There has been talk recently on some lists relating to Irish birth, marriage and death records and last week I had begun something in relation to what you can do with information that is easily available to you (not parish records). I'm going to forward this to the Armagh and Cavan and Laois lists because it was on them that BDM records have been mentioned, I'm posting it to the Antrim list because I have Antrim well covered on my BDM pages and then I'm posting to two rootsweb lists that I am admin for - Leix and Monaghan I don't want to overload people's mail boxes if they are subbed to all these lists, so, this and only two other posts relating to one common surname in one county will go to Antrim, Armagh and Cavan and Laois. People will have some bit of an idea of what can be done once I finish with the first surname which is a county specific example. These mails are geared towards those who don't knwo where in a county their ancestors came from, though they may hold a few new points for others ;-) This is in some ways a rehash of what I posted last week, it is definitely a thread I have posted to the mail lists over the years - in one form or another....but it is not the same......... There are a number of resources which can be used to give us some idea of which part of Ireland or a county a surname was found in - and, unfortunately, while these resources are easily available to anyone who has a Family History Centre in their locality, some of them are not used for a number of reasons. I think, perhaps the main reason is a lack of understanding of their value to a researcher. I imagine with civil records, it is because most believe that civil records can hold no value to them and then, there are all our land divisions - some of which I had never heard of until I got into genealogy - and some of which mean nothing today, but many of which people will include in every post they make re their ancestors - townlands, baronies, parishes (civil and religious) Poor Law Unions, Registrar's Districts, Superintendant Regisrar's Districts, District Electoral Divisions, Counties, Provinces - and as for where is where - there's northern Ireland and sourthern Ireland - and Ulster, that's a province composed of nine counties - but only six of them are in northern Ireland and the rest in southern Ireland - *but* Donegal lies right beside Tyrone - and Tyrone, that's in Northern Ireland but Donegal - that's in Southern Ireland........ Mind boggling - the lot................!! Divisions are needed depending on what you are looking at - and what information you do have on your ancestors..........and the more you have and are listing everywhere - then the more you will confuse yourself. So, we're going to try and simplify some things - I'm going to try and show you how something like Irish civil records can be of some help to you, regardless of when your ancestors left Ireland. We're going to try and see how much information is really available on the internet if you know the right words to look for - we're going to have a bit of a go at comparing information on the Griffiths cd which so many have, and use to do look ups for other people, with the information that can be had simply by looking at some names in the Householder's Index - that is the Griffiths and Tithes surname index for each county. What is known as the Griffiths Valuation was an assessment of land and property carried out in the 1850's+ and this gives us some idea of the names of people who were leasing land at that time. The Tithes were another tax and the Tithe Applotment books predate Griffiths usually by about 20 years. Civil registration began for non-catholic marriages in 1845 and then became compulsory for all, births, deaths and marriages from 1864 onwards. We therefore have 2-3 time frames to work with - *and* names did disappear from a civil parish or a townland between the time of the Tithes and the Griffiths. This, is not shown on the Griffiths cd - which is lacking in other ways as well - but, the Grifiths cd is, nevertheless, an important research tool - as an initial guide. What I want to know is whether or not surname variations are included in this cd. I have begun a table with surnames on it and I will show you this when I'm finished - I began with not too many surnames and last time I looked it had increased to 52 - including variations as I come across them in a county and listed in the Householders index - on my table I am noting whether the name occured in both the Griffiths and Tithes within a county - or just one. One tells us that the name had either appeared in the intervening years, or thta someone of that surname had acquired more land (if listed in Griffiths and not Tithes) there is also the possibililty that someone of that name had moved in or out of that area........ When I finish with that table, I'd like to compare it with what I have found in civil records for those surnames. Everything is guesswork however............but some guesswork is better than some other guesswork I have a friend who is interested in his own surname as well as a few more - he had copies of parish records from Ireland with that surname on them, so he was lucky..........I found one reference in the civil registers to his surname..........the name no longer is found here. Yet, one day reading through postings on the County Cork mail list I spotted that surname again - I think it was Margaret Moon made the 1766 census posts? and they are now on Margaret Grogans web site. Anyway - the surname was in Co. Cork in 1766 - the parish was right noext door to the Waterford parish that my friend knew his family came from - and so, we had an earlier date and obviously the family moved across the border - or else, because they were not Catholics - their church was in Co. Waterford - that is the closest one of their religion. Small things can count and remembering not to pen the family in to one area is important. Common surnames - there's not a lot can be done with them - but if you have two surnames together, then that help eliminate places. Once you are into parish records, then it can become a whole different ball game. First or Christian names - they can tell us a lot too,- or, I think so. I see all of this 'Irish naming pattern' being passed about the web and to tell the truth I can't honestly say I've seen much of the way it's said to go in what I've seen of records - the first son and the first daughter..........and maybe the second son and daughter - well, they're probably going to have been called after the Grandparents nad parents all right but after that - you're into no man's land - a brother a sister, a favourite person, a dead child................ There's nothing definitive and too many variables and too many common names. It's the less common names that you have to home in on - the least common surname in your tree - the least common first names - that's your best shot. My objectives with these posts will be to show you that by using the civil records and the Householders index you can find a number of places in Ireland that a surname was found - in that, you can say my ansectors came from here or there - take teh most common place for a name as your main area to begin research in and then work your way out to the other places for which there seem to have been fewer records of that surname. The surnames I work with are irrelevant - it's in how I play with them, or say what I can see and the guesswork from what I can see that is important. In my Householder's Index table, I use surnames that I don't use in the mails - I want to make sure that everyone realises that nothing is definite in all of this - there is no proof, there cannot be any statistical analysis, not really.........just a bit of a play at things So. over the next while, I'll show you a few scenarios........ A few surnames to a county or counties...........usually the unusual kind the changes in a surname spelling over time here in Ireland - how it was one way in earlier years and how it's not that way now. Spellings can be used to cut out a few places or home in on somewhere before the other depending on the time frame A common enough surname or two - not of the O'Brien or Kelly variety which is everywhere - but some others found in a few counties. A surname that I know to be found and have been found in Kerry and for which I have found no reference in the Griffiths or Tithes in Kerry - and none in civil registration either. I'd like to show some things re an odd first name or two - re-invent the old family naming pattern a bit maybe ;-) All in all, nothing conclusive - but guidelines, always remembering that most names were probably found somewhere in a county. What we want to do is try to work out ways to try and help those who haven't got a clue and who are totally confused re the various Irish divisions. I think, there are more of those about than the other. Jane

Jane, what you are doing is wonderful...but...I have a problem with records before 1750! I am particularly searching for DUFF families in N. Ireland from c. 1690 to 1750. Primary Christian name is Samuel Duff. He was born ca. 1712?, married ca. 1742. He is found in NC Colony by 1757. Do you plan to cover the 1700-1750 time period? If not, do you know of a good source I can search? I live over 150 miles from a 'good' genealogy library, so most of my research is by mail and internet sources. Appreciate any help/suggestions you can provide. Regards, Bonnie Duff-Smith

Hi Jane, Can't imagine the size and amount of work you have done with such a large job. It is greatly appreciated. I will check with the Morman Church as you suggested but wonder if you have the time to give me any clues about the Faulkner family of County Antrim. My g grandfather, Adam Faulkner, was born October 31, 1837 in County Antrim to William Faulkner and Ann(e) Holmes. He supposedly had a brother William and a brother George. I know you must be very busy but would appreciate any suggestions you might have about them. Thanks for all your work. Dorothy Faulkner Leinhauser [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Lyons" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:57 PM Subject: From Ireland or a county and you don't know where > There has been talk recently on some lists relating to Irish birth, marriage > and death records and last week I had begun something in relation to what > you can do with information that is easily available to you (not parish > records). I'm going to forward this to the Armagh and Cavan and Laois lists > because it was on them that BDM records have been mentioned, I'm posting it > to the Antrim list because I have Antrim well covered on my BDM pages and > then I'm posting to two rootsweb lists that I am admin for - Leix and > Monaghan > > I don't want to overload people's mail boxes if they are subbed to all these > lists, so, this and only two other posts relating to one common surname in > one county will go to Antrim, Armagh and Cavan and Laois. People will have > some bit of an idea of what can be done once I finish with the first surname > which is a county specific example. These mails are geared towards those > who don't knwo where in a county their ancestors came from, though they may > hold a few new points for others ;-) > > This is in some ways a rehash of what I posted last week, it is definitely a > thread I have posted to the mail lists over the years - in one form or > another....but it is not the same......... > > There are a number of resources which can be used to give us some idea of > which part of Ireland or a county a surname was found in - and, > unfortunately, while these resources are easily available to anyone who has > a Family History Centre in their locality, some of them are not used for a > number of reasons. I think, perhaps the main reason is a lack of > understanding of their value to a researcher. I imagine with civil records, > it is because most believe that civil records can hold no value to them and > then, there are all our land divisions - some of which I had never heard of > until I got into genealogy - and some of which mean nothing today, but many > of which people will include in every post they make re their ancestors - > townlands, baronies, parishes (civil and religious) Poor Law Unions, > Registrar's Districts, Superintendant Regisrar's Districts, District > Electoral Divisions, Counties, Provinces - and as for where is where - > there's northern Ireland and sourthern Ireland - and Ulster, that's a > province composed of nine counties - but only six of them are in northern > Ireland and the rest in southern Ireland - *but* Donegal lies right beside > Tyrone - and Tyrone, that's in Northern Ireland but Donegal - that's in > Southern Ireland........ > > Mind boggling - the lot................!! > > Divisions are needed depending on what you are looking at - and what > information you do have on your ancestors..........and the more you have and > are listing everywhere - then the more you will confuse yourself. > > So, we're going to try and simplify some things - I'm going to try and show > you how something like Irish civil records can be of some help to you, > regardless of when your ancestors left Ireland. We're going to try and see > how much information is really available on the internet if you know the > right words to look for - we're going to have a bit of a go at comparing > information on the Griffiths cd which so many have, and use to do look ups > for other people, with the information that can be had simply by looking at > some names in the Householder's Index - that is the Griffiths and Tithes > surname index for each county. > > What is known as the Griffiths Valuation was an assessment of land and > property carried out in the 1850's+ and this gives us some idea of the names > of people who were leasing land at that time. The Tithes were another tax > and the Tithe Applotment books predate Griffiths usually by about 20 years. > > Civil registration began for non-catholic marriages in 1845 and then became > compulsory for all, births, deaths and marriages from 1864 onwards. > > We therefore have 2-3 time frames to work with - *and* names did disappear > from a civil parish or a townland between the time of the Tithes and the > Griffiths. This, is not shown on the Griffiths cd - which is lacking in > other ways as well - but, the Grifiths cd is, nevertheless, an important > research tool - as an initial guide. What I want to know is whether or not > surname variations are included in this cd. > > I have begun a table with surnames on it and I will show you this when I'm > finished - I began with not too many surnames and last time I looked it had > increased to 52 - including variations as I come across them in a county and > listed in the Householders index - on my table I am noting whether the name > occured in both the Griffiths and Tithes within a county - or just one. One > tells us that the name had either appeared in the intervening years, or thta > someone of that surname had acquired more land (if listed in Griffiths and > not Tithes) there is also the possibililty that someone of that name had > moved in or out of that area........ > > When I finish with that table, I'd like to compare it with what I have found > in civil records for those surnames. > > Everything is guesswork however............but some guesswork is better than > some other guesswork > > I have a friend who is interested in his own surname as well as a few more - > he had copies of parish records from Ireland with that surname on them, so > he was lucky..........I found one reference in the civil registers to his > surname..........the name no longer is found here. Yet, one day reading > through postings on the County Cork mail list I spotted that surname again - > I think it was Margaret Moon made the 1766 census posts? and they are now on > Margaret Grogans web site. Anyway - the surname was in Co. Cork in 1766 - > the parish was right noext door to the Waterford parish that my friend knew > his family came from - and so, we had an earlier date and obviously the > family moved across the border - or else, because they were not Catholics - > their church was in Co. Waterford - that is the closest one of their > religion. > > Small things can count and remembering not to pen the family in to one area > is important. > > Common surnames - there's not a lot can be done with them - but if you have > two surnames together, then that help eliminate places. > > Once you are into parish records, then it can become a whole different ball > game. > > First or Christian names - they can tell us a lot too,- or, I think so. I > see all of this 'Irish naming pattern' being passed about the web and to > tell the truth I can't honestly say I've seen much of the way it's said to > go in what I've seen of records - the first son and the first > daughter..........and maybe the second son and daughter - well, they're > probably going to have been called after the Grandparents nad parents all > right but after that - you're into no man's land - a brother a sister, a > favourite person, a dead child................ > > There's nothing definitive and too many variables and too many common names. > > It's the less common names that you have to home in on - the least common > surname in your tree - the least common first names - that's your best shot. > > My objectives with these posts will be to show you that by using the civil > records and the Householders index you can find a number of places in > Ireland that a surname was found - in that, you can say my ansectors came > from here or there - take teh most common place for a name as your main area > to begin research in and then work your way out to the other places for > which there seem to have been fewer records of that surname. > > The surnames I work with are irrelevant - it's in how I play with them, or > say what I can see and the guesswork from what I can see that is important. > > In my Householder's Index table, I use surnames that I don't use in the > mails - I want to make sure that everyone realises that nothing is definite > in all of this - there is no proof, there cannot be any statistical > analysis, not really.........just a bit of a play at things > > So. over the next while, I'll show you a few scenarios........ > > A few surnames to a county or counties...........usually the unusual kind > > the changes in a surname spelling over time here in Ireland - how it was one > way in earlier years and how it's not that way now. Spellings can be used to > cut out a few places or home in on somewhere before the other depending on > the time frame > > A common enough surname or two - not of the O'Brien or Kelly variety which > is everywhere - but some others found in a few counties. > > A surname that I know to be found and have been found in Kerry and for which > I have found no reference in the Griffiths or Tithes in Kerry - and none in > civil registration either. > > I'd like to show some things re an odd first name or two - re-invent the old > family naming pattern a bit maybe ;-) > > All in all, nothing conclusive - but guidelines, always remembering that > most names were probably found somewhere in a county. What we want to do is > try to work out ways to try and help those who haven't got a clue and who > are totally confused re the various Irish divisions. > > I think, there are more of those about than the other. > > Jane > > > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >