Jenelle pointed out that while Ancestry was down I should try FreeCEN. It came up trumps for 1871. Then I got my ancestry connection back and found further entries. If I'd had my Ancestry connection before, I would never have pestered the list with my emails. It turns out that Sober's parents John & Ann took their family from Penrith to Sunderland, appearing at South Hylton, Durham in 1851 and Sunderland (Bishopwearmouth) in 1861 and by 1871 Sober was at Sunderland with his own family with only Arthur yet to be born. 02 Apr 1871 Census of England & Wales @ 4 Brougham Street, St Peters Bishopwearmouth, Co. Durham Sober Armstrong COLLINS Head Marr 28 House Joiner b. Penrith, Cumberland Mary Jane COLLINS Wife Marr 25 b. Sunderland, Durham John Wm COLLINS Son 02 b. Sunderland, Durham Alfred COLLINS Son 01 b.Sunderland, Durham Peter -----Original Message----- From: Peter Dillon Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 3:37 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [nz] NEW-ZEALAND Digest, Vol 12, Issue 37 These will be all three brothers I feel. FreeBMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ Births 3Q 1868, COLLINS John William, DOUGLASS Sunderland, 10a 512 Births 2Q 1870, COLLINS Alfred, DOUGLASS, Sunderland 10a, 575 Births 4Q 1876 COLLINS Arthur, DOUGLASS, Stockton 10a, 61 Probate Sober Armstrong COLLINS wife: Mary Jane 3 sons: John William COLLINS Alfred COLLINS Arthur COLLINS Died at Kaikoura while visiting son 2 Dec 1910 https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/TS19101223.2.17?query="sober armstrong collins" heathcote Star, Issue 10035, 23 December 1910, p.1 OBITUARY One of the oldest residents of Heathcote Valley, Mr Sober Armstrong Collins, passed away at his son's residence, Torquay Street, Kaikoura, on Friday, December 2. Deceased, who was born at Penrith, Cumberland; came to New Zealand with his family in the Crusader in 1879, and settled at Heathcote Valley. He was engaged in the building trade, and was always noted for the thoroughness of his work. He was closely connected with the Methodist Church, and was an ardent supporter of any effort for the uplifting of his fellow men. Though he took no active part in public life, he will long be remembered for his generosity and hospitality. He left a widow and three sons, all of whom are married. The funeral took place in Kaikoura on December 5, the Rev W. M'Ara officiating. A memorial service was conducted in the Heathcote Methodist Church on Sunday by the Rev J. N. Buttle, and was largely attended. Have discovered that Sober is in Canterbury Museum's online index as Soba. Card definitely says Sober. Basically repeats information in the newspapers. Of course, none of the above actually conforms that Sober was the father of Arthur COLLINS who married Mary Louisa WEBB in 1904, but it is known that the latter Arthur was born about 1876 and his wife said in her affidavit in his probate that he said he was born Sunderland. Still, I've been undone by great looking red herrings in the past, so I hope this isn't another one. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Peter Dillon Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 3:08 PM To: Julie Collins-Skellern ; [email protected] Subject: Re: [nz] NEW-ZEALAND Digest, Vol 12, Issue 37 I have used the GRO site in the past to occasionally order a cert but hadn't realised about their new free index, so thanks for that Julie. There's another Arthur born that year in Co. Durham but not Sunderland R.D. Births 4Q 1876 COLLINS Arthur, Stockton 10a, 61 And the new GRO indexes show that his mother's name was DOUGLASS , just what the doctor ordered, brilliant. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Julie Collins-Skellern Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 2:17 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [nz] NEW-ZEALAND Digest, Vol 12, Issue 37 The new GRO Indexes which show mother’s maiden name has Arthur COLLINS DecQ Sunderland, to mother, surnamed KEENAN! There are 116 Arthur COLLINS’ born in a five year period in the UK around that time. My maiden name is COLLINS, but I’m not related. Just saw the name, and applied some additional information. I could suggest other avenues, that *don’t* rely on merely looking at other peoples’ trees, but I don;t know what research you’ve otherwie undertaken. Julie On 1/02/2017, at 1:54 PM, [email protected] wrote: Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2017 13:54:10 +1300 From: Peter Dillon <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> To: <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> Subject: [nz] Sober COLLINS Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I?m trying to discover for sure the parents of Arthur COLLINS who married Mary Louisa WEBB in 1904. It looks like he was probably the son of Sober Armstrong COLLINS who lived at Heathcote Valley in Christchurch having arrived in Canterbury in 1879 on the ship Crusader with his wife Mary Jane and sons John William, Alfred and Arthur. I can?t find the passenger list at Familysearch but the family is in a passenger list in the newspapers. Can anyone confirm that Arthur is the son of Sober? Online trees about Sober says he was born at Penrith Cumberland, which appears to be correct. The odd tree that has Arthur (no parents given) has him born at Penrith too. However his widow Mary Louisa in an affidavit in his 1944 probate said that her husband told her he was born at Sunderland. In fact Sober was born and baptised at Penrith and is sure to be Sober Armstrong COLLINS married to Mary Ann DOUGLASS registered at Sunderland registration district in 1867. Probably all three sons were registered Sunderland when they were born. John William was the eldest son according to Sober?s 1910 probate. FreeBMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ <https://www.freebmd.org.uk/> Births 1Q 1843, COLLINS Sober Armstrong, Penrith 25, 139 https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5CJ-R5W <https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5CJ-R5W> Sober Armstrong COLLINS England Births and Christenings Name Sober Armstrong Collins Gender Male Christening Date 21 Feb 1843 Christening Place SAINT ANDREW, PENRITH, CUMBERLAND, ENGLAND Father's Name John COLLNS Mother's Name Ann Indexing Project (Batch) Number C00302-2 Film number 90653, 90654 FreeBMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ <https://www.freebmd.org.uk/> Marriages 2Q 1867 COLLINS Sober Armstrong, Sunderland 10a, 702 DOUGLASS Mary Jane, Sunderland 10a ,702 FreeBMD https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ <https://www.freebmd.org.uk/> Births 3Q 1868, COLLINS John William Sunderland, 10a 512 Births 2Q 1870, COLLINS Alfred, Sunderland 10a, 575 Births 4Q 1876, COLLINS Arthur, Sunderland 10a, 688 https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/ <https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/> 1944/23481 COLLINS Arthur 68Y [ died 18 May 1944 ] As my final act I was going to check out trees again and census info at Ancestry,com this morning, especially hoping that the census info would dovetail with everything, to avoid the expense of ordering a marriage or death cert for Arthur to confirm his parents as Sober and Mary Jane , but Ancestry.com <http://ancestry.com/> appears to be down at the moment. peter The List Guidelines http://new-zealand-l.blogspot.com/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message