Thank you all for responding so generously to my query about the location of my folks in Belfast in the 1800's. Their names were JAMES & MARIA (BEATTIE) HANNAH. On an 1867 letter, they wrote thier address as: Abbotsford Place, 243 York St, Belfast. James worked for the McDonnell family, Earls of Antrim, as an agent. I notice from your information, that a Mrs McDonnell lived at No. 2 Abbotsford Place in 1852. Maybe they lived in that home calling it "Cherrymount" & James worked in an office around the corner in the commercial district James describes, or at No.143 suggested by Chris, on York Street. Cherrymount, Belfast, is the only address that's on their gravestone in Ballymena where they are buried with their daughter, JANE STUART HANNAH, & Maria's parents, DR WILLIAM BEATTIE & JANE (STUART) BEATTIE. Thanks to your help, I now have the area where they lived circled on my Belfast map & a good idea of what it might have been like when the Hannah family lived there. We'll know where to visit whenever we can get a chance to make a trip to Belfast. You're terrific! Colleen > James, I noticed your kind reply to the NIR-ANTRIM post regarding information > about the location of Tyrone St in Belfast. Perhaps you could also help me > locate the whereabouts of some ancestors who lived, according to a letter > they wrote in 1867, at Abbotsford Place, 243 York St, Belfast. According to > their gravestone, when they died in 1891, they had lived at Cherrymount, > Belfast. I've looked at a contemporary map of Belfast but couldn't quite > figure out where these addresses were. Thanks for any help. ~ Colleen in St > Paul, Minnesota, USA <<<<<In a message dated 4/4/02: << Colleen, This will not be of much help to you. But it might give you the flavour of the location. The only street I'm familiar with is York Street which still exists and is the northern extension of Royal Avenue running through the city centre. I've looked for Abbotsford Place and Cherrymount (St.?) and found nothing. Now on the 1920 map of Belfast I can see that 243 York St. didn't exist. In fact this address is on the east side of York Street where the Midland Railway was located. So I would guess that whatever existed between Whitla St. and Milewater St. was cleared for the railway. This distance is just over 1/4 mile. According to extracts from the 1920 directory: Hanna Street intersects York St. then going north on York St. 220 E. McFall, Publican 222 Express Dairy and Tea Stores (A.Armstrong Ltd.) 224 F.Smith, Confectioner and Greengrocer 226 G.Hart, House Furnisher 228 Wm. McKnight Hairdresser 230 Jane Bowman,Hardware Dealer 232 S Barrett, Painter 234 A.Loughridge, shoemaker 236 Mrs. Agnes Anderson 2361/2 G.H.Hart, Stores 238 H. Armstrong, Bootmaker 240 Jos. Gourley Grocer and Egg merchant 242 Samuel Compton, Confectioner 244 M&E Hart Drapers 246 Mary McConville. Tobacconist 248 Sarah Harrison, Confectioner and Tobacconist The Queens Picture House 258 Salvation Army Hall 260-62 Robert Wilson and W.R.E.Wilson MDs 264 Ulster Bakery If you go to the map that Barbara referred us to yesterday at http://www.belfast.net/mo/belfast.JPG 243 York St. was just about where the "R" of York St. appears but on the railway side of the street. Good luck. James >> In a message dated 4/4/02: << Working from the 1852 Directory, Abbotsford Place comes after 141 York Street. 139 was Mrs Eagleson, 141 John Wm. M'Cracken, notary public, (his business address was 25 Corporation Street), then there were two new houses building, then a new shop building, then Fleet Street, then Abbotsford Place and then Ship Street. Soon after that it became York Road - and still was on the 1920 map, and today. By 1920 Abbotsford Place was invisible, although Fleet Street and Ship Street were still there. I'd suspect you are actually looking for 143, not 243, York Street, which would have been one of the houses being built in 1852. Nos. 141-153 are listed in the Central Belfast Historical Gazetteer as being of early 19th Century construction, still surviving in 1959. If anything has survived it will be opposite the Yorkgate Shopping Centre, with railway and motorway immediately to the east and almost parallel to York Street. Chris Morgan Sheffield >> In a message dated 4/4/02: << In the 1852 Belfast Street Directory, Abbotsford Place is listed as at "The lower end of York street" It had 6 properties and the occupiers at that time were: 1. Robert S Lepper, proprietor of cotton spinning mills, New Lodge Road 2. Mrs McDonnell 3. Abraham Bell, ship agent 4. Robert Mackenzie, merchant 5. Samuel Woolsey, flax merchant 6. Edmund Getty, Secretary, Harbour Commissioners In the 1972 Street Directory, houses up to 239, which is at the corner of Trafalgar Street, are standing. Then 241 - 271 York Street is shown as vacant ground. Then there is Earl Street, then numbers 273 - 283, then North Thomas Street. If you go to http://www.belfast.net/mo/belfast.JPG you can see Earl Street and North Thomas Street and a bit of Trafalgar Street, which I think at a time would have run on to York Street opposite Sussex Street. There is no sign of Cherrymount, which sounds like the name of a house or estate - where are your folk buried? would that give a clue to Cherrymount. Hope this helps Barbara >> >>>>>>

