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    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Stephen Bachiler
    2. Chris Brooks
    3. Yes, I believe that the Samuel Bachiler, 'Ecclesiasticum Anglicus' in Recife is the same as child #5, the Samuel who was living at Gorcum, Holland. Chris On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 7:12 AM, Perry Streeter <perry@streeter.com> wrote: > > Does the reference to Stephen Bachiler in Recife, Brazil pertain to this > Stephen Bachiler (or a close kinsman)... > > > http://www.boydhouse.com/michelle/hussey/stephenbachiler.html > > > If yes, you have found some "new" information for Robert Charles > Anderson and his _Great Migration_ publications. > > > I don't have any known connection to the Bachiler family and this is not > something that I will be researching any further but I hope it is valid to > connect these dots for someone's benefit. > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:57:06 -0700 > > From: "Renee L. Dauven" <promine@web-ster.com> > > To: <new-netherland@rootsweb.com> > > Subject: Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives? > > Message-ID: <fa46ee96-70c7-1b1f-0fd9-0a9f0bb7073f@web-ster.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed > > > > Chris, > > > > ??? Interesting.? How is your Latin?? This may be the same fellow then: > > > > 1653 > > > > #831? Friday, 2 [=12, N.S.]? December.? Samuel Bachiler, tunc temporis > > ibidem Eccls. --------(b) Henry Riddiard, and Mary his wife, have lived > > 'for these eighteen yeares last past (or thereabouts) under my ministrie > > in Brazilia'........ (d) [Reciffe?]? (p. 60-61) > > > > ??? This one below is the one which was signed by Henricus Hermanius in > > my previous post. > > > > 1654 > > > > #834 Johannes Canijn and Elisabeth Bachiler his wife (p. 61) > > > > Renee L. Dauven > > > > On 10/24/2017 11:52 AM, Chris Brooks wrote: > > > >> Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler > signed > >> another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English > >> Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. > > <snip? > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Chris Brooks Kansas City, Missouri 816-363-1831

    10/30/2017 07:49:02
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Stephen Bachiler
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. Perry, The references are actually to Samuel, not Stephen, Bachiler but I agree with Chris that this is probably the son listed on the web-page as child #5. Looking at Cor's index to the Recife baptisms, the name appears under several different spellings so this may be fruitful territory for someone. Like you, I have no connection to the family. The index is at: [1]http://brazilindex.pbworks.com/w/page/12076138/FrontPage Renee L. Dauven On 10/30/2017 5:12 AM, Perry Streeter wrote: Does the reference to Stephen Bachiler in Recife, Brazil pertain to this Stephen Bachiler (or a close kinsman)... [2]http://www.boydhouse.com/michelle/hussey/stephenbachiler.html If yes, you have found some "new" information for Robert Charles Anderson and his Great Migration publications. I don't have any known connection to the Bachiler family and this is not something that I will be researching any further but I hope it is valid to connect these dots for someone's benefit. -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:57:06 -0700 From: "Renee L. Dauven" <[3]promine@web-ster.com> To: <[4]new-netherland@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives? Message-ID: <[5]fa46ee96-70c7-1b1f-0fd9-0a9f0bb7073f@web-ster.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Chris, ??? Interesting.? How is your Latin?? This may be the same fellow then: 1653 #831? Friday, 2 [=12, N.S.]? December.? Samuel Bachiler, tunc temporis ibidem Eccls. --------(b) Henry Riddiard, and Mary his wife, have lived 'for these eighteen yeares last past (or thereabouts) under my ministrie in Brazilia'........ (d) [Reciffe?]? (p. 60-61) ??? This one below is the one which was signed by Henricus Hermanius in my previous post. 1654 #834 Johannes Canijn and Elisabeth Bachiler his wife (p. 61) Renee L. Dauven On 10/24/2017 11:52 AM, Chris Brooks wrote: Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler signed another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. <snip? Virus-free. [6]www.avg.com References Visible links 1. http://brazilindex.pbworks.com/w/page/12076138/FrontPage 2. http://www.boydhouse.com/michelle/hussey/stephenbachiler.html 3. mailto:promine@web-ster.com 4. mailto:new-netherland@rootsweb.com 5. mailto:fa46ee96-70c7-1b1f-0fd9-0a9f0bb7073f@web-ster.com 6. http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient Hidden links: 7. http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient 8. file://localhost/tmp/tmpgBpiAF.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2

    10/30/2017 06:49:23
    1. [NEW-NETHERLAND] Stephen Bachiler
    2. Perry Streeter
    3. > Does the reference to Stephen Bachiler in Recife, Brazil pertain to this Stephen Bachiler (or a close kinsman)... > http://www.boydhouse.com/michelle/hussey/stephenbachiler.html > If yes, you have found some "new" information for Robert Charles Anderson and his _Great Migration_ publications. > I don't have any known connection to the Bachiler family and this is not something that I will be researching any further but I hope it is valid to connect these dots for someone's benefit. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2017 12:57:06 -0700 > From: "Renee L. Dauven" <promine@web-ster.com> > To: <new-netherland@rootsweb.com> > Subject: Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives? > Message-ID: <fa46ee96-70c7-1b1f-0fd9-0a9f0bb7073f@web-ster.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed > > Chris, > > ??? Interesting.? How is your Latin?? This may be the same fellow then: > > 1653 > > #831? Friday, 2 [=12, N.S.]? December.? Samuel Bachiler, tunc temporis > ibidem Eccls. --------(b) Henry Riddiard, and Mary his wife, have lived > 'for these eighteen yeares last past (or thereabouts) under my ministrie > in Brazilia'........ (d) [Reciffe?]? (p. 60-61) > > ??? This one below is the one which was signed by Henricus Hermanius in > my previous post. > > 1654 > > #834 Johannes Canijn and Elisabeth Bachiler his wife (p. 61) > > Renee L. Dauven > > On 10/24/2017 11:52 AM, Chris Brooks wrote: > >> Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler signed >> another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English >> Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. <snip?

