. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489

I had an ancestor who was listed as full age but was only 17, so I think the term was sometimes interpreted loosely. Diane

Some on in the last few days was asking about a Burnside family While doing another task I found this reference "the Burnside family tree (T.2707 P.R.O.N.I.), " You may like to ask a local or someone who is going to PRONI in ht enext month otr so if they can do a look up for you to see what is contained in this record Mike Boyd Brisbane

Any info on Thompson and Hamilton names? Thanks, Ann of Idaho ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hugh Macartney" <hhmacartney@shaw.ca> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 2:39 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request - from Books by David Dobson > The origin of the Kennedys in Scotland and Ireland goes back a very long > way. Like so many Scottish names it is of Irish origin from O Cinneide > meaning ceann, head, and eidigh meaning ugly. The Irish Kennedys were > descended from Cennedig who was Brian Boru's nephew. They were Lords of > Ormonde from the 11th. to 16th.C's. Originally from Clare, they spread > down as far as Wexford where John F. Kennedy's ancesters came from. There > were three branches: > O'Kennedy Donn (brown),O'Kennedy Fionn (fair) and O'Kennedy Rua (red). > Some > moved to Country Antrim where the name is still common. The Irish > O'Kennedys > migrated to Scotland and became MacKennedys and were a sept of the Clan > Cameron and those in Invernesshire descend from the Ayrshire Kennedys > where > they were first known as Lords Kennedys and later as Earls of Cassilis. A > 16th. C Scottish rhyme goes: > "Twixt Wigton and the toun of Ayr, > Portpatrick and the Cruives of Cree, > No man needs think for to bide there, > Unless he courts with Kennedie. Ayrshire Kennedys were brough over to > Ulster > to build the post of Donaghadee in 1603 and spread through the Ards > peninsula at Bangor, Comber and Newtownards and on Down to > Downpatrick.What > I find strange is that the Muster Roll of County Down held in Bangor in > 1631 > lists only one Kennedy - Constantyne. Similarly the Muster Roll of > Clandeboye held in Killyleagh in 1642 listed only Thomas Kenedy. Sir > Arthur > Edward Kennedy, 1810-83, was born at Culta near Holywood and became > Governor > of Gambia, West Australia, Hing Kong and later Queensland. There is a lot > of early Kennedy information in Hanna's, "The Scotch-Irish". There were > Kennedys of Clogher, Co. Tyrone who descended from Cornet John Kennedy > 1615-1680 of the Ayrshire Kennedys, who came there in 1641 with the > Scottish > army under Lord Leven. Most County Down and County Down Kennedys came from > Ayrshire and Galloway. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Kennedy" <kennedmr@siscom.net> > To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 11:18 AM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request - from Books by David Dobson > > >> Greetings: >> >> Is there anyone willing to do some lookups from the books by David Dobson >> on the Scots-Irish around the period 1725-1825. >> Apparently he wrote three to five books on the Scot-Irish, with at least >> three dealing with this period of time. >> I am looking for information on the Kennedy surname in County Down, >> especially the area in and near the town of Killyleagh or the Barony of >> Dufferin and the whole area known as East Down. >> What area of Scotland did these Kennedys originally come from? >> Did these Kennedys belong to any particular branch of the Scottish >> Kennedys? >> Are any of them mentioned as coming from Glasgow? >> Are there any family trees or genealogies available that tie these County >> Down Kennedy's with Scottish Kennedy's? >> Are any of these books online? >> >> >> Any help would be greatly appreciated. >> Thanks >> >> Mike Kennedy >> Dayton Ohio >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

No subterfuge required: marriage at 16 was, and is, legal in England with parental consent. In all the English census returns, the marital status is left blank unless the individual is 16 or over, after which it is completed; the assumption being that anyone under 16 is automatically single but after that you need to specify. I have a feeling the parish priest would usually need no proof of age - he would already know! Peter Patricia Moosman wrote: > I am not sure any proof could have been required > I have an English marriage certificate which gives both parties as full age > but they were 16 and 18 going by there birth certificates and age at death > The dates were consistent for everything else so you suspect they gave their > ages wrong to get married. They immediately left England for New Zealand so > I suppose nobody questioned it > > Patricia > New Zealand > > -----Original Message----- > From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Claire McConville > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:15 PM > To: nir-down@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] James CROSKERY and Margaret SLOAN > > I'm just wondering how tight controls were as to producing proof of age etc. > back in the 1860s. Perhaps some said they were older or maybe the > interpretation of 'full age' was changed at some point. > > Claire > > www.claires-rosleaancestry.co.uk > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:nir-down-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of DLCulhane@cs.com > Sent: 15 January 2008 00:59 > To: nir-down@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] James CROSKERY and Margaret SLOAN > > I had an ancestor who was listed as full age but was only 17, so I think the > > term was sometimes interpreted loosely. > > Diane > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