Hi James and James In the 1852 Belfast Street Directory, Abbotsford Place is listed as at "The lower end of York street" It had 6 properties and the occupiers at that time were: 1. Robert S Lepper, proprietor of cotton spinning mills, New Lodge Road 2. Mrs McDonnell 3. Abraham Bell, ship agent 4. Robert Mackenzie, merchant 5. Samuel Woolsey, flax merchant 6. Edmund Getty, Secretary, Harbour Commissioners In the 1972 Street Directory, houses up to 239, which is at the corner of Trafalgar Street, are standing. Then 241 - 271 York Street is shown as vacant ground. Then there is Earl Street, then numbers 273 - 283, then North Thomas Street. If you go to http://www.belfast.net/mo/belfast.JPG you can see Earl Street and North Thomas Street and a bit of Trafalgar Street, which I think at a time would have run on to York Street opposite Sussex Street. There is no sign of Cherrymount, which sounds like the name of a house or estate - where are your folk buried? would that give a clue to Cherrymount. Hope this helps Barbara -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: 04 April 2002 14:59 Subject: Re: Tryone St ? >James, I noticed your kind reply to the NIR-ANTRIM post regarding information >about the location of Tyrone St in Belfast. Perhaps you could also help me >locate the whereabouts of some ancestors who lived, according to a letter >they wrote in 1867, at Abbotsford Place, 243 York St, Belfast. According to >their gravetone, when they died in 1891, they had lived at Cherrymount, >Belfast. I've looked at a contemporary map of Belfast but couldn't quite >figure out where these addresses were. Thanks for any help. ~ Colleen in St >Paul, Minnesota, USA > > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

> James, I noticed your kind reply to the NIR-ANTRIM post regarding information > about the location of Tyrone St in Belfast. Perhaps you could also help me > locate the whereabouts of some ancestors who lived, according to a letter > they wrote in 1867, at Abbotsford Place, 243 York St, Belfast. According to > their gravestone, when they died in 1891, they had lived at Cherrymount, > Belfast. I've looked at a contemporary map of Belfast but couldn't quite > figure out where these addresses were. Thanks for any help. ~ Colleen in St > Paul, Minnesota, USA Working from the 1852 Directory, Abbotsford Place comes after 141 York Street. 139 was Mrs Eagleson, 141 John Wm. M'Cracken, notary public, (his business address was 25 Corporation Street), then there were two new houses building, then a new shop building, then Fleet Street, then Abbotsford Place and then Ship Street. Soon after that it became York Road - and still was on the 1920 map, and today. By 1920 Abbotsford Place was invisible, although Fleet Street and Ship Street were still there. I'd suspect you are actually looking for 143, not 243, York Street, which would have been one of the houses being built in 1852. Nos. 141-153 are listed in the Central Belfast Historical Gazetteer as being of early 19th Century construction, still surviving in 1959. If anything has survived it will be opposite the Yorkgate Shopping Centre, with railway and motorway immediately to the east and almost parallel to York Street. Chris Morgan Sheffield