    10/30/2017 06:12:42
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. Lorine,     I agree!  It kind of reminds one of the good old days.     One last bit...     I did finally manage to track down a bit on C.J. Wasch. Cornelis Jacobus Wasch, b. te Middelburg 24 Dec. 1848, son of Johannes and Johanna Frederika van de Leye, married Joahnna Antonia Gerstnhauer Zimmerman.  He apparently lived circa 1888 in Rijswijk. Liz found an entry in 1889 where CJ and Johanna divorced.  With that my trail has so far ended but under his full name, he did publish other articles.     For a while, when  I was finding nothing, I was entertaining the idea that "C. J. Wasch" never actually existed but was a nom de plume used by a woman who wanted to hide her gender. Renee L. Dauven On 10/24/2017 4:31 PM, Olive Tree Genealogy wrote: > It is incredibly wonderful/awesome etc to see two things: > > 1. The New Netherland mailing list in a hive of activity!! > > 2. Amazing discussion between very knowledgeable genealogists AND a sort-of > resolution to the original question :-) > > This makes me happy. Just sayin' >

    10/25/2017 06:33:51
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. Liz and Chris,     I agree that this idea of our manuscript possibly being a sort of master list, a contemporary or near contemporary, compiled of other sources (such as minister's notes and older baptismal record books) does seem to be a logical explanation.  It gives us a pretty good "first" or "best" source but also gives a bit of wiggle room for the possibility of copying errors, i.e.  "Glande" for "Claese", a mistake that I can't see being made by the original writer/minister but one that a copier might make.  It certainly is better than the alternative which is that the manuscript was made in 1888.     It will be interesting to see if I hear from the actual archives and what they may be able to tell us.  I have written to both the Hague and the Central Bureau. Renee L. Dauven On 10/24/2017 3:06 PM, E Johnson wrote: > Chris, > > This makes beautiful sense! > > /.?""

    10/25/2017 06:23:30
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. E Johnson
    3. Thank you for earlier facilitating the cross-platform aspect of the discussion, Lorine. This is a vaulable discussion. It is good to be all on the same page here. I just now posted a brief message on the Dutch-Colonies-list just to tie up any loose ends there concerning these same records, over which there were also a few messages in the last few days. In my post of this evening to that list, I am referring to the main discussion which has been taking place here and which can be found in the archives of this diuscussion list. So now there is a cross-reference in case anyone in the future goes looking for information on this subject in the other list acrhives. Liz J On 24/10/2017, Olive Tree Genealogy <olivetreegenealogy@gmail.com> wrote: > It is incredibly wonderful/awesome etc to see two things: > > 1. The New Netherland mailing list in a hive of activity!! > > 2. Amazing discussion between very knowledgeable genealogists AND a sort-of > resolution to the original question :-) > > This makes me happy. Just sayin'

    10/24/2017 02:08:07
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Olive Tree Genealogy
    3. It is incredibly wonderful/awesome etc to see two things: 1. The New Netherland mailing list in a hive of activity!! 2. Amazing discussion between very knowledgeable genealogists AND a sort-of resolution to the original question :-) This makes me happy. Just sayin' On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 6:06 PM, E Johnson <iris.gates@gmail.com> wrote: > Chris, > > This makes beautiful sense! > > > ...as well as several men who signed documents as 'scribe' of the > > Classis Pernambuchensis. So it may be there were several different > > ministers in the different settlements in Brazil which raises the > question > > as to whether the baptismals records referred to as baptisms of Recife or > > Pernambuco might not be a compilation of baptisms by various ministers > from > > different settlements recorded by a Classis scribe. > > Of course! I had seen one reference to records of what was called > "Recife, Pernambuco" which didn't make sense to me at the time, since > they are two quite separate communities. And then I let it slip under > my radar. But now it makes perfect sense, and of course your idea may > well be the closest there is to what was really happening during the > time these baptisms were happening. Not one set of church records, but > many... complied into one volume at some later date. > > This also makes sense in terms of the beautiful calligraphy in the > records we refer to as the Refife baptisms, and in the consistency of > the handwriting we see in seventeen years' *worth* of records. The > scribe who copied these could have been sitting in some office of the > main Classis in Amsterdam the whole time --or rather scribeS, since > records made after 5 October 1650 were copied into the existing book > in a different and equally consistent hand. > > This might not be the greatest news for anyone who was hoping to see > an absolutely original record (the primary record) that was actually > made at the time the event took place. > > Thank you for posting this here! Now in case another question on this > subject ever comes up again, this will be in the archives of the list > where it can be found as needed. > > Liz J > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Lorine McGinnis Schulze Follow genealogy news on my blog http://olivetreegenealogy.blogspot.com Find me on Twitter http://twitter.com/LorineMS Google+ at https://profiles.google.com/OliveTreeGenealogy Olive Tree Genealogy http://olivetreegenealogy.com

    10/24/2017 01:31:01
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. E Johnson
    3. Chris, This makes beautiful sense! > ...as well as several men who signed documents as 'scribe' of the > Classis Pernambuchensis. So it may be there were several different > ministers in the different settlements in Brazil which raises the question > as to whether the baptismals records referred to as baptisms of Recife or > Pernambuco might not be a compilation of baptisms by various ministers from > different settlements recorded by a Classis scribe. Of course! I had seen one reference to records of what was called "Recife, Pernambuco" which didn't make sense to me at the time, since they are two quite separate communities. And then I let it slip under my radar. But now it makes perfect sense, and of course your idea may well be the closest there is to what was really happening during the time these baptisms were happening. Not one set of church records, but many... complied into one volume at some later date. This also makes sense in terms of the beautiful calligraphy in the records we refer to as the Refife baptisms, and in the consistency of the handwriting we see in seventeen years' *worth* of records. The scribe who copied these could have been sitting in some office of the main Classis in Amsterdam the whole time --or rather scribeS, since records made after 5 October 1650 were copied into the existing book in a different and equally consistent hand. This might not be the greatest news for anyone who was hoping to see an absolutely original record (the primary record) that was actually made at the time the event took place. Thank you for posting this here! Now in case another question on this subject ever comes up again, this will be in the archives of the list where it can be found as needed. Liz J