After the Battle of the Boyne, the English government confiscated many 1,000's of acres of land from the original Irish (Celtic) owners. Folks who acquired land in 1609 through undetakers etc. also forfeited their lands if they fought on the side of the Irish Catholics during the Battle. Then the lands that the English confiscated were resold to 'loyal' noble who could buy the lands - cheaply. Our family 'bought' over 10,000 acres in Co. Meath and elsewhere. They had previously lost their lands in Co Fermanagh circa 1639, I think because they rented their lands to 'mere Irish', and this was not allowed under the undertaking. Our family then leased land to tenant farmers for long leases. In the Wyndham Act (I think it was called) the english government took the land from the large landholders and either gave or sold it to the sitting farmers. Hill's Plantation of Ulster gives more details and names about the 1609 plantation. Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Boyd" <mikejboyd@bigpond.com> To: <nir-down@rootsweb.com>; <NIR-DOWN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > Mary > My lay understanding is that you could and often did have four levels of > for > land occupation. > > After 1609 you had the noblity being given large area of land. > They in turn leased to Undertakers area of several hundred acres > Who in term had tennant farmers > They may have even subtennants > > Then in the early 1900 under a British Act of Parliament, these land > owners > had to sell the land to their tennants. I do not know what the conditions > where, but I think it had to do with those who had been in long term > rents. > > Hopefully that will give you an idea > > Mike boyd > Brisbane > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Guler" <mlmguler@yahoo.com> > To: <NIR-DOWN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:39 AM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > > >> Is there anyone who can help me understand about land ownership post >> Battle of the Boyne (and even into today) in County Down? >> >> My family, Russell, seemed to have land that was part of the Kilmorey >> estate, which they rented out to others. Some (?all) of that land is >> still in the hands of family members. How did they come to be in >> possession of the land? Was it purchased from the Kilmorey Estate? Was >> it a gift? Why is it still referred to as Kilmorey Estate? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> Mary >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Pete, Sheila - something strange happening in Ballyveaghmore :-) 1901 census: Family 46: Arthur Rooney Mother RC 60 Male Farmers Mother Widower Down Fiona.  

Thanks...all of this is helping me to understand. I googled Hill's Plantation of Ulster, and it mentions 6 counties, Down not being one of those listed. Was Down ever part of another County? Thanks, Mary Robt & Wendy Stevenson <stevensons@odyssey.on.ca> wrote: After the Battle of the Boyne, the English government confiscated many 1,000's of acres of land from the original Irish (Celtic) owners. Folks who acquired land in 1609 through undetakers etc. also forfeited their lands if they fought on the side of the Irish Catholics during the Battle. Then the lands that the English confiscated were resold to 'loyal' noble who could buy the lands - cheaply. Our family 'bought' over 10,000 acres in Co. Meath and elsewhere. They had previously lost their lands in Co Fermanagh Hill's Pl circa 1639, I think because they rented their lands to 'mere Irish', and this was not allowed under the undertaking. Our family then leased land to tenant farmers for long leases. In the Wyndham Act (I think it was called) the english government took the land from the large landholders and either gave or sold it to the sitting farmers. Hill's Plantation of Ulster gives more details and names about the 1609 plantation. Wendy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Boyd" To: ; Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > Mary > My lay understanding is that you could and often did have four levels of > for > land occupation. > > After 1609 you had the noblity being given large area of land. > They in turn leased to Undertakers area of several hundred acres > Who in term had tennant farmers > They may have even subtennants > > Then in the early 1900 under a British Act of Parliament, these land > owners > had to sell the land to their tennants. I do not know what the conditions > where, but I think it had to do with those who had been in long term > rents. > > Hopefully that will give you an idea > > Mike boyd > Brisbane > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mary Guler" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:39 AM > Subject: [NIR-DOWN] Question about land ownership > > >> Is there anyone who can help me understand about land ownership post >> Battle of the Boyne (and even into today) in County Down? >> >> My family, Russell, seemed to have land that was part of the Kilmorey >> estate, which they rented out to others. Some (?all) of that land is >> still in the hands of family members. How did they come to be in >> possession of the land? Was it purchased from the Kilmorey Estate? Was >> it a gift? Why is it still referred to as Kilmorey Estate? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> Mary >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! >> Search. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

Hello Mike, I am a Kennedy,my GrandFather's family are from the Co Down, and I have recently begun a search for information about my Kennedy family. I had not heard of Dobson's books but I will see what information I can find and will let you know if I have any luck, in the mean time someone else may contact you with the information you are looking for. So far I have learned that my Great Grand Parents Charles and Ellen Kennedy were from the Drumee/Bryansford/Newcastle area, I don't know if that is the area that you are interested in but if so I have some photos of these places that I can e-mail to you. Rachel >----Original Message---- >From: kennedmr@siscom.net >Date: 13/01/2008 19:16 >To: "nir-down"<nir-down-l@rootsweb.com> >Subj: [NIR-DOWN] lookup request -David Dobson books > >Greetings: > >Is there anyone willing to do some lookups from the books by David Dobson on the Scots-Irish around the period 1725-1825. >Apparently he wrote three to five books on the Scot-Irish, with at least three dealing with this period of time. >I am looking for information on the Kennedy surname in County Down, especially the area in and near the town of Killyleagh or the Barony of Dufferin and the whole area known as East Down. >What area of Scotland did these Kennedys originally come from? >Did these Kennedys belong to any particular branch of the Scottish Kennedys? >Are any of them mentioned as coming from Glasgow? >Are there any family trees or genealogies available that tie these County Down Kennedy's with Scottish Kennedy's? >Are any of these books online? > > >Any help would be greatly appreciated. >Thanks > >Mike Kennedy >Dayton Ohio > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIR-DOWN- request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > __________________________________________________ Get up to £150 by recycling your old mobile - visit www.tiscali.co.uk/recycle