Can anyone pinpoint the location of 58 Bentwick St. and 4 Richmond Terrace (not Richmond St.) in Belfast of 1873. Would also appreciate advice on searching for information on Francis McAuley who was a lawyer of about 55 years of age in 1873. James

Colleen, This will not be of much help to you. But it might give you the flavour of the location. The only street I'm familiar with is York Street which still exists and is the northern extension of Royal Avenue running through the city centre. I've looked for Abbotsford Place and Cherrymount (St.?) and found nothing. Now on the 1920 map of Belfast I can see that 243 York St. didn't exist. In fact this address is on the east side of York Street where the Midland Railway was located. So I would guess that whatever existed between Whitla St. and Milewater St. was cleared for the railway. This distance is just over 1/4 mile. According to extracts from the 1920 directory: Hanna Street intersects York St. then going north on York St. 220 E. McFall, Publican 222 Express Dairy and Tea Stores (A.Armstrong Ltd.) 224 F.Smith, Confectioner and Greengrocer 226 G.Hart, House Furnisher 228 Wm. McKnight Hairdresser 230 Jane Bowman,Hardware Dealer 232 S Barrett, Painter 234 A.Loughridge, shoemaker 236 Mrs. Agnes Anderson 2361/2 G.H.Hart, Stores 238 H. Armstrong, Bootmaker 240 Jos. Gourley Grocer and Egg merchant 242 Samuel Compton, Confectioner 244 M&E Hart Drapers 246 Mary McConville. Tobacconist 248 Sarah Harrison, Confectioner and Tobacconist The Queens Picture House 258 Salvation Army Hall 260-62 Robert Wilson and W.R.E.Wilson MDs 264 Ulster Bakery If you go to the map that Barbara referred us to yesterday at http://www.belfast.net/mo/belfast.JPG 243 York St. was just about where the "R" of York St. appears but on the railway side of the street. Good luck. James ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Tryone St ? > James, I noticed your kind reply to the NIR-ANTRIM post regarding information > about the location of Tyrone St in Belfast. Perhaps you could also help me > locate the whereabouts of some ancestors who lived, according to a letter > they wrote in 1867, at Abbotsford Place, 243 York St, Belfast. According to > their gravetone, when they died in 1891, they had lived at Cherrymount, > Belfast. I've looked at a contemporary map of Belfast but couldn't quite > figure out where these addresses were. Thanks for any help. ~ Colleen in St > Paul, Minnesota, USA > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Hello, I am having difficulty in locating where in County Antrim my ancestor, Jacob STEWART, (bc1800, Ireland) and his family were located. He was married to Margaret GAMBLE, born c1805, County Tyrone, Ireland. They and their children, Robert (bc1834), ElizaJane (bc1835), Martha (bc1837) and Margaret Anne (bc1840, County Antrim), emigrated to Carleton County, Ontario in 1840, where their son Thomas was born in 1846. Would the Tithe records have been taken in all of County Antrim prior to 1840? Any help with this problem will certainly be appreciated. TIA Alice Cochrane

James, I noticed your kind reply to the NIR-ANTRIM post regarding information about the location of Tyrone St in Belfast. Perhaps you could also help me locate the whereabouts of some ancestors who lived, according to a letter they wrote in 1867, at Abbotsford Place, 243 York St, Belfast. According to their gravetone, when they died in 1891, they had lived at Cherrymount, Belfast. I've looked at a contemporary map of Belfast but couldn't quite figure out where these addresses were. Thanks for any help. ~ Colleen in St Paul, Minnesota, USA

Hi James and Maureen If you go to http://www.belfast.net/mo/belfast.JPG you'll find a map which shows Stanhope Street but not Tyrone Street, unfortunately. Tyrone Street doesn't appear in the 1852 street directory for Belfast, although Stanhope street was there. T. St. may not have been built at the time, or the houses in it were valued at less than £6 plv and so didn't make the directory. All the best Barbara -----Original Message----- From: JAMES MULLAN <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: 03 April 2002 20:37 Subject: Re: Tryone St ? >Tyrone street doesn't exist now in Belfast. My mother lived on this street, >and I used that street so many times going back and forth to school in >Donegall Street. > >Anyway it was located two streets south west of Clifton Steet. It ran from >Hanover Street to Stanhope Street. These Streets too are gone to make way >for the west link. The best way I can locate it now is, find Carlisle Circus >at the intersection of Clifton St., Antrim Rd. and Crumlin Rd. Just south >you will see the Orange Hall which still exists. Tryone Street was two >streets to the west of this location. The closest existing street now is >Trinity St. which is now not very long but still comes out on to Clifton St. >Good luck. > >James > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alfie Mc Allister" <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:05 PM >Subject: Re: Tryone St ? > > >> Sorry cant tell you where abouts Tyrone St. is in Belfast but here is a >site >> that has a street map of Belfast where you might be able to find the >street. >> www.belfast.net/mo There is also a lot of other stuff on Belfast. >> Cheers Alfie >> >> >> ============================== >> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, >go to: >> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >> >> > > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

In a message dated 4/3/2002 2:36:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > The best way I can locate it now is, find Carlisle Circus > at the intersection of Clifton St., Antrim Rd. and Crumlin Rd. Just south > you will see the Orange Hall which still exists. Tryone Street was two > streets to the west of this location. The closest existing street now is > Trinity St. which is now not very long but still comes out on to Clifton St. > Yikes, well....don't go during marching season

Hi everyone - Can anyone advise where I can get information on the births and marriages for the Clough area of Antrim circa 1800/1815. I am researching the McCambridge family around the late 1700's and the early 1800's. I have a birth for 1810 (John) and would like to establish who his parents were. Mary _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

Both schools closed some time ago. The building that was St. Patrick's National which used to be a flour mill, at the turn of the last century I imagine, was demolished. The adjacent building that was St. Patrick's Christian Brothers is now a heritage centre. And North Queen Street has all changed with the west link and the removal of Victoria Barracks. James ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 3:01 PM Subject: Re: Tryone St ? > Thank you most sincerely, I know the area well, I am so pleased....is the > school still going, my Murrays were in North Queen st., so it ties up, many > thanks....Maureen >

Thank you most sincerely, I know the area well, I am so pleased....is the school still going, my Murrays were in North Queen st., so it ties up, many thanks....Maureen

Tyrone street doesn't exist now in Belfast. My mother lived on this street, and I used that street so many times going back and forth to school in Donegall Street. Anyway it was located two streets south west of Clifton Steet. It ran from Hanover Street to Stanhope Street. These Streets too are gone to make way for the west link. The best way I can locate it now is, find Carlisle Circus at the intersection of Clifton St., Antrim Rd. and Crumlin Rd. Just south you will see the Orange Hall which still exists. Tryone Street was two streets to the west of this location. The closest existing street now is Trinity St. which is now not very long but still comes out on to Clifton St. Good luck. James ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alfie Mc Allister" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 03, 2002 12:05 PM Subject: Re: Tryone St ? > Sorry cant tell you where abouts Tyrone St. is in Belfast but here is a site > that has a street map of Belfast where you might be able to find the street. > www.belfast.net/mo There is also a lot of other stuff on Belfast. > Cheers Alfie > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > >

Thank you very much Alfie, thats a great help, shall look up right away....Maureen