    10/24/2017 12:06:07
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Chris Brooks
    3. I only read a very little Latin found in church books and have a problem with abbreviations. I can only say it refers to Samuel Bachiler as at some time minister? If this is dated 1653 and the could had been under his ministry in Brazil 18 years then he and the couple would have been there ca 1635. I found that there was a Samuel Bachiler, born in 1597 in England, son of a minister who moved to the Netherlands and Samuel was a minister at Gorchum and some think he died there in 1641 but if he is the same person (and likely so) he moved to Brazil and lived there until at least 1653 when the colony was surrendered. There might be more information of interest in the Brazil file at the Stadarchief. Chris On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> wrote: > Chris, > > Interesting. How is your Latin? This may be the same fellow then: > > 1653 > > #831 Friday, 2 [=12, N.S.] December. Samuel Bachiler, tunc temporis > ibidem Eccls. --------(b) Henry Riddiard, and Mary his wife, have lived > 'for these eighteen yeares last past (or thereabouts) under my ministrie in > Brazilia'........ (d) [Reciffe?] (p. 60-61) > > This one below is the one which was signed by Henricus Hermanius in my > previous post. > > 1654 > > #834 Johannes Canijn and Elisabeth Bachiler his wife (p. 61) > > Renee L. Dauven > > > > On 10/24/2017 11:52 AM, Chris Brooks wrote: > >> Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler >> signed >> another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English >> Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Chris Brooks <brookskcmo@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Besides the records of baptisms for Recife, the Gemeente Amsterdam >>> Stadsarchief has 94 pages of correspondence relating to the church in >>> Recife from 1637 to 1653. In scanning there are references to several >>> Predikanten and Sickentroosers (Comforters of the Sick) including one >>> Predikant named Astetten or Asteffen in 1647. You might want to check out >>> these records as well. >>> >>> It's also interesting that there is reference in 1645 a letter signed by >>> Samuel Bachiler of the 'Classis Pernambuchensis" as if a separate Classis >>> had been created in Brazil. It is also signed by Jodocus Astetten V.D. M. >>> (Minister of the Word of God). I also see a reference to a Domine >>> Nicolaus >>> Vogelius as well as several men who signed documents as 'scribe' of the >>> Classis Pernambuchensis. So it may be there were several different >>> ministers in the different settlements in Brazil which raises the >>> question >>> as to whether the baptismals records referred to as baptisms of Recife or >>> Pernambuco might not be a compilation of baptisms by various ministers >>> from >>> different settlements recorded by a Classis scribe. >>> >>> Here's a link to the records at the Stadtarchief. >>> >>> https://archief.amsterdam/inventarissen/inventaris/379. >>> nl.html#A24779000002 >>> >>> >>> Take care >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Liz, >>>> >>>> It looks to me like you may have had a more productive day than I >>>> did >>>> yesterday. >>>> >>>> I did learn something that may change part of my calculations. The >>>> Central Bureau is NOT a direct successor to the Genalogish en Heraldisch >>>> Archief, the organization that published the Algemeen Nederlandsch >>>> Familieblad. The latter group was the creation of A. A. Vorsterman Van >>>> Oyen and appears to have faded out with his death in 1912. The current >>>> group called the Central Bureau wasn't created until 1945. So while >>>> Wasch >>>> may have placed his copy in Van Oyen's library in 1888, there is not a >>>> direct line from it to the Central Bureau. So that knocks out one of >>>> the >>>> assumptions that I had made...and makes things even more convoluted. >>>> >>>> Also, so far, I have not found a list of the ministers at Recife. >>>> In >>>> Hessel's "Register of the Attestations..." from the DRC at Austin >>>> Friars, >>>> London (p. 61), I found references to two letters of attestation from >>>> the >>>> Recife church, both dated 27 Jan 1654. One was signed by Henricus >>>> Hermannius, Eccls.(Ecclesiastes) at Reciffe, in the n.(name) of the >>>> Cons.(Consistitory) and the other by Petrus Ongena, Eccls Reciffensis, >>>> in >>>> the n. of the Cons. (Polhemus was assigned to Itamarco, not Recife.) >>>> >>>> But I think that the most intesting thing at the moment is what I >>>> didn't find. I can not find one piece of biographical information on >>>> C. J. >>>> Wasch. No birth, no death, no history of employment, residences, >>>> education, no parents, no spouse, nothing. I did find three other >>>> pieces >>>> of bibliography: >>>> >>>> "Het doppboek der Englesche gemeente te Dordrecht van 1629-1811," De >>>> Nederlandsche Leeuw, 5 (1887), 104-06. >>>> >>>> "Braziliaansche pretensiën", in: 'De Nederlandsche Leeuw', 1887, >>>> pag.75-77; de gegevens zijn hieronder in een bestand opgenomen >>>> >>>> and in "Familieblad" 2: 103 there is a genealogy of the Plaat family >>>> prepared by C. J. Wasch and at page 56 there is a notice written by >>>> Wasch >>>> of the 25th anniversary jubilee of Dr. C. Plaat, minister at the Eveng. >>>> Lutheran church of Rotterdam in 1885. >>>> >>>> Not much to show for hours toiling over the keyboard... >>>> >>>> Renee L. Dauven >>>> >>>> >>>> On 10/23/2017 5:22 PM, E Johnson wrote: >>>> >>>> Okay. I was searching in the (Dutch) Nationaal Archief. >>>>> >>>>> To see what I meant in my last message, go here: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/index/nt00359/q/zoekterm/wes >>>>> t%20indische/q/comments/1/pagina/2 >>>>> >>>>> There should be 74 pages of hits available to browse through here. Use >>>>> the little arrows at the bottom to find the nexrt set of hits. >>>>> >>>>> These may not be meetings of church elders, but rather they may be >>>>> letters to West Indies Company personnel. I do think I found at least >>>>> one set of minutes, though. >>>>> >>>>> There are also letters from various Predikants (ministers) that I have >>>>> just come to at the 29th page of hits, that I will check out. >>>>> >>>>> Liz J >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> ************** >>>> New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ >>>> >>>> New Netherland Books >>>> http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Chris Brooks >>> Kansas City, Missouri >>> 816-363-1831 <(816)%20363-1831> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Chris Brooks Kansas City, Missouri 816-363-1831

    10/24/2017 10:35:21
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. On 10/24/2017 11:52 AM, Chris Brooks wrote: > Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler signed > another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English > Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. Chris,     I evidently didn't save the full name of this source.  Sorry. But it drew on John Nieuhoff who lived in Brazil from 1640 to 1649 and wrote about the place on his return.  At that time he states that at Recife or Pernambuco there were about 400 Protestants, Dutch, French and English and there were three Dutch ministers, besides one who served on board the fleet and on inland expeditions; and one French and one English minister.  So evidently they might sometimes substitute for one another. Renee L. Dauven

