Could someone explain to me the meaning of the following sentence that I copied from the text of Siegfried's email. "These records are mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low German) words." Jim -----Original Message----- >From: rpleimancpa@yahoo.com >Sent: Sep 25, 2006 6:08 AM >To: NIEDERSACHSEN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [NIEDERSACHSEN] Records for St. Johann's in Alfhausen > >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > >Classification: Query > >Message Board URL: > >http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/ZVC.2ACE/1861.2617.2702.1.3.1 > >Message Board Post: > >Moe, > >1. I have *not* found a parish census record for any given year in the St. Johann records. However, there is a civil map from the 1700s which includes an index of all land owners. Sorry, I don't have the CDs handy, so I can't check on exactly what year the map was drawn. > >2. These records contain witnesses for nearly all baptisms, marriages and burials. The level of detail, such as including parents names, places people are from ... depends on the priest. Some priests write more than others. These records are mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low German) words. So far, I've found the quality of writing to be quite good; I've been able to translate everything except for the cause of death, when given. > >3. I don't recall if that particular Fuesting marriage record contained the parent's name. I don't think it did ... otherwise I would have found a way to connect this person to someone else in the records. Note, however, I just looked at the Fuesting records to help another researcher. I am not researching this name. > >4. St. Johann, Alfhausen records: > >These records contain actual scans, JPEG files, of all of the available baptism, marriage and burial records from about 1679 to 1903. Herr Smid indexed all of these names into MS Word and Word Perfect files. His compilation also includes the above described map and a listing of the emigrants. These documents / files can be purchased on CDs or a DVD. It is an amazing collection. > >You can find a description of the CD / DVD contents and costs at Herr Smid's website: > >www.sjsmid.nl > >His contact info is: > >s.j.smid@hccnet.nl >Siegfried Smid, >Dorpsstraat 9, >9462 PJ, Gasselte, >Netherlands > >Hope this answers your questions. Write again if you need more info. > >***** >I would like to obtain a copy of the 800 year Celebration for the church. How can I get this? Willing to pay photo copy charges ... or purchase the book from St. Johann's if you know of contact info and availability. > >Thanks > >Becky > > > >_____________________________ >To contact the list admin send an email to: NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jim, I am not a linguist ... but I think this is how it works in these 17th-19th century German records. Latin was the *written* language of the Church and learned persons up to the 19th century. As a result, most of these early records are in Latin. This also applies to other German and French churches and *even* American Catholic church records that I have read from this period. However, Latin is an ancient language and didn't keep up with the increase in literacy in one's spoken language, and the increase in vocabulary resulting from improved knowledge of science, medicine, etc. and the normal changes that occur with language. So, what I have found in the St. Johann church records, for example, is: 1) The basic baptism-marriage-burial data, including names, is in Latin. 2) Other data, such as occupation, place names, cause of death, is in the local language, in this case German (both High and Low). The first time I saw the local Catholic church records, here in Ohio, I was amazed. Most of the local priests were imported from somewhere in Germany, for the German community and from somewhere in France, for the French community. They followed the tradition they had used in the 'old' country ... writing in a combination of Latin and German or French to record the data for the event. Locally, it appears that this continued until the early 20th century when the priests were trained in the US. One 90-something gentleman recently told me that they stopped teaching in German in 1919, the first year he went to school in Auglaize Co. Ohio. Before then, they spoke Low German in Church and in the classroom, but used books written in High German. Low vs. High German. Low German was spoken in my primary area of research: Kingdom of Hannover and the Grand Duchy of Oldenburg. Most people tell me that Low German (platt) is not a written language. I tend to disagree. Maybe they mean that books were not normally written in Low German. However, I find Low German words in these records, both in Germany and here in America. Since I don't have a Low German dictionary it can take a bit of time to translate. High German is the language of modern Germany. However, I understand that there is a 'movement' in Germany today to retain the Low German language in written and spoken usage. Hope this helps. Becky --- "Calf. Auto & Truck Spec." <catsauto@earthlink.net> wrote: > Could someone explain to me the meaning of the > following sentence that I copied from the text of > Siegfried's email. > "These records are > mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low > German) words." > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > >From: rpleimancpa@yahoo.com > >Sent: Sep 25, 