Sorry cant tell you where abouts Tyrone St. is in Belfast but here is a site that has a street map of Belfast where you might be able to find the street. www.belfast.net/mo There is also a lot of other stuff on Belfast. Cheers Alfie

Would anyone know where Tyrone Street in Belfast was and have a census for 1850s-1860s for the area, I would really appreciate any help....Maureen

Jane: Once again I thank you for sharing with us who live across the waters in Canada! I am finding that I am getting a broader scope on what is and what isn't available to people doing their Irish Genealogy. Job well done!! I have been searching for my MARK people who came to Canada in 1832 but have been running up against a brick wall with them. I have a transport document.....but of course, My Relative is the only one who has not got the ----- arriving from ::::: filled in! I have heard that the Mark family came from Antrim County but have not been able to nail this down. I am wondering what documentation I should be searching for within Ireland that can open a couple of doors for me. Any advice or direction would be greatly appreciated!! Thank you Jane.

Hi Jane, Can't imagine the size and amount of work you have done with such a large job. It is greatly appreciated. I will check with the Morman Church as you suggested but wonder if you have the time to give me any clues about the Faulkner family of County Antrim. My g grandfather, Adam Faulkner, was born October 31, 1837 in County Antrim to William Faulkner and Ann(e) Holmes. He supposedly had a brother William and a brother George. I know you must be very busy but would appreciate any suggestions you might have about them. Thanks for all your work. Dorothy Faulkner Leinhauser [email protected] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jane Lyons" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2002 12:57 PM Subject: From Ireland or a county and you don't know where > There has been talk recently on some lists relating to Irish birth, marriage > and death records and last week I had begun something in relation to what > you can do with information that is easily available to you (not parish > records). I'm going to forward this to the Armagh and Cavan and Laois lists > because it was on them that BDM records have been mentioned, I'm posting it > to the Antrim list because I have Antrim well covered on my BDM pages and > then I'm posting to two rootsweb lists that I am admin for - Leix and > Monaghan > > I don't want to overload people's mail boxes if they are subbed to all these > lists, so, this and only two other posts relating to one common surname in > one county will go to Antrim, Armagh and Cavan and Laois. People will have > some bit of an idea of what can be done once I finish with the first surname > which is a county specific example. These mails are geared towards those > who don't knwo where in a county their ancestors came from, though they may > hold a few new points for others ;-) > > This is in some ways a rehash of what I posted last week, it is definitely a > thread I have posted to the mail lists over the years - in one form or > another....but it is not the same......... > > There are a number of resources which can be used to give us some idea of > which part of Ireland or a county a surname was found in - and, > unfortunately, while these resources are easily available to anyone who has > a Family History Centre in their locality, some of them are not used for a > number of reasons. I think, perhaps the main reason is a lack of > understanding of their value to a researcher. I imagine with civil records, > it is because most believe that civil records can hold no value to them and > then, there are all our land divisions - some of which I had never heard of > until I got into genealogy - and some of which mean nothing today, but many > of which people will include in every post they make re their ancestors - > townlands, baronies, parishes (civil and religious) Poor Law Unions, > Registrar's Districts, Superintendant Regisrar's Districts, District > Electoral Divisions, Counties, Provinces - and as for where is where - > there's northern Ireland and sourthern Ireland - and Ulster, that's a > province composed of nine counties - but only six of them are in northern > Ireland and the rest in southern Ireland - *but* Donegal lies right beside > Tyrone - and Tyrone, that's in Northern Ireland but Donegal - that's in > Southern Ireland........ > > Mind boggling - the lot................!! > > Divisions are needed depending on what you are looking at - and what > information you do have on your ancestors..........and the more you have and > are listing everywhere - then the more you will confuse yourself. > > So, we're going to try and simplify some things - I'm going to try and show > you how something like Irish civil records can be of some help to you, > regardless of when your ancestors left Ireland. We're going to try and see > how much information is really available on the internet if you know the > right words to look for - we're going to have a bit of a go at comparing > information on the Griffiths cd which so many have, and use to do look ups > for other people, with the information that can be had simply by looking at > some names in the Householder's Index - that is the Griffiths and Tithes > surname index for each county. > > What is known as the Griffiths Valuation was an assessment of land and > property carried out in the 1850's+ and this gives us some idea of the names > of people who were leasing land at that time. The Tithes were another tax > and the Tithe Applotment