    10/24/2017 08:40:18
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Chris Brooks
    3. Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler signed another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Chris Brooks <brookskcmo@gmail.com> wrote: > Besides the records of baptisms for Recife, the Gemeente Amsterdam > Stadsarchief has 94 pages of correspondence relating to the church in > Recife from 1637 to 1653. In scanning there are references to several > Predikanten and Sickentroosers (Comforters of the Sick) including one > Predikant named Astetten or Asteffen in 1647. You might want to check out > these records as well. > > It's also interesting that there is reference in 1645 a letter signed by > Samuel Bachiler of the 'Classis Pernambuchensis" as if a separate Classis > had been created in Brazil. It is also signed by Jodocus Astetten V.D. M. > (Minister of the Word of God). I also see a reference to a Domine Nicolaus > Vogelius as well as several men who signed documents as 'scribe' of the > Classis Pernambuchensis. So it may be there were several different > ministers in the different settlements in Brazil which raises the question > as to whether the baptismals records referred to as baptisms of Recife or > Pernambuco might not be a compilation of baptisms by various ministers from > different settlements recorded by a Classis scribe. > > Here's a link to the records at the Stadtarchief. > > https://archief.amsterdam/inventarissen/inventaris/379. > nl.html#A24779000002 > > > Take care > > Chris > > On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> > wrote: > >> Liz, >> >> It looks to me like you may have had a more productive day than I did >> yesterday. >> >> I did learn something that may change part of my calculations. The >> Central Bureau is NOT a direct successor to the Genalogish en Heraldisch >> Archief, the organization that published the Algemeen Nederlandsch >> Familieblad. The latter group was the creation of A. A. Vorsterman Van >> Oyen and appears to have faded out with his death in 1912. The current >> group called the Central Bureau wasn't created until 1945. So while Wasch >> may have placed his copy in Van Oyen's library in 1888, there is not a >> direct line from it to the Central Bureau. So that knocks out one of the >> assumptions that I had made...and makes things even more convoluted. >> >> Also, so far, I have not found a list of the ministers at Recife. In >> Hessel's "Register of the Attestations..." from the DRC at Austin Friars, >> London (p. 61), I found references to two letters of attestation from the >> Recife church, both dated 27 Jan 1654. One was signed by Henricus >> Hermannius, Eccls.(Ecclesiastes) at Reciffe, in the n.(name) of the >> Cons.(Consistitory) and the other by Petrus Ongena, Eccls Reciffensis, in >> the n. of the Cons. (Polhemus was assigned to Itamarco, not Recife.) >> >> But I think that the most intesting thing at the moment is what I >> didn't find. I can not find one piece of biographical information on C. J. >> Wasch. No birth, no death, no history of employment, residences, >> education, no parents, no spouse, nothing. I did find three other pieces >> of bibliography: >> >> "Het doppboek der Englesche gemeente te Dordrecht van 1629-1811," De >> Nederlandsche Leeuw, 5 (1887), 104-06. >> >> "Braziliaansche pretensiën", in: 'De Nederlandsche Leeuw', 1887, >> pag.75-77; de gegevens zijn hieronder in een bestand opgenomen >> >> and in "Familieblad" 2: 103 there is a genealogy of the Plaat family >> prepared by C. J. Wasch and at page 56 there is a notice written by Wasch >> of the 25th anniversary jubilee of Dr. C. Plaat, minister at the Eveng. >> Lutheran church of Rotterdam in 1885. >> >> Not much to show for hours toiling over the keyboard... >> >> Renee L. Dauven >> >> >> On 10/23/2017 5:22 PM, E Johnson wrote: >> >>> Okay. I was searching in the (Dutch) Nationaal Archief. >>> >>> To see what I meant in my last message, go here: >>> >>> http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/index/nt00359/q/zoekterm/wes >>> t%20indische/q/comments/1/pagina/2 >>> >>> There should be 74 pages of hits available to browse through here. Use >>> the little arrows at the bottom to find the nexrt set of hits. >>> >>> These may not be meetings of church elders, but rather they may be >>> letters to West Indies Company personnel. I do think I found at least >>> one set of minutes, though. >>> >>> There are also letters from various Predikants (ministers) that I have >>> just come to at the 29th page of hits, that I will check out. >>> >>> Liz J >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ************** >> New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ >> >> New Netherland Books >> http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > Chris Brooks > Kansas City, Missouri > 816-363-1831 <(816)%20363-1831> > -- Chris Brooks Kansas City, Missouri 816-363-1831

    10/24/2017 07:52:04
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Chris Brooks
    3. Besides the records of baptisms for Recife, the Gemeente Amsterdam Stadsarchief has 94 pages of correspondence relating to the church in Recife from 1637 to 1653. In scanning there are references to several Predikanten and Sickentroosers (Comforters of the Sick) including one Predikant named Astetten or Asteffen in 1647. You might want to check out these records as well. It's also interesting that there is reference in 1645 a letter signed by Samuel Bachiler of the 'Classis Pernambuchensis" as if a separate Classis had been created in Brazil. It is also signed by Jodocus Astetten V.D. M. (Minister of the Word of God). I also see a reference to a Domine Nicolaus Vogelius as well as several men who signed documents as 'scribe' of the Classis Pernambuchensis. So it may be there were several different ministers in the different settlements in Brazil which raises the question as to whether the baptismals records referred to as baptisms of Recife or Pernambuco might not be a compilation of baptisms by various ministers from different settlements recorded by a Classis scribe. Here's a link to the records at the Stadtarchief. https://archief.amsterdam/inventarissen/inventaris/379.nl.html#A24779000002 Take care Chris On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> wrote: > Liz, > > It looks to me like you may have had a more productive day than I did > yesterday. > > I did learn something that may change part of my calculations. The > Central Bureau is NOT a direct successor to the Genalogish en Heraldisch > Archief, the organization that published the Algemeen Nederlandsch > Familieblad. The latter group was the creation of A. A. Vorsterman Van > Oyen and appears to have faded out with his death in 1912. The current > group called the Central Bureau wasn't created until 1945. So while Wasch > may have placed his copy in Van Oyen's library in 1888, there is not a > direct line from it to the Central Bureau. So that knocks out one of the > assumptions that I had made...and makes things even more convoluted. > > Also, so far, I have not found a list of the ministers at Recife. In > Hessel's "Register of the Attestations..." from the DRC at Austin Friars, > London (p. 61), I found references to two letters of attestation from the > Recife church, both dated 27 Jan 1654. One was signed by Henricus > Hermannius, Eccls.(Ecclesiastes) at Reciffe, in the n.(name) of the > Cons.(Consistitory) and the other by Petrus Ongena, Eccls Reciffensis, in > the n. of the Cons. (Polhemus was assigned to Itamarco, not Recife.) > > But I think that the most intesting thing at the moment is what I > didn't find. I can not find one piece of biographical information on C. J. > Wasch. No birth, no death, no history of employment, residences, > education, no parents, no spouse, nothing. I did find three other pieces > of bibliography: > > "Het doppboek der Englesche gemeente te Dordrecht van 1629-1811," De > Nederlandsche Leeuw, 5 (1887), 104-06. > > "Braziliaansche pretensiën", in: 'De Nederlandsche Leeuw', 1887, > pag.75-77; de gegevens zijn hieronder in een bestand opgenomen > > and in "Familieblad" 2: 103 there is a genealogy of the Plaat family > prepared by C. J. Wasch and at page 56 there is a notice written by Wasch > of the 25th anniversary jubilee of Dr. C. Plaat, minister at the Eveng. > Lutheran church of Rotterdam in 1885. > > Not much to show for hours toiling over the keyboard... > > Renee L. Dauven > > > On 10/23/2017 5:22 PM, E Johnson wrote: > >> Okay. I was searching in the (Dutch) Nationaal Archief. >> >> To see what I meant in my last message, go here: >> >> http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/index/nt00359/q/zoekterm/ >> west%20indische/q/comments/1/pagina/2 >> >> There should be 74 pages of hits available to browse through here. Use >> the little arrows at the bottom to find the nexrt set of hits. >> >> These may not be meetings of church elders, but rather they may be >> letters to West Indies Company personnel. I do think I found at least >> one set of minutes, though. >> >> There are also letters from various Predikants (ministers) that I have >> just come to at the 29th page of hits, that I will check out. >> >> Liz J >> >> > > > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Chris Brooks Kansas City, Missouri 816-363-1831