2006 6:08 AM > >To: NIEDERSACHSEN-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [NIEDERSACHSEN] Records for St. > Johann's in Alfhausen > > > >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to > this mailing list. > > > >Classification: Query > > > >Message Board URL: > > > >http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/ZVC.2ACE/1861.2617.2702.1.3.1 > > > >Message Board Post: > > > >Moe, > > > >1. I have *not* found a parish census record for > any given year in the St. Johann records. However, > there is a civil map from the 1700s which includes > an index of all land owners. Sorry, I don't have > the CDs handy, so I can't check on exactly what year > the map was drawn. > > > >2. These records contain witnesses for nearly all > baptisms, marriages and burials. The level of > detail, such as including parents names, places > people are from ... depends on the priest. Some > priests write more than others. These records are > mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low > German) words. So far, I've found the quality of > writing to be quite good; I've been able to > translate everything except for the cause of death, > when given. > > > >3. I don't recall if that particular Fuesting > marriage record contained the parent's name. I > don't think it did ... otherwise I would have found > a way to connect this person to someone else in the > records. Note, however, I just looked at the > Fuesting records to help another researcher. I am > not researching this name. > > > >4. St. Johann, Alfhausen records: > > > >These records contain actual scans, JPEG files, of > all of the available baptism, marriage and burial > records from about 1679 to 1903. Herr Smid indexed > all of these names into MS Word and Word Perfect > files. His compilation also includes the above > described map and a listing of the emigrants. These > documents / files can be purchased on CDs or a DVD. > It is an amazing collection. > > > >You can find a description of the CD / DVD contents > and costs at Herr Smid's website: > > > >www.sjsmid.nl > > > >His contact info is: > > > >s.j.smid@hccnet.nl > >Siegfried Smid, > >Dorpsstraat 9, > >9462 PJ, Gasselte, > >Netherlands > > > >Hope this answers your questions. Write again if > you need more info. > > > >***** > >I would like to obtain a copy of the 800 year > Celebration for the church. How can I get this? > Willing to pay photo copy charges ... or purchase > the book from St. Johann's if you know of contact > info and availability. > > > >Thanks > > > >Becky > > > > > > > >_____________________________ > >To contact the list admin send an email to: > NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > _____________________________ > To contact the list admin send an email to: > NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email > to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word > 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message >

World War I put an end to most of the German usage. It wasn't patriotic to use German. It's too bad I wasn't able to learn it from my parents and grandparents. They only used it when they didn't want us to know what they were talking about. Ethel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Becky Pleiman" <rpleimancpa@yahoo.com> To: "Calf. Auto & Truck Spec." <catsauto@earthlink.net>; <niedersachsen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [NIEDERSACHSEN] Records for St. Johann's in Alfhausen > Jim, > > I am not a linguist ... but I think this is how it > works in these 17th-19th century German records. > > Latin was the *written* language of the Church and > learned persons up to the 19th century. As a result, > most of these early records are in Latin. This also > applies to other German and French churches and *even* > American Catholic church records that I have read from > this period. > > However, Latin is an ancient language and didn't keep > up with the increase in literacy in one's spoken > language, and the increase in vocabulary resulting > from improved knowledge of science, medicine, etc. and > the normal changes that occur with language. So, what > I have found in the St. Johann church records, for > example, is: > > 1) The basic baptism-marriage-burial data, including > names, is in Latin. > 2) Other data, such as occupation, place names, cause > of death, is in the local language, in this case > German (both High and Low). > > The first time I saw the local Catholic church > records, here in Ohio, I was amazed. Most of the > local priests were imported from somewhere in Germany, > for the German community and from somewhere in France, > for the French community. They followed the tradition > they had used in the 'old' country ... writing in a > combination of Latin and German or French to record > the data for the event. > > Locally, it appears that this continued until the > early 20th century when the priests were trained in > the US. One 90-something gentleman recently told me > that they stopped teaching in German in 1919, the > first year he went to school in Auglaize Co. Ohio. > Before then, they spoke Low German in Church and in > the classroom, but used books written in High German. > > Low vs. High German. Low German was spoken in my > primary area of research: Kingdom of Hannover and the > Grand Duchy of Oldenburg. Most people tell me that > Low German (platt) is not a written language. I tend > to disagree. Maybe they mean that books were not > normally written in Low German. However, I find Low > German words in these records, both in Germany and > here in America. Since I don't have a Low German > dictionary it can take a bit of time to translate. > > High German is the language of modern Germany. > However, I understand that there is a 'movement' in > Germany today to retain the Low German language in > written and spoken usage. > > Hope this helps. > > Becky > > --- "Calf. Auto & Truck Spec." > <catsauto@earthlink.net> wrote: > >> Could someone explain to me the meaning of the >> following sentence that I copied from the text of >> Siegfried's email. >> "These records are >> mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low >> German) words." >> Jim >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: rpleimancpa@yahoo.com >> >Sent: Sep 25, 2006 6:08 AM >> >To: NIEDERSACHSEN-L@rootsweb.com >> >Subject: Re: [NIEDERSACHSEN] Records for St. >> Johann's in Alfhausen >> > >> >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to >> this mailing list. >> > >> >Classification: Query >> > >> >Message Board URL: >> > >> >>http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/ZVC.2ACE/1861.2617.2702.1.3.1 >> > >> >Message Board Post: >> > >> >Moe, >> > >> >1. I have *not* found a parish census record for >> any given year in the St. Johann records. However, >> there is a civil map from the 1700s which includes >> an index of all land owners. Sorry, I don't have >> the CDs handy, so I can't check on exactly what year >> the map was drawn. >> > >> >2. These records contain witnesses for nearly all >> baptisms, marriages and burials. The level of >> detail, such as including parents names, places >> people are from ... depends on the priest. Some >> priests write more than others. These records are >> mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low >> German) words. So far, I've found the quality of >> writing to be quite good; I've been able to >> translate everything except for the cause of death, >> when given. >> > >> >3. I don't recall if that particular Fuesting >> marriage record contained the parent's name. I >> don't think it did ... otherwise I would have found >> a way to connect this person to someone else in the >> records. Note, however, I just looked at the >> Fuesting records to help another researcher. I am >> not researching this name. >> > >> >4. St. Johann, Alfhausen records: >> > >> >These records contain actual scans, JPEG files, of >> all of the available baptism, marriage and burial >> records from about 1679 to 1903. Herr Smid indexed >> all of these names into MS Word and Word Perfect >> files. His compilation also includes the above >> described map and a listing of the emigrants. These >> documents / files can be purchased on CDs or a DVD. >> It is an amazing collection. >> > >> >You can find a description of the CD / DVD contents >> and costs at Herr Smid's website: >> > >> >www.sjsmid.nl >> > >> >His contact info is: >> > >> >s.j.smid@hccnet.nl >> >Siegfried Smid, >> >Dorpsstraat 9, >> >9462 PJ, Gasselte, >> >Netherlands >> > >> >Hope this answers your questions. Write again if >> you need more info. >> > >> >***** >> >I would like to obtain a copy of the 800 year >> Celebration for the church. How can I get this? >> Willing to pay photo copy charges ... or purchase >> the book from St. Johann's if you know of contact >> info and availability. >> > >> >Thanks >> > >> >Becky >> > >> > >> > >> >_____________________________ >> >To contact the list admin send an email to: >> NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com >> >------------------------------- >> >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >> to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> >> _____________________________ >> To contact the list admin send an email to: >> NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >> to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> > > _____________________________ > To contact the list admin send an email to: > NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ethel, My understanding is, also, that WWI, put an end to speaking, learning German. Hence, my 90-something friend, went to school for the first time in 1919, only to find that it would be taught in English. The year after WWI ended. He grew up speaking platt-deutsch and still speaks it, along with English. Unfortunately, now when I ask him a question and ask him to respond in his first language ... he answers in a combination of Low German and English. His hearing is so limited, I can't get him to hold the thought ... respond in Low German. What a bummer. The loss to us ... not being able to speak, read or write ... let alone translate ... our ancetral language is a huge loss. Becky PS IMHO (in my humble opinion), the greater issue for most 21st century born, USA-ian workers, is that they *are* not multi-lingual. The ability to read /write / speak more than one language is critical in being successful in many careers. -Please, no more wars. -Please, no more ethnic cleansing. -Please, accept people for who they are, not where they came from or your initial thoughts about why they are different from you, including their ability to speak American English or their accent. -Please, accept people who don't speak perfect English or speak with a foreign accent. They deserve to be treated with respect. They are human beings. ... These immigrants, semi-Emglish speakers, are just like your ancestors.