books predate Griffiths usually by about 20 years. > > Civil registration began for non-catholic marriages in 1845 and then became > compulsory for all, births, deaths and marriages from 1864 onwards. > > We therefore have 2-3 time frames to work with - *and* names did disappear > from a civil parish or a townland between the time of the Tithes and the > Griffiths. This, is not shown on the Griffiths cd - which is lacking in > other ways as well - but, the Grifiths cd is, nevertheless, an important > research tool - as an initial guide. What I want to know is whether or not > surname variations are included in this cd. > > I have begun a table with surnames on it and I will show you this when I'm > finished - I began with not too many surnames and last time I looked it had > increased to 52 - including variations as I come across them in a county and > listed in the Householders index - on my table I am noting whether the name > occured in both the Griffiths and Tithes within a county - or just one. One > tells us that the name had either appeared in the intervening years, or thta > someone of that surname had acquired more land (if listed in Griffiths and > not Tithes) there is also the possibililty that someone of that name had > moved in or out of that area........ > > When I finish with that table, I'd like to compare it with what I have found > in civil records for those surnames. > > Everything is guesswork however............but some guesswork is better than > some other guesswork > > I have a friend who is interested in his own surname as well as a few more - > he had copies of parish records from Ireland with that surname on them, so > he was lucky..........I found one reference in the civil registers to his > surname..........the name no longer is found here. Yet, one day reading > through postings on the County Cork mail list I spotted that surname again - > I think it was Margaret Moon made the 1766 census posts? and they are now on > Margaret Grogans web site. Anyway - the surname was in Co. Cork in 1766 - > the parish was right noext door to the Waterford parish that my friend knew > his family came from - and so, we had an earlier date and obviously the > family moved across the border - or else, because they were not Catholics - > their church was in Co. Waterford - that is the closest one of their > religion. > > Small things can count and remembering not to pen the family in to one area > is important. > > Common surnames - there's not a lot can be done with them - but if you have > two surnames together, then that help eliminate places. > > Once you are into parish records, then it can become a whole different ball > game. > > First or Christian names - they can tell us a lot too,- or, I think so. I > see all of this 'Irish naming pattern' being passed about the web and to > tell the truth I can't honestly say I've seen much of the way it's said to > go in what I've seen of records - the first son and the first > daughter..........and maybe the second son and daughter - well, they're > probably going to have been called after the Grandparents nad parents all > right but after that - you're into no man's land - a brother a sister, a > favourite person, a dead child................ > > There's nothing definitive and too many variables and too many common names. > > It's the less common names that you have to home in on - the least common > surname in your tree - the least common first names - that's your best shot. > > My objectives with these posts will be to show you that by using the civil > records and the Householders index you can find a number of places in > Ireland that a surname was found - in that, you can say my ansectors came > from here or there - take teh most common place for a name as your main area > to begin research in and then work your way out to the other places for > which there seem to have been fewer records of that surname. > > The surnames I work with are irrelevant - it's in how I play with them, or > say what I can see and the guesswork from what I can see that is important. > > In my Householder's Index table, I use surnames that I don't use in the > mails - I want to make sure that everyone realises that nothing is definite > in all of this - there is no proof, there cannot be any statistical > analysis, not really.........just a bit of a play at things > > So. over the next while, I'll show you a few scenarios........ > > A few surnames to a county or counties...........usually the unusual kind > > the changes in a surname spelling over time here in Ireland - how it was one > way in earlier years and how it's not that way now. Spellings can be used to > cut out a few places or home in on somewhere before the other depending on > the time frame > > A common enough surname or two - not of the O'Brien or Kelly variety which > is everywhere - but some others found in a few counties. > > A surname that I know to be found and have been found in Kerry and for which > I have found no reference in the Griffiths or Tithes in Kerry - and none in > civil registration either. > > I'd like to show some things re an odd first name or two - re-invent the old > family naming pattern a bit maybe ;-) > > All in all, nothing conclusive - but guidelines, always remembering that > most names were probably found somewhere in a county. What we want to do is > try to work out ways to try and help those who haven't got a clue and who > are totally confused re the various Irish divisions. > > I think, there are more of those about than the other. > > Jane > > > > > > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