    10/24/2017 07:03:57
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. Chris,     Interesting.  How is your Latin?  This may be the same fellow then: 1653 #831  Friday, 2 [=12, N.S.]  December.  Samuel Bachiler, tunc temporis ibidem Eccls. --------(b) Henry Riddiard, and Mary his wife, have lived 'for these eighteen yeares last past (or thereabouts) under my ministrie in Brazilia'........ (d) [Reciffe?]  (p. 60-61)     This one below is the one which was signed by Henricus Hermanius in my previous post. 1654 #834 Johannes Canijn and Elisabeth Bachiler his wife (p. 61) Renee L. Dauven On 10/24/2017 11:52 AM, Chris Brooks wrote: > Interesting but I found in another document that the Samuel Bachiler signed > another document as 'Ecclisiasurn Anglicanus' likely meaning English > Minister. I wasn't expecting an English minister in Dutch Brazil. > > > On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Chris Brooks <brookskcmo@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Besides the records of baptisms for Recife, the Gemeente Amsterdam >> Stadsarchief has 94 pages of correspondence relating to the church in >> Recife from 1637 to 1653. In scanning there are references to several >> Predikanten and Sickentroosers (Comforters of the Sick) including one >> Predikant named Astetten or Asteffen in 1647. You might want to check out >> these records as well. >> >> It's also interesting that there is reference in 1645 a letter signed by >> Samuel Bachiler of the 'Classis Pernambuchensis" as if a separate Classis >> had been created in Brazil. It is also signed by Jodocus Astetten V.D. M. >> (Minister of the Word of God). I also see a reference to a Domine Nicolaus >> Vogelius as well as several men who signed documents as 'scribe' of the >> Classis Pernambuchensis. So it may be there were several different >> ministers in the different settlements in Brazil which raises the question >> as to whether the baptismals records referred to as baptisms of Recife or >> Pernambuco might not be a compilation of baptisms by various ministers from >> different settlements recorded by a Classis scribe. >> >> Here's a link to the records at the Stadtarchief. >> >> https://archief.amsterdam/inventarissen/inventaris/379. >> nl.html#A24779000002 >> >> >> Take care >> >> Chris >> >> On Tue, Oct 24, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Liz, >>> >>> It looks to me like you may have had a more productive day than I did >>> yesterday. >>> >>> I did learn something that may change part of my calculations. The >>> Central Bureau is NOT a direct successor to the Genalogish en Heraldisch >>> Archief, the organization that published the Algemeen Nederlandsch >>> Familieblad. The latter group was the creation of A. A. Vorsterman Van >>> Oyen and appears to have faded out with his death in 1912. The current >>> group called the Central Bureau wasn't created until 1945. So while Wasch >>> may have placed his copy in Van Oyen's library in 1888, there is not a >>> direct line from it to the Central Bureau. So that knocks out one of the >>> assumptions that I had made...and makes things even more convoluted. >>> >>> Also, so far, I have not found a list of the ministers at Recife. In >>> Hessel's "Register of the Attestations..." from the DRC at Austin Friars, >>> London (p. 61), I found references to two letters of attestation from the >>> Recife church, both dated 27 Jan 1654. One was signed by Henricus >>> Hermannius, Eccls.(Ecclesiastes) at Reciffe, in the n.(name) of the >>> Cons.(Consistitory) and the other by Petrus Ongena, Eccls Reciffensis, in >>> the n. of the Cons. (Polhemus was assigned to Itamarco, not Recife.) >>> >>> But I think that the most intesting thing at the moment is what I >>> didn't find. I can not find one piece of biographical information on C. J. >>> Wasch. No birth, no death, no history of employment, residences, >>> education, no parents, no spouse, nothing. I did find three other pieces >>> of bibliography: >>> >>> "Het doppboek der Englesche gemeente te Dordrecht van 1629-1811," De >>> Nederlandsche Leeuw, 5 (1887), 104-06. >>> >>> "Braziliaansche pretensiën", in: 'De Nederlandsche Leeuw', 1887, >>> pag.75-77; de gegevens zijn hieronder in een bestand opgenomen >>> >>> and in "Familieblad" 2: 103 there is a genealogy of the Plaat family >>> prepared by C. J. Wasch and at page 56 there is a notice written by Wasch >>> of the 25th anniversary jubilee of Dr. C. Plaat, minister at the Eveng. >>> Lutheran church of Rotterdam in 1885. >>> >>> Not much to show for hours toiling over the keyboard... >>> >>> Renee L. Dauven >>> >>> >>> On 10/23/2017 5:22 PM, E Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> Okay. I was searching in the (Dutch) Nationaal Archief. >>>> >>>> To see what I meant in my last message, go here: >>>> >>>> http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/index/nt00359/q/zoekterm/wes >>>> t%20indische/q/comments/1/pagina/2 >>>> >>>> There should be 74 pages of hits available to browse through here. Use >>>> the little arrows at the bottom to find the nexrt set of hits. >>>> >>>> These may not be meetings of church elders, but rather they may be >>>> letters to West Indies Company personnel. I do think I found at least >>>> one set of minutes, though. >>>> >>>> There are also letters from various Predikants (ministers) that I have >>>> just come to at the 29th page of hits, that I will check out. >>>> >>>> Liz J >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ************** >>> New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ >>> >>> New Netherland Books >>> http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Brooks >> Kansas City, Missouri >> 816-363-1831 <(816)%20363-1831> >> > >

    10/24/2017 06:57:06
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. Liz,     It looks to me like you may have had a more productive day than I did yesterday.     I did learn something that may change part of my calculations.  The Central Bureau is NOT a direct successor to the Genalogish en Heraldisch Archief, the organization that published the Algemeen Nederlandsch Familieblad.  The latter group was the creation of A. A. Vorsterman Van Oyen and appears to have faded out with his death in 1912.  The current group called the Central Bureau wasn't created until 1945.  So while Wasch may have placed his copy in Van Oyen's library in 1888, there is not a direct line from it to the Central Bureau.  So that knocks out one of the assumptions that I had made...and makes things even more convoluted.     Also, so far, I have not found a list of the ministers at Recife.  In Hessel's "Register of the Attestations..." from the DRC at Austin Friars, London (p. 61), I found references to two letters of attestation from the Recife church, both dated 27 Jan 1654.  One was signed by Henricus Hermannius, Eccls.(Ecclesiastes) at Reciffe, in the n.(name) of the Cons.(Consistitory) and the other by Petrus Ongena, Eccls Reciffensis, in the n. of the Cons. (Polhemus was assigned to Itamarco, not Recife.)     But I think that the most intesting thing at the moment is what I didn't find.  I can not find one piece of biographical information on C. J. Wasch.  No birth, no death, no history of employment, residences, education, no parents, no spouse, nothing.  I did find three other pieces of bibliography: "Het doppboek der Englesche gemeente te Dordrecht van 1629-1811," De Nederlandsche Leeuw, 5 (1887), 104-06. "Braziliaansche pretensiën", in: 'De Nederlandsche Leeuw', 1887, pag.75-77; de gegevens zijn hieronder in een bestand opgenomen and in "Familieblad" 2: 103 there is a genealogy of the Plaat family prepared by C. J. Wasch and at page 56 there is a notice written by Wasch of the 25th anniversary jubilee of Dr. C. Plaat, minister at the Eveng.  Lutheran church of Rotterdam in 1885.     Not much to show for hours toiling over the keyboard... Renee L. Dauven On 10/23/2017 5:22 PM, E Johnson wrote: > Okay. I was searching in the (Dutch) Nationaal Archief. > > To see what I meant in my last message, go here: > > http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/index/nt00359/q/zoekterm/west%20indische/q/comments/1/pagina/2 > > There should be 74 pages of hits available to browse through here. Use > the little arrows at the bottom to find the nexrt set of hits. > > These may not be meetings of church elders, but rather they may be > letters to West Indies Company personnel. I do think I found at least > one set of minutes, though. > > There are also letters from various Predikants (ministers) that I have > just come to at the 29th page of hits, that I will check out. > > Liz J >