Hi Jim, it means that the priest wrote some words in Latin i. e. testes for witnesses or filius for son, other words were written in German. I can't see any Low German (Plattdeutsch) in the records, but a lot of it is written in the old German Script. Regards Renate in Germany ----- Original Message ----- From: "Calf. Auto & Truck Spec." <catsauto@earthlink.net> To: <niedersachsen@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [NIEDERSACHSEN] Records for St. Johann's in Alfhausen > Could someone explain to me the meaning of the following sentence that I copied from the text of Siegfried's email. > "These records are > mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low German) words." > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > >From: rpleimancpa@yahoo.com > >Sent: Sep 25, 2006 6:08 AM > >To: NIEDERSACHSEN-L@rootsweb.com > >Subject: Re: [NIEDERSACHSEN] Records for St. Johann's in Alfhausen > > > >This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > >Classification: Query > > > >Message Board URL: > > > >http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/ZVC.2ACE/1861.2617.2702.1.3.1 > > > >Message Board Post: > > > >Moe, > > > >1. I have *not* found a parish census record for any given year in the St. Johann records. However, there is a civil map from the 1700s which includes an index of all land owners. Sorry, I don't have the CDs handy, so I can't check on exactly what year the map was drawn. > > > >2. These records contain witnesses for nearly all baptisms, marriages and burials. The level of detail, such as including parents names, places people are from ... depends on the priest. Some priests write more than others. These records are mostly in Latin with a lot of German (probably Low German) words. So far, I've found the quality of writing to be quite good; I've been able to translate everything except for the cause of death, when given. > > > >3. I don't recall if that particular Fuesting marriage record contained the parent's name. I don't think it did ... otherwise I would have found a way to connect this person to someone else in the records. Note, however, I just looked at the Fuesting records to help another researcher. I am not researching this name. > > > >4. St. Johann, Alfhausen records: > > > >These records contain actual scans, JPEG files, of all of the available baptism, marriage and burial records from about 1679 to 1903. Herr Smid indexed all of these names into MS Word and Word Perfect files. His compilation also includes the above described map and a listing of the emigrants. These documents / files can be purchased on CDs or a DVD. It is an amazing collection. > > > >You can find a description of the CD / DVD contents and costs at Herr Smid's website: > > > >www.sjsmid.nl > > > >His contact info is: > > > >s.j.smid@hccnet.nl > >Siegfried Smid, > >Dorpsstraat 9, > >9462 PJ, Gasselte, > >Netherlands > > > >Hope this answers your questions. Write again if you need more info. > > > >***** > >I would like to obtain a copy of the 800 year Celebration for the church. How can I get this? Willing to pay photo copy charges ... or purchase the book from St. Johann's if you know of contact info and availability. > > > >Thanks > > > >Becky > > > > > > > >_____________________________ > >To contact the list admin send an email to: NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com > >------------------------------- > >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _____________________________ > To contact the list admin send an email to: NIEDERSACHSEN-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to NIEDERSACHSEN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message