There has been talk recently on some lists relating to Irish birth, marriage and death records and last week I had begun something in relation to what you can do with information that is easily available to you (not parish records). I'm going to forward this to the Armagh and Cavan and Laois lists because it was on them that BDM records have been mentioned, I'm posting it to the Antrim list because I have Antrim well covered on my BDM pages and then I'm posting to two rootsweb lists that I am admin for - Leix and Monaghan I don't want to overload people's mail boxes if they are subbed to all these lists, so, this and only two other posts relating to one common surname in one county will go to Antrim, Armagh and Cavan and Laois. People will have some bit of an idea of what can be done once I finish with the first surname which is a county specific example. These mails are geared towards those who don't knwo where in a county their ancestors came from, though they may hold a few new points for others ;-) This is in some ways a rehash of what I posted last week, it is definitely a thread I have posted to the mail lists over the years - in one form or another....but it is not the same......... There are a number of resources which can be used to give us some idea of which part of Ireland or a county a surname was found in - and, unfortunately, while these resources are easily available to anyone who has a Family History Centre in their locality, some of them are not used for a number of reasons. I think, perhaps the main reason is a lack of understanding of their value to a researcher. I imagine with civil records, it is because most believe that civil records can hold no value to them and then, there are all our land divisions - some of which I had never heard of until I got into genealogy - and some of which mean nothing today, but many of which people will include in every post they make re their ancestors - townlands, baronies, parishes (civil and religious) Poor Law Unions, Registrar's Districts, Superintendant Regisrar's Districts, District Electoral Divisions, Counties, Provinces - and as for where is where - there's northern Ireland and sourthern Ireland - and Ulster, that's a province composed of nine counties - but only six of them are in northern Ireland and the rest in southern Ireland - *but* Donegal lies right beside Tyrone - and Tyrone, that's in Northern Ireland but Donegal - that's in Southern Ireland........ Mind boggling - the lot................!! Divisions are needed depending on what you are looking at - and what information you do have on your ancestors..........and the more you have and are listing everywhere - then the more you will confuse yourself. So, we're going to try and simplify some things - I'm going to try and show you how something like Irish civil records can be of some help to you, regardless of when your ancestors left Ireland. We're going to try and see how much information is really available on the internet if you know the right words to look for - we're going to have a bit of a go at comparing information on the Griffiths cd which so many have, and use to do look ups for other people, with the information that can be had simply by looking at some names in the Householder's Index - that is the Griffiths and Tithes surname index for each county. What is known as the Griffiths Valuation was an assessment of land and property carried out in the 1850's+ and this gives us some idea of the names of people who were leasing land at that time. The Tithes were another tax and the Tithe Applotment books predate Griffiths usually by about 20 years. Civil registration began for non-catholic marriages in 1845 and then became compulsory for all, births, deaths and marriages from 1864 onwards. We therefore have 2-3 time frames to work with - *and* names did disappear from a civil parish or a townland between the time of the Tithes and the Griffiths. This, is not shown on the Griffiths cd - which is lacking in other ways as well - but, the Grifiths cd is, nevertheless, an important research tool - as an initial guide. What I want to know is whether or not surname variations are included in this cd. I have begun a table with surnames on it and I will show you this when I'm finished - I began with not too many surnames and last time I looked it had increased to 52 - including variations as I come across them in a county and listed in the Householders index - on my table I am noting whether the name occured in both the Griffiths and Tithes within a county - or just one. One tells us that the name had either appeared in the intervening years, or thta someone of that surname had acquired more land (if listed in Griffiths and not Tithes) there is also the possibililty that someone of that name had moved in or out of that area........ When I finish with that table, I'd like to compare it with what I have found in civil records for those surnames. Everything is guesswork however............but some guesswork is better than some other guesswork I have a friend who is interested in his own surname as well as a few more - he had copies of parish records from Ireland with that surname on them, so he was lucky..........I found one reference in the civil registers to his surname..........the name no longer is found here. Yet, one day reading through postings on the County Cork mail list I spotted that surname again - I think it was Margaret Moon made the 1766 census posts? and they are now on Margaret Grogans web site. Anyway - the surname was in Co. Cork in 1766 - the parish was right noext door to the Waterford parish that my friend knew his family came from - and so, we had an earlier date and obviously the family moved across the border - or else, because they were not Catholics - their church was in Co. Waterford - that is the closest one of their religion. Small things can count and remembering not to pen the family in to one area is important. Common surnames - there's not a lot can be done with them - but if you have two surnames together, then that help eliminate places. Once you are into parish records, then it can become a whole different ball game. First or Christian names - they can tell us a lot too,- or, I think so. I see all of this 'Irish naming pattern' being passed about the web and to tell the truth I can't honestly say I've seen much of the way it's said to go in what I've seen of records - the first son and the first daughter..........and maybe the second son and daughter - well, they're probably going to have been called after the Grandparents nad parents all right but after that - you're into no man's land - a brother a sister, a favourite person, a dead child................ There's nothing definitive and too many variables and too many common names. It's the less common names that you have to home in on - the least common surname in your tree - the least common first names - that's your best shot. My objectives with these posts will be to show you that by using the civil records and the Householders index you can find a number of places in Ireland that a surname was found - in that, you can say my ansectors came from here or there - take teh most common place for a name as your main area to begin research in and then work your way out to the other places for which there seem to have been fewer records of that surname. The surnames I work with are irrelevant - it's in how I play with them, or say what I can see and the guesswork from what I can see that is important. In my Householder's Index table, I use surnames that I don't use in the mails - I want to make sure that everyone realises that nothing is definite in all of this - there is no proof, there cannot be any statistical analysis, not really.........just a bit of a play at things So. over the next while, I'll show you a few scenarios........ A few surnames to a county or counties...........usually the unusual kind the changes in a surname spelling over time here in Ireland - how it was one way in earlier years and how it's not that way now. Spellings can be used to cut out a few places or home in on somewhere before the other depending on the time frame A common enough surname or two - not of the O'Brien or Kelly variety which is everywhere - but some others found in a few counties. A surname that I know to be found and have been found in Kerry and for which I have found no reference in the Griffiths or Tithes in Kerry - and none in civil registration either. I'd like to show some things re an odd first name or two - re-invent the old family naming pattern a bit maybe ;-) All in all, nothing conclusive - but guidelines, always remembering that most names were probably found somewhere in a county. What we want to do is try to work out ways to try and help those who haven't got a clue and who are totally confused re the various Irish divisions. I think, there are more of those about than the other. Jane

Jane, what you are doing is wonderful...but...I have a problem with records before 1750! I am particularly searching for DUFF families in N. Ireland from c. 1690 to 1750. Primary Christian name is Samuel Duff. He was born ca. 1712?, married ca. 1742. He is found in NC Colony by 1757. Do you plan to cover the 1700-1750 time period? If not, do you know of a good source I can search? I live over 150 miles from a 'good' genealogy library, so most of my research is by mail and internet sources. Appreciate any help/suggestions you can provide. Regards, Bonnie Duff-Smith