    10/24/2017 04:14:45
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. E Johnson
    3. Okay. I was searching in the (Dutch) Nationaal Archief. To see what I meant in my last message, go here: http://www.gahetna.nl/collectie/index/nt00359/q/zoekterm/west%20indische/q/comments/1/pagina/2 There should be 74 pages of hits available to browse through here. Use the little arrows at the bottom to find the nexrt set of hits. These may not be meetings of church elders, but rather they may be letters to West Indies Company personnel. I do think I found at least one set of minutes, though. There are also letters from various Predikants (ministers) that I have just come to at the 29th page of hits, that I will check out. Liz J Once you find something you want to look into, click the link, and on the page that comes up, click where it says Bekijk een grotere versie van de afbeelding (in jpeg). The images will appear in your browser,. If necessary to zoom in more than they will here, a right-click will download these to your computer, where you can open them in any graphics program you may have. Liz J On 23/10/2017, E Johnson <iris.gates@gmail.com> wrote: > Please no,.Not Mrs. Petersen. Not Mrs. Anything. > > Umm, I did have a few more thoughts. One hint might be in the seal or > cartouche that I described yesterday, that is on what appears to be > the title page of the filmed and scanned book of baptism records that > is under discussion here. If you are looking at the microfilm version > in Familysearch, see image 242. Thus seems to be stamped on, in ink, > although it is hard to tell in the B/W film images I am seeing. This > has an oval shape and there is an empty space in the middle that looks > like it has enough room to put a few initials, or a date, although > there is nothing written in there. The words around the edge say > Classicaal Bestuur Van Amsterdam. I believe this means the Amsterdam > Classis of the Dutch Reformed Church. > > This is why I keep thinking that these questions should be addressed > to a research librarian or historian of the the Amsterdam Classis. One > might hope that the chief archivist of the Amsterdam Classis could > help with the questions concerning this book of baptisms. That is what > L.P. de Boer (never mind his disrepute) was looking for when he sent > letters to his two different correspondents back in November and > December or 1921. This is still a valid question, and it is a > ***research question*** that needs to be addressed to someone who > would be in a position to know, or who can point to another person who > might know. This is what research librarians are for, after all. > > The other thing I was thinking is probably a long shot, but sometimes > long shots come in. This has to do with some records of meetings of > Dutch Reform church officials that took place in Brazil during the > time the West Indies company was there. There are records that still > exist in an archive in Den Haag, and the pages are now in scanned form > that are available to view online. I would have to go back and > relocate what archive I was in when I found these, but typing into the > search "west indische companie" (I think what I used), there were 74 > pages of hits. I checked out all 74 pages, browsing the titles mostly. > And among those hits as I looked at the titles that came up, I > searched through my browser search function for 'kerk'. That is how I > found records of these various meetings... there were six or eight of > them, or maybe ten at the most. These records could be examined for a > couple of reasons. One good reason to look at these might be to see > who was recording the minutes of these meetings, and to see his > handwriting. I am sorry I didn't save the URL where I found these > records, but at the time, these were not wnat I thought I wanted. But > with a little more persistence here, or maybe a look through my > browser history of several days ago, I might be able to come up with a > link. > > How's that? > > Liz J > > > > > On 23/10/2017, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> wrote: >> On 10/22/2017 9:33 PM, E Johnson wrote: >>> It would probably be good to obtain a very clear description of what >>> the person (Yvette) actually means by 'original'. Does that mean "We >>> made scans of the pages of the book that we were originally given"? >>> >>     Oh, boy!  That just took me down another memory rabbit hole!  I >> probably shouldn't admit this but I pretty much flunked out of debate in >> high school as I couldn't think fast enough on my feet and needed to >> "ponder" things.  But the one thing that I do remember from all of that, >> decades ago, was the debate coach preaching: "Always, first, define your >> terms!" >>     And with that in mind, I'm going to ponder all of this, and see if >> I can't come up with a coherent summary...and try defining the >> terms...and try to not imagine Liz as Mrs. Petersen... >> >>     Thanks to all...and if you should have a sudden insight or even >> just another thought, feel free to throw it into the pot. >> >> Renee L. Dauven >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ************** >> New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ >> >> New Netherland Books >> http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

    10/23/2017 02:22:33
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. E Johnson
    3. Please no,.Not Mrs. Petersen. Not Mrs. Anything. Umm, I did have a few more thoughts. One hint might be in the seal or cartouche that I described yesterday, that is on what appears to be the title page of the filmed and scanned book of baptism records that is under discussion here. If you are looking at the microfilm version in Familysearch, see image 242. Thus seems to be stamped on, in ink, although it is hard to tell in the B/W film images I am seeing. This has an oval shape and there is an empty space in the middle that looks like it has enough room to put a few initials, or a date, although there is nothing written in there. The words around the edge say Classicaal Bestuur Van Amsterdam. I believe this means the Amsterdam Classis of the Dutch Reformed Church. This is why I keep thinking that these questions should be addressed to a research librarian or historian of the the Amsterdam Classis. One might hope that the chief archivist of the Amsterdam Classis could help with the questions concerning this book of baptisms. That is what L.P. de Boer (never mind his disrepute) was looking for when he sent letters to his two different correspondents back in November and December or 1921. This is still a valid question, and it is a ***research question*** that needs to be addressed to someone who would be in a position to know, or who can point to another person who might know. This is what research librarians are for, after all. The other thing I was thinking is probably a long shot, but sometimes long shots come in. This has to do with some records of meetings of Dutch Reform church officials that took place in Brazil during the time the West Indies company was there. There are records that still exist in an archive in Den Haag, and the pages are now in scanned form that are available to view online. I would have to go back and relocate what archive I was in when I found these, but typing into the search "west indische companie" (I think what I used), there were 74 pages of hits. I checked out all 74 pages, browsing the titles mostly. And among those hits as I looked at the titles that came up, I searched through my browser search function for 'kerk'. That is how I found records of these various meetings... there were six or eight of them, or maybe ten at the most. These records could be examined for a couple of reasons. One good reason to look at these might be to see who was recording the minutes of these meetings, and to see his handwriting. I am sorry I didn't save the URL where I found these records, but at the time, these were not wnat I thought I wanted. But with a little more persistence here, or maybe a look through my browser history of several days ago, I might be able to come up with a link. How's that? Liz J On 23/10/2017, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> wrote: > On 10/22/2017 9:33 PM, E Johnson wrote: >> It would probably be good to obtain a very clear description of what >> the person (Yvette) actually means by 'original'. Does that mean "We >> made scans of the pages of the book that we were originally given"? >> >     Oh, boy!  That just took me down another memory rabbit hole!  I > probably shouldn't admit this but I pretty much flunked out of debate in > high school as I couldn't think fast enough on my feet and needed to > "ponder" things.  But the one thing that I do remember from all of that, > decades ago, was the debate coach preaching: "Always, first, define your > terms!" >     And with that in mind, I'm going to ponder all of this, and see if > I can't come up with a coherent summary...and try defining the > terms...and try to not imagine Liz as Mrs. Petersen... > >     Thanks to all...and if you should have a sudden insight or even > just another thought, feel free to throw it into the pot. > > Renee L. Dauven > > > > > > > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    10/23/2017 01:50:53
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. On 10/22/2017 9:33 PM, E Johnson wrote: > It would probably be good to obtain a very clear description of what > the person (Yvette) actually means by 'original'. Does that mean "We > made scans of the pages of the book that we were originally given"? >     Oh, boy!  That just took me down another memory rabbit hole!  I probably shouldn't admit this but I pretty much flunked out of debate in high school as I couldn't think fast enough on my feet and needed to "ponder" things.  But the one thing that I do remember from all of that, decades ago, was the debate coach preaching: "Always, first, define your terms!"     And with that in mind, I'm going to ponder all of this, and see if I can't come up with a coherent summary...and try defining the terms...and try to not imagine Liz as Mrs. Petersen...     Thanks to all...and if you should have a sudden insight or even just another thought, feel free to throw it into the pot. Renee L. Dauven

    10/23/2017 10:09:50
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Renee L. Dauven
    3. On 10/23/2017 5:48 AM, Olive Tree Genealogy wrote: > The discussion is interesting and important. I thought since you and Cor > and Renee are apparently not part of the Facebook group, and Yvette and > Chris don't appear to be on this mailing list, it would be good if I could > facilitate an ongoing discussion as best as possible.     I think that you have done just fine, Lorine, and am grateful to you for doing so.     I checked the archives for the list just a bit ago (I'm having problems with my ISP adding extra words to my subject line) and noticed that the traffic on the list had jumped from one email about every 4-6 months to 25 already for the month!  It has been an interesting discussion and I hope that others have enjoyed it even if they haven't participated. > Also - I had a thought about the question as to WHY the original register > might end up in Holland. When the Portuguese took over in 1654 it is my > understanding that the Dutch were given time to leave, and that they left > in stages. It makes sense then that whoever was the Domine at the time > would pack up the church register and carry it back to Holland with his > other possessions. The Dutch would certainly not leave such registers for > the Portuguese. >     In line with this, I was told recently that in the 19th and 20th century, that many churches turned over their records to various archives and museums.  If that long ago minister brought the records to an Amsterdam church where they sat for years, they might very well have ended up in the Amsterdam Archives.      A second scenario is that the church records were packed up with WIC records when the Dutch left Recife.  We only have the baptismal records, the marriage and burial records seem to have been long lost, perhaps in the great paper sell-off of the WIC records. The baptismal records could have escaped that fate and ended up with other WIC papers in the Hague.     Either one seems just as possible on its face. Renee L. Dauven

    10/23/2017 09:52:30
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. E Johnson
    3. Thanks for te clarification, Lorine. It was difficult for me to conceive of what was going on on the other platform. What I was experiencing here was finding little snippets of discussion coming from elsewhere, and perhaps the Facebook group was experiencing something like that, too. It is an interesting idea about the Dominee. I had understood that he was Do. Polhemius, and that in 1654, he and a number of Jewish persons who had been living in Brazil had departed on one ship, while Mrs.Polhemius left for Holland on another ship. Do. Polhemius chose to remain in New Netherland (in North America), where his wife eventually was able to rejoin him. Of course, this doesn't address the question over what became of any church records brought out of Brazil in 1654. I still hope that somewhere exists an explanation of the creation of the book of baptisms that took place in Brazil, the one that was filmed in 1650 at Amsterdam, and later scanned in Amsterdam. It would be nice to compare these records to a manuscript written by Do. Polhemius, in case he himself wrote out the Brazil baptisms. But I don't think that can be, since Polhemius served in Brazil for 18 years ending in 1654 (that should be 1636-1654), while the handwriting in the book is the same from 1633 until October 1650. It's still hard to imagine that someone's handwriting could remain so amazingly stable, so perfectly consistent, over an 18-year period. This is my main problem with seeing this book (the one that was filmed and then scanned) as the actual original. I can imagine that eventually, or perhaps even in 1654, the original book made its way to the Amsterdam Classis, which governed the Dutch Reformed church. Perhaps it is Wasch's vague description of where (someone) came across the book of Brazil baptisms in the late 1880s that is making things so unclear. And no matter where these questions may currently being discussed, perhaps an archivist of the Amsterdam Classis would finally be able to give a definitive answer. Liz J On 23/10/2017, Olive Tree Genealogy <olivetreegenealogy@gmail.com> wrote: > Liz et al - > > Yvette Hoitink is a very well respected Dutch genealogist and former > archivist. Here is her website where you can familiarize yourself with her > credentials. > > https://www.dutchgenealogy.nl/ > > There are many questions but we at least should extend the courtesy of > opening our minds to Yvette's comments on this issue. > > The discussion is interesting and important. I thought since you and Cor > and Renee are apparently not part of the Facebook group, and Yvette and > Chris don't appear to be on this mailing list, it would be good if I could > facilitate an ongoing discussion as best as possible. > > Also - I had a thought about the question as to WHY the original register > might end up in Holland. When the Portuguese took over in 1654 it is my > understanding that the Dutch were given time to leave, and that they left > in stages. It makes sense then that whoever was the Domine at the time > would pack up the church register and carry it back to Holland with his > other possessions. The Dutch would certainly not leave such registers for > the Portuguese. > > Lorine > > > > On Mon, Oct 23, 2017 at 12:33 AM, E Johnson <iris.gates@gmail.com> wrote: > >> It would probably be good to obtain a very clear description of what >> the person (Yvette) actually means by 'original'. Does that mean "We >> made scans of the pages of the book that we were originally given"? >> >> Also, this is the weekend; it is probably not possible to see this >> book (the one that was filmed and the one the SAA made PDF images of) >> at the Stadsarchief. Certainly it is not possible to research the >> provinence of any specific book over the weekend. It may never be >> possible to physically see this book there in any case --I had been >> informed that records that had already been scanned were removed from >> available circulation; were no longer consult-able in person. >> >> Also, what was all of that earlier about Wasch, and the professor from >> Brazil in 1880-something, who came to Den Haag in order to obtain >> records of Brazil history for his country? That made sense before, but >> these comments being transmitted from elsewhere are making things >> about as clear as mud. >> >> Renee's text from yesterday (I think it was yesterday!): >> >> > In 1886, the Instituto Arqueológico e Geográfico de Pernambucano, sent >> Professor Jose Hygino Duarte Pereira to search and analyze the documents >> refering to the period of the "Dutch invasion" in the city of the Hague at >> the National Archives. After two years of intense searching, he returned >> home with a fast amount of material (Wasch called it a "treasure trove" of >> information), particularly relating to the history of Pernambuco and >> Brazil, with special attention to the expedition of Joao Mauricio de >> Nassau >> in 1636. (Prince Johan Maurits van Nassau-Siegen). >> http://www.cartaforense.com.br/conteudo/colunas/jose- >> hygino-duarte-pereira-ministro-e-tradutor/15627 >> >> > C. J. Wasch mentions in his short introduction that Pereira had been >> doing this work and by 1888 had returned home. He then goes on to state >> that he (Wasch) had the good luck to find the baptismal register of the >> Recife church. (Wasch doesn't give credit for the find to Pereira but >> why >> else even mention him?) A copy was made for the Institute (in Brazil) and >> Wasch requested a copy to be included in the "Algemeen Nederlandsch >> Familieblad" published by the Genealogisch en Heraldirch Archief in >> 1888-1889. ( I think this Archief is now the Centraal Bureau voor >> Genealoogie in Den Haag.) Besides the serialized version in Familieblad, >> Wasch also published a book or pamphlet version in 1889. >> >> > The online catalog that I tried to consult for the Centraal Bureau, >> lists two different items with the title "Een doopregister der Hollander >> in >> Brazil", both listing C.J. Wasch as the author but only one with >> publication data that matches the 1889 booklet or pamplet. It is my >> assumption that the other is the copy made in 1888 at Wasch's request. >> >> > And that brings us to the Family History Library catalog which also >> lists two similiar titles: Doopregister der Hollanders in Brasilie, >> 1633-1654 "overgenomen door C. J. Wasch" and "Nederlands Hervormde Kerk. >> Pernambuco (Brasil)" (Main Author), Archief der Gemeente Amsterdam >> (Repository). According to the catalogue data for this latter entry, >> (which is the item for which I initially posted the link), this version >> was >> filmed in in 1950 at the Gemeente Archive in Amsterdam. From these two >> pieces, it would appear that the reason why the item listed in the >> Stadsarchief Amsterdam appears to be the same as the one on the FHL site, >> is because they are the same thing, just presented by two different >> organizations. >> >> > It is my assumption that item, from the Stadsarchief Amsterdam, is >> actually a reproduction of the item held by the Central Bureau voor >> Genealogie in Den Haag, especially in light of the following: >> "Gemeentelijke Archiefdienst Amsterdam: Archief Classis Amsterdam, >> Recife (Pernambuco), gereformeerd, dopen 1633-1654; deze dopen zijn >> eveneens op microfiche aanwezig bij het Centraal Bureau voor >> Genealogie in Den Haag; eveneens zijn deze gepubliceerd in: 'Algemeen >> Nederlandsch Familieblad', 1888 en 1889". >> .(http://geneaknowhow.net/script/dewit/brazil.html) >> >> > Above, the creators of the web-page seem to be saying that the Amsterdam >> Archives holdings are microfiche made of the holdings of the Centraal >> Bureau voor Genelogie which are, as I have stated above, the copy made in >> 1888 and then published in the works of Wasch. >> >> This is probably a question for the chief archivist of the SAA, and >> it's a serious, legitimate research question. Somewhere there should >> be a record of how this book came to be and how and when it appeared >> in Amsterdam. >> >> Meanwhile somewhere else (Den Haag?) should be an answer concerning >> whatever it was that Wasch (or Dr. Pereira) found around 1888, that >> was copied and sent to such-and such repositories. But the answers to >> these question won't be found here or on Facebook. >> >> Liz J >> >> >> >> On 22/10/2017, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> wrote: >> > I may be misunderstanding what Yvette is saying... >> > >> > I have to admit that Wasch is just a tad vague as to who found what >> > and where they found it...but then my Dutch is pretty much non-existent. >> > >> > Is what Yvette is trying to get through my thick skull is that >> > Wasch found the originals in Amsterdam and had copies made and sent to >> > the Professor and to the Central Bureau? Is that the jist of it? >> > >> > But if he did, why didn't he say so? >> > >> > Renee L. Dauven >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ************** >> > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ >> > >> > New Netherland Books >> > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ************** >> New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ >> >> New Netherland Books >> http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > -- > Lorine McGinnis Schulze > > Follow genealogy news on my blog > http://olivetreegenealogy.blogspot.com > Find me on Twitter http://twitter.com/LorineMS > Google+ at https://profiles.google.com/OliveTreeGenealogy > > Olive Tree Genealogy > http://olivetreegenealogy.com > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

    10/23/2017 05:25:59
    1. Re: [NEW-NETHERLAND] Amsterdam Archives?
    2. Olive Tree Genealogy
    3. Yvette replied to your question Renee: "That's what it seems like to me. I don't know if the CBG has a microfilm copy of the originals or a copy of the transcription made by Walsch." On Sun, Oct 22, 2017 at 11:34 PM, Renee L. Dauven <promine@web-ster.com> wrote: > I may be misunderstanding what Yvette is saying... > > I have to admit that Wasch is just a tad vague as to who found what > and where they found it...but then my Dutch is pretty much non-existent. > > Is what Yvette is trying to get through my thick skull is that Wasch > found the originals in Amsterdam and had copies made and sent to the > Professor and to the Central Bureau? Is that the jist of it? > > But if he did, why didn't he say so? > > Renee L. Dauven > > > > > ************** > New Netherland Resources http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/ > > New Netherland Books > http://olivetreegenealogy.com/nn/nnbooks.shtml > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > NEW-NETHERLAND-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- Lorine McGinnis Schulze Follow genealogy news on my blog http://olivetreegenealogy.blogspot.com Find me on Twitter http://twitter.com/LorineMS Google+ at https://profiles.google.com/OliveTreeGenealogy Olive Tree Genealogy http://olivetreegenealogy.com

    10/23/2017 